Sorry this probably should have gone in the music theory thread.
― Chris, Friday, 21 April 2017 11:03 (seven years ago) link
No such thing as wrong though, surely?
― Punnet of the Grapes (Tom D.), Friday, 21 April 2017 11:21 (seven years ago) link
I thought that but then wondered if I was reading the circle incorrectly.
― Chris, Friday, 21 April 2017 11:33 (seven years ago) link
You seem to be over-thinking this guitar playing thing. Are you a keyboard player by any chance?
― Punnet of the Grapes (Tom D.), Friday, 21 April 2017 11:35 (seven years ago) link
Anyway, everyone has their own approach, I don't understand anything about music theory beyond the names of the notes on the fret.
― Punnet of the Grapes (Tom D.), Friday, 21 April 2017 11:37 (seven years ago) link
Having the chorus in a different key than the verse is not common practice. But hey you can do what you want
― calstars, Friday, 21 April 2017 14:15 (seven years ago) link
Using a Bb chord (or Major VII) does sound weird since you would expect a diminished 7 chord (B-D-F) but I've seen it used like that in pop music for sure. calstars and Tom are both right, basically
― Nhex, Friday, 21 April 2017 16:06 (seven years ago) link
McCartney does this for the middle 8 in Two of Us iirc (altho I guess that's in G?)
― Οὖτις, Friday, 21 April 2017 16:16 (seven years ago) link
That modulates to Bb major from G major, so that's a bit farther. Three of the seven notes are different, whereas in Chris' example - C major modulating to F major - Bb is the only note that's different.
Modulating to a key a fourth away or a fifth away is pretty common, I would say. And as soon as Bb is used, the song will start to suggest that the modulation has occurred, so that is something you can play with.
― timellison, Friday, 21 April 2017 16:56 (seven years ago) link
I should say - once Bb is used, it CAN sound like SOME modulation has taken place. That could be to any key that includes that note.
The other possibility is that Bb can be used as a modal variant. That's also pretty common and can be done without ever really straying from C as the key center.
― timellison, Friday, 21 April 2017 17:07 (seven years ago) link
Like here's a four-chord song in G and they're using F natural all the time. It never sounds like it's in any key other than G.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apGvd765dmk
― timellison, Friday, 21 April 2017 17:18 (seven years ago) link
the F sounds like a power chord w/just two notes (F/C) though which makes it a little easier to get away with
― Nhex, Friday, 21 April 2017 21:27 (seven years ago) link
The Beatles' "You've Got to Hide Your Love Away" is also in G. All kinds of F major chords in that and it's the full triad.
― timellison, Saturday, 22 April 2017 07:48 (seven years ago) link
The note A shouldn't create a problem, I don't think. It's part of the G major scale and part of three diatonic chords in G major (A minor, D major, and F# diminished).
― timellison, Saturday, 22 April 2017 07:52 (seven years ago) link
Tim is correct. If the chorus is in F, you don't need to use the C major collection, even in the strictest 18th century diatonic harmony exercise. b^7 is a common borrowed pitch (modal variant) in any case, even in classical music, let alone 20th century popular music. (Nearly every blues song includes it over the tonic.) "God Only Knows" begins on b^7!
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Saturday, 22 April 2017 20:59 (seven years ago) link
Sund4r (or anyone), you ever hear anyone talk about a "multi-plagal progression" or "secondary plagal progression?" I think that's a pretty common use of the bVII chord, to go from bVII to IV, and that would be a secondary plagal progression.
― timellison, Monday, 24 April 2017 01:17 (seven years ago) link
Similar of course to how we talk about secondary dominants.
― timellison, Monday, 24 April 2017 01:18 (seven years ago) link
Feel like somebody, like me, mentioned that on the theory thread.
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 April 2017 01:18 (seven years ago) link
Here: Rolling Music Theory Thread
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 April 2017 01:20 (seven years ago) link
This guy calls it (chorus of the Kinks' "Celluloid Heroes") a IV/IV chord.
http://johndorhauer.com/4-for-iv-part-i-secondary-plagal-progressions/
xp oh nice!
― timellison, Monday, 24 April 2017 01:24 (seven years ago) link
Better yet he calls the C chord in "Hey Joe" (key of E) a IV/IV/IV/IV chord!
― timellison, Monday, 24 April 2017 01:38 (seven years ago) link
I'm pretty sure there was an MTO article about this. I'll look for it.
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Monday, 24 April 2017 04:03 (seven years ago) link
Sorry, the paper on the other thread I was referring to was first linked here: Rolling Music Theory Threadand is Rolling Music Theory Thread. I believe you are quite familiar with the author's work.
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 April 2017 10:24 (seven years ago) link
Aarrgh: http://www.academia.edu/1435121/Triadic_Modal_and_Pentatonic_Patterns_in_Rock_Music
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 April 2017 10:25 (seven years ago) link
Ah, those are good. It is also touched on Moore, Allan. "The So-Called 'Flattened Seventh' in Rock". Popular Music. Vol. 14, No. 2 (May, 1995), pp. 185-201. Cambridge University Press.
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Monday, 24 April 2017 16:13 (seven years ago) link
Ha, I bought his book during the heyday of those discussions and he mentions that paper several times.
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 April 2017 16:32 (seven years ago) link
You seem to be over-thinking this guitar playing thing. Are you a keyboard player by any chance?Ha yes, how did you guess.
― Chris, Tuesday, 25 April 2017 10:52 (seven years ago) link
Which one of his books, Blecchs? Analysing Popular Music?
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Tuesday, 25 April 2017 13:05 (seven years ago) link
Think the proper title is Song Means, but yeah, that one.
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 26 April 2017 02:05 (seven years ago) link
Those are different books - the one Sund4r mentions is a collection with numerous authors.
― timellison, Wednesday, 26 April 2017 03:05 (seven years ago) link
Okay, start again. Not that one, but the other one whose subtitle is similar to that one's title.
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 26 April 2017 10:40 (seven years ago) link
Trying to learn "never going back again". The guy in the video tutorial says it's fairly advanced fingerpicking, well I have a few fingerpicking tunes under my belt and I'm not finding it a problem. Then he says the saving grace is that the left hand is pretty easy. Damn, is my left hand that bad? I can't even make the shapes cleanly,
― ledge, Saturday, 20 May 2017 09:25 (seven years ago) link
... let alone have any hope of switching between them quickly enough. Posting this not out of any vain hope for magic hints & tips, but if I do manage to crack it, as proof that persistence pays off.
― ledge, Saturday, 20 May 2017 09:26 (seven years ago) link
When I first started learning about bar chords, I thought for sure I would never be able to play something like 'Wave of Mutilation' but the more I tried it, the easier it got. It doesn't happen in the span of one or two practice sessions, but it'll come to you the more you familiarize yourself with the tune.
A smarter man than myself once said, "If you think you've gone too far, just keep going." And I find that's usually a good rule of thumb.
― Austin, Saturday, 20 May 2017 20:58 (seven years ago) link
"Never Going Back Again" is fairly challenging, I'd say. Definitely a few notches up from "Blackbird" or "Freight Train". I don't know why he'd say that the left hand part is easy; it's less intuitive than e.g. Zeppelin's acoustic songs. I recommend using a metronome really strictly and slowing it way the fuck down, maybe starting at less than half the original tempo.
― Tomorrow Begat Tomorrow (Sund4r), Saturday, 20 May 2017 23:06 (seven years ago) link
Sorry if that's the kind of hint you weren't looking for. It's just the only I was able to learn or teach it.
― Tomorrow Begat Tomorrow (Sund4r), Saturday, 20 May 2017 23:25 (seven years ago) link
yeah I do take it slow, although not with a metronome.my barres are ok for chugging out chords but show their limitations when it comes to fingerstyle. hardest thing in ngba though is one that stretches over four frets, even with a capo on 4 that's ahem a stretch.
― ledge, Sunday, 21 May 2017 13:41 (seven years ago) link
damn this flagging app keeps posting too early.
... & the one where I have to fret the top two strings with my little finger, which is apparently too puny and weak.
― ledge, Sunday, 21 May 2017 13:42 (seven years ago) link
Pretty difficult tune tbh.
― Punnet of the Grapes (Tom D.), Sunday, 21 May 2017 13:45 (seven years ago) link
Pretty difficult tune tbhAye but I think if I can't get it now I never will. (Where "now' is a period of weeks, probably months.) A smarter man than myself once said, "If you think you've gone too far, just keep going." And I find that's usually a good rule of thumbTrue, I would add "until you know you've gone too far", you can bite off more than you can chew.
― ledge, Sunday, 21 May 2017 17:02 (seven years ago) link
So did you stop screwing around and really learn to play the guitar?
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Sunday, 21 May 2017 17:04 (seven years ago) link
If the answer is yes, be sure to come over to Fingerstyle Guitar: Can You Do It?
― The Pickety 33⅓ Policeman (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 21 May 2017 17:20 (seven years ago) link
I quit screwing around and very slowly learnt to actually play the guitar to a standard where I'm happy to play by myself in front of the TV, still terrified to play in front of anyone else. Now I have a kid and very little time to actually learn to play the guitar.
― ledge, Sunday, 21 May 2017 17:38 (seven years ago) link
xp I will, shortly. or longly.
― ledge, Sunday, 21 May 2017 17:48 (seven years ago) link
maybe it's an unhelpful or self-deprecating distinction but I feel like I learnt to play songs on the guitar rather than actually learning to play the guitar? e.g. I don't do scales.
― ledge, Sunday, 21 May 2017 17:54 (seven years ago) link
Same here.
― Punnet of the Grapes (Tom D.), Sunday, 21 May 2017 17:56 (seven years ago) link
The 13th chord shape is tough, yeah, but I don't recall if this is ever actually necessary?:
Are you thinking of the chorus? Is it not possible to use the 3rd finger for the B string and the 4th finger for the high E string?
― Tomorrow Begat Tomorrow (Sund4r), Sunday, 21 May 2017 18:14 (seven years ago) link
I never paid a lot of attention to that tune, but there are two guitar tracks right?
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Sunday, 21 May 2017 18:21 (seven years ago) link
xp that's slower for me to make but yeah definitely cleaner once I have. might be easier for me to work on the speed than idk lifting tiny dumbells with my little finger.
― ledge, Sunday, 21 May 2017 18:23 (seven years ago) link