Rolling Music Theory Thread

the whole record?

Just the epic title track but we might consider some different versions of it.

I'll be happy to share it here afterwards btw.

Nice!

This is the proposal we submitted, that outlines what we're going to do, with some diagrams: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qb88EO6jgXan_urdNYEebfE2gZemyrgL/view?usp=sharing

can anyone name examples of songs in the Lydian mode that don't resolve to (or hint at resolving to) Ionian/Aeolian/Mixolydian?

― macklin' rosie (crüt), Tuesday, June 24, 2014 5:31 PM (three years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTq6Tofmo7E

Oh cool. I love the Lydian mode.

My heard always hurts a little when I read classical terms I don’t know like 6/4 chords or Common Tone Diminished Seventh Chord.

Sorry I don’t have any Lydian examples. Feel like I once read in some music history book that long ago it was the default major mode, more so than the Ionian, but it’s been awhile,

Or maybe that which we now call Ionian used to be called Lydian.

Or that it was Glareanus who introduced the Ionian mode, which had already existed as a Lydian with a natural 4.

My heard always hurts a little when I read classical terms I don’t know like 6/4 chords or Common Tone Diminished Seventh Chord.

Are you looking for explanations of these?

Well, yeah

6/4 chord = a triad in second inversion (e.g. C/G). The numbers come from the intervals above the bass note. These chords have very specific functions (passing, arpeggio, neighbouring, cadential) in common practice music.

Common Tone Diminished Seventh Chord: this one's a little trickier. These are dim7 chords but they are not functional dim7 chords (in the way that viio7 is). They are chromatic harmonies and essentially serve to embellish functional harmonies, especially I or V. The root of the functional harmony is a common tone with the dim7 chord while the other voices are one step away. For instance, D#dim7 could work to embellish a C major chord in the key of C: C is a common tone between the two chords (7th of D#dim7, root of C), D# and F# are chromatic pitches one semitone away from E and G, respectively, and A resolves by step to G. These are mainly found in Romantic music.

So yeah, the CTo7 chord usually precedes the chord it is 'embellishing'.

They are found most often in major keys.

For an easy guitar example with proper voice leading, play D#dim7 on strings 4 to 1 on frets 1-2-1-2. Resolve to C/E on the same strings, voiced 2-0-1-3

That was helpful, thanks

This came about because of:
https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=105686

Aw, I remember Steve from the emusictheory forum.

I found some other posts on another thread where a guy mentioned his Royal Conservatory textbooks and I thought it might be you.

Also came upon mention of the Neapolitan 6th, if you have time to elucidate that as well.

On the Delcamp board? I think I did post there once or twice at one point; not sure if I discussed RCM books there. They're used by virtually everyone in Canada who studies classical music tbf.

Neapolitan 6th = a major triad built on bII, in first inversion. Most commonly used in minor keys. Functions as a pre-dominant; a chromatic substitute for ii (or iio6), m/l.

e.g. Bb/D in the key of Am. As it is spelled D-F-Bb, you can see how close it is to both iv (Dm) and iio6 (Bdim/D).

Thanks. m/l?

Yeah, there was no reason to qualify that. It's a chromatic alteration of or substitute for the supertonic triad.

Here's a functional progression with good voice-leading: Am (voiced 0-x-2-1-0 on strings 5 to 1) - Dm (0-2-3-1 on strings 4 to 1) - Bb/D (0-3-3-1 on strings 4 to 1) - E7 (2-1-3-0 on strings 4 to 1) - Am (voiced 0-x-2-1-0 on strings 5 to 1). In Roman numerals, that's Am: i-iv-N6-V7-i. You can both how smoothly it follows iv and how well it resolves to V7: the lowered ^2 falls by the interval of a diminished third to the raised ^7.

Or maybe that which we now call Ionian used to be called Lydian.

― The Great Atomic Power Ballad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, September 7, 2018 5:33 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is basically correct. in Ancient Greek music theory, the Lydian diatonic scale is more or less equivalent to today's Ionian mode.

https://www.amazon.com/Ptolemy-Harmonics-Translation-Commentary-Bibliotheca/dp/9004115919

I was fortunate to be able to check this out of my college library for an extended period of time. I wish it were cheaper; if I ever have $$$ I'll buy a copy. It's pretty fascinating stuff!

Thanks, Sund4r. I can certainly see the voice leading with my eye, but it still sounds a little, um, interesting when I try to play if

Play it

What is it that sounds off?

One of the most famous examples of the N6 chord is in the second half of m. 3 of the Moonlight Sonata: http://www.musictheoryexamples.com/neapolitan/N6j.html
There's another good example in m. 8 here: http://www.musictheoryexamples.com/neapolitan/N6h.html .
Really, any of the 'straightforward examples' here should work: http://www.musictheoryexamples.com/neapolitan.html

It doesn’t sound off, I’m just not used to listening to that particular sequence of changes

Would it be right to say that the progression from the minor iv chord to the Neapolitan to the dominant chord basically features a chromatic of A to Bb to B? That this is the main thing that's going on? That moving up to Bb suggests that you continue up to B and voila, there's your dominant chord?

basically features a chromatic MOVEMENT of A to Bb to B

No, as the supertonic is lowered in the Neapolitan (Bb instead of B in this example), it needs to resolve downwards, usually to the raised leading note (G#), not upwards to the diatonoc supertonic (B).

*diatonic

Some theorists would say the Bb is actually resolving to A (the tonic) via G#, which is probably more accurate. The key principle is that altered notes resolve in the direction of their alteration.

I just played it again and, sure enough, I wanted the Bb to go down to the G#.

Right on

Was there a thread somewhere about chord progressions that feel like an endless, unresolving loop? I have heard these referred to as “revolving door chord progressions”

That discussion got kicked off when fgti wrote an article about “Get Lucky,” iirc. Thought it might have been on this thread.

Ah, can see Sund4r cut and pasted some of the discussion from another thread here in 2014. Think that other thread is the one you are looking for.

That particular discussion on the Worst Music Writing Thread, looks like, but having trouble loading and linking to the starting point right now. Perhaps there were some other threads as well with discussions of similar topics.

The discussion I am thinking of started here: OK, is this the worst piece of music writing ever?
although the original link doesn't work anymore.

So I will put a fresh link here: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2014/03/daft_punk_s_get_lucky_explained_using_music_theory.html

I don't know that changing the key really makes things easier for the lay reader to understand

Fixed Do vs. movable Do, the most endless and tedious debate ever

The first time I read a piece of music described as "cyclical" it was about PiL's "Albatross" and I got really into the idea of chord progressions that work like ouroboroses. My favourite of all of these remains "In September" ('tis the season) and the way it only fleetingly alights on the I-chord and otherwise creates an aural effect of an endless and exciting Mario Kart track

I read an interesting discussion of cyclical chords and structures in a book called, believe it or not, What to Listen for in Rock: A Stylistic Analysis, by Ken Stephenson. Believe I may have posted something about it upthread.

So here's a Q, and I have an answer and an argument for it but I'm curious what others say:

What key is Trenchtown Rock in? Is it in (a) G (b) C or (c) switches between G and C?

Is this a variant on the “Sweet Home Alabama”/“Werewolves of London” conundrum?