research into Ethereal Goth and Dreampop (and other stuff for fans of early 4AD and Projekt)

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I talked about this stuff a fair bit on one of the rolling goth threads and I made this thread a few years ago looking for this stuff...
Bands that Could/Should have been on PROJEKT records
...but I'd like a regular place to write about this stuff, and I think this stuff could have a much bigger audience than it does, or at least I hope so. Also, there hasnt been much discussion of it lately and I miss it.

The obvious roots of these genres are The Cure, Siouxsie And The Banshees, Cocteau Twins, This Mortal Coil, Clan Of Xymox, The Church, Chameleons, Cranes, His Name Is Alive, Slowdive, Chapterhouse, Red House Painters (first 3 albums) and Dead Can Dance. All these bands are big enough to have their own threads but bands like Trance To The Sun get ignored if I only discuss them in their own thread because they have so little recognition. There are a lot of goth bands I'd like to talk about more who probably fall a bit too far away from these styles and a lot of them have their own threads that are thankfully not empty. I was unsure just how gothy to keep it, because I'm tempted to include lots of shoegazing/dreampop stuff that could be discussed in other threads but I'm just going to include anything that seems like something these sort of fans would probably like. Neoclassical Darkwave is often lumped in here even though it is very different. I'm sure some people will find my groupings incoherent but I hope enough people think they make sense and if you want to contribute any bands to this just ask yourself if the average Projekt fan would like it and if the beauty element is a dominant one.

I've found this chart a lot of help for finding some of this stuff. Some of it super obscure.

I recently done a lot of research into japanese stuff and most of it wasnt interesting at all but I will post some links to the more promising stuff.

There is loads of stuff I've been meaning to listen to for years, so I hope I can update this fairly often with more bands.


Of all the smaller gothy ethereal bands, Lycia probably has more fans on this forum than any other. They have a really strong vision that stays with you and will make your next walk in the countryside seem all the more magical. It has a fetishistic obsession with atmospheric enviroments. When I think of 2007, I always think of the way my discovery of Lycia permeated that time.
The full 2 disc version (make sure you get that one and not the single disc) of Burning Circle And Then Dust is my favorite double album I've ever heard, I dont know of many other things you can so fully immerse yourself in for so long. 2 hours of moody contemplative bliss.
Cold, Ionia, Day In The Stark Corner, Bleak - Vane and the Estraya ep are the next best things in my view, some of the earlier stuff is a bit harsher and heavier in a really satisfying way.
I never really got into the Mike Van Portfleet solo album, it was far more ambient than I'm used to. The Tara Vanflower solo albums are really good, in the second one she made a really distinct sound with looping parts and vivid imagery. I listened to one David Galas album and I thought it taken just too much from 90s Michael Gira.

Steve Roach is a fan and I think he helped produce some of their stuff. Xasthur covered one of their songs.

They have a new album out that I'm eager to hear and here is a recent interview far more extensive than any other I've seen...


Often associated with Lycia, they knew each other but Trance To The Sun changed a lot more, had more detours into hard rocking and sometimes dancey elements while sacrificing none of their atmosphere and exotic dark fantasy. They have this glorious bass sound that I might call voluptuous, I'm pretty sure that is Ashkelon Sain, he does the majority of everything you hear in the band. They had a succession of three different female vocalists and once had Gordon Sharp from Cindytalk (I dont know if they recorded anything with him) and Sain sang some songs too.
I like the lyrics a lot, they paint strange little scenes, the first song on Delirious has this story about trying to make rain come and there is something really wonderful and strange about it.
It's really impossible to choose a favorite album, Ashkelon Sain is one of my music heroes. His Myspace used to have quite a few tracks of his solo guitar recordings but I think Myspace is gutted now, there is only one on Soundcloud. After Trance he was in a more democratic sounding band called Submarine Fleet which was good but I much prefer him as a dominant force; I saw in interviews that he done solo improvised guitar shows under the Submarine Fleet name. He has been with a band called Soriah recently, I heard lots of good things about that but not heard the albums yet.

Robert Rich was involved with some Trance To The Sun albums. One of their vocalists has her own project called Scarlet Slipping that I'd really like to hear.
It might be a wild guess but I'd like to ask Ashkelon Sain if he was influenced at all by the poet and short story writer Clark Ashton Smith, because he creates these similar, dark yet colorful and lush exotic worlds.
If I hadnt made it clear already, Trance To The Sun are one of my favorite bands ever. They recently funded a new album on Kickstarter, their previous studio album was more than 10 years ago.


This band is very different from any other listed here, they make songs which are more straight forward in structure and lentgh and they have this sort of intellectual, highly cultured lyrical aspect; I think they could have and should have been much bigger, the singer died sadly. Their first 3 albums are total gold to me. They are my favorite band that I discovered on this forum (in the thread I linked to).
They started off with a heavy Cocteau Twins influence, the compilation sadly is a mixture between a best of and a rarities collection, I wish it had collected all the non album tracks because those early Cocteau/neoclassical mixtures are incredible and the original various artists compilation sources are very hard to find. There is also a track by side project Trees Dance on that RaFoaD compilation, a really amazing one too but I cant find the album it came from. There is another side project called Cube Like People which was far more electronic (the last two RaFoaD albums were more electronic if I recall correcly) but I dont think it was all that great.
Yes, the first 3 albums are gorgeous and I cant recommend them highly enough.


I have 3 of their albums, kind of runners up to my top bands above. Fortune His Sleep is my favorite so far and very very dreamy, it has a cover of The Cure's "All Cats Are Grey" which is fine but I think that song is a bit too special to cover; but their cover of Renaissance's "Ashes Are Burning" is as good as the original.
The more folky Beneath These Trees is often seen as their best album.


Only heard their debut, I like it a lot. Has a much stronger goth element than most of these bands.


The singer from Faith And The Muse, Monica Richards was in this band, far more dreampoppy. Heard only the debut album, a few very good tracks but mostly by the numbers filler.
I read that they were originally called Madhouse but Prince bought the name from them because he wanted a band called that so badly. Strange Boutique is a way better name than Madhouse.


I managed to find Things That Were, a pretty good dreamy goth album with some clearly Lycia inspired moments, also a bit of a metal. The band had a really unstable lineup and the main guy (who was in several metal bands) sadly killed himself not so long ago.


A few very strong tracks from the first album had a slightly Lycia/Trance To The Sun thing going on (no idea if they actually listen to those bands) and I bought the second album a few days ago, I'm optimistic about them.


I've got all 4 of their albums. First is pretty rough and uninteresting in places but has enough tracks of really nice rainy gloom; second feels like a compilation, some really good songs but it lacks something; third is their classic Walk Softly, A Dream Lies Here; fourth/last has two really brilliant songs better than anything they done before, which makes this essential to me on the strength of them.


I like Suspiria a lot but cant remember much about it, havent heard any Medieval Baebes albums yet.


Requiem In White came first and it had this slightly doomy desolate thing that Mors didnt have even though it was still pretty music. Mors Syphilitica's Feather and Fate is one of my favorite gothic dreampop albums. Still havent got Primrose, which some say is more eclectic and better.
I'd like to know what Lisa Hammer's later bands were like.


I've got 5 of their early albums and they are all very similar and that is not a bad thing in their case. I'd say they resemble This Mortal Coil quite a lot. Some people find wont get on with their serious preoccupation with depression and romance; the vocalists are not everyone's cup of tea either but I like them a lot.


From hearing Birds Of Passage they sound like a more tropical Dead Can Dance to me. Does that sound accurate?


Somewhere between The Cure and Chameleons.


Found them on the RYM chart above. Not sure they fit there entirely. Their only album is Smoke From Vanished Kisses; I wonder if they wanted to do more? Soul(?) influenced vocals and harp music. Quite original, nothing like most of this music.


I bought one of their albums mostly because Sam Rosenthal said it was the most underrated album on his label. It is really good, it isnt avant garde or anything but I'm not sure how to describe it.


From Argentina. Their debut had a stunning opening track and a very good closing track but was mostly poor man's Cocteau Twins inbetween. I just checked and saw that they have a new album out this year, their first since 1995!


They had a thread on this forum recently. Wonderful vocalist. Watery tender nostalgic soundscapes. Very good stuff.
Guitarist went onto his own thing in Lanterna.


Got one album a year ago and they had a new album recently after a very long absence. I adored the vocalist when he was in This Mortal Coil. He sings very down to earth and personal more than a lot of these other bands.


A side project of The Church and the vocalist of Game Theory (who I know nothing about). I heard the song "Diviner" in the film Tarnation and was blown away. That and another song on the debut are perfect dreampop but the second album as a whole is superior.


I was a big fan of Heggie's bass on Cocteau Twins but Lowlife are totally different. I saw that there was a documentary being made but I dont know if it ever taken off. Great band.


I was attracted to this band because their early ep reminded me a bit of Just For A Day era Slowdive and I like anything that reminds me of that, but in retrospect I'm not so sure how similar it is. They changed quite a lot later. They have some really good songs.


(I taken this description from another thread I posted on and slightly changed it)
Con Dolore - This Sad Movie. This is something I think I've only heard 4 times but it totally blown me away. It really lives up to the title and cover art, it's a dreampoppy/shoegazey story of a romance that I found very powerful, it has some incredibly sweet and beautiful sad songs. I was totally gutted when I found out they had split up (but the second album wasnt nearly as good, maybe they were running out of steam).
Years later I finally tracked down cds of the earlier Moss/Ballinger project Polar. The difficulty was there are several bands called Polar and their discography somehow always gets listed and mixed up with a slowcore band of the same name. Their two albums are A Future History Of The Frigid Polar Night and Lies Set By The Polar Mob. I've seen listing of an album called Begins The Frigid Night but cant confirm it really exists.
They were both well worth the tracking down and have lots of mesmerizing moments. Several sites have them on mp3, the second album harder to find. I think Con Dolore/Polar deserve to be very high among the dreampop/shoegaze canon.
Kirsty Moss was in a band called Les Enfants but I'm not sure they managed to get anything out. Yet another band name that is difficult to search and there being several other bands called that!


Ideal shoeagazing to submerge yourself into the haze.


I payed 90 pounds for Eyedazzler and didnt regret it. One of the best shoegazing albums, incredibly sweet vocals. I'm hoping the followup band Locheed finally comes out someday.


Mixed feelings from the debut. I liked it but it lacks something, I'll probably get more.


I think the first two albums are some of the best hazeysoftdeepwaves shoegazing I've ever heard.


"The Blood Of My Lady" is an amazing song. I've only got that album.


I seen some immensely enthusiastic recommendations for Sleeps With Fishes and it was totally amazing and beautiful. I have to echo all recommendations I've heard.


I think she fits in fairly well into this world. I heard her 3 albums recently and she is one of the few current popular artists I like.


I liked a few songs from their debut album. Do the later albums improve?


A bit like Chapterhouse.


Very pretty and sometimes it sounded ideal but from hearing the first two albums only, I felt they lacked something. "Write In Water" was great.


I often felt he taken far too much from Red House Painters, that his voice is better when buried in echo and that sometimes his need to get his heartache story out exceeded the quality of songwriting; but just enough of the time the music was very powerful. I think of him as the quintessential sad 90s musician even if he isnt the best. But some of his songs really are devastating. "I Will Never Let Go" is lovely and bitterly horrible at the same time.


I like this band a lot but I wouldnt have listed them here until the most recent album. They remind me of Wolfgang Press a bit.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 17 October 2013 21:20 (seven years ago) link

Joy Division not an influence?

OutdoorFish, Thursday, 17 October 2013 21:44 (seven years ago) link

Yes, definitely but I often tend to forget them because they were immensely influential to so many indie bands. It is strange that they are often listed as the first goth band, because I dont think of them as gothy individuals.
Durutti Column would be a big influence on a lot of these bands.

I forgot Julee Cruise, I think she sits well here.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 17 October 2013 21:54 (seven years ago) link

no, that's how i see it too. they were not visually gothy, but you can hear them in a lot of goth bands, especially the vocals.

OutdoorFish, Thursday, 17 October 2013 21:56 (seven years ago) link

is this where I mention that both Pieter Nooten and Anka Wolbert have overlooked solo albums?

katherine, Friday, 18 October 2013 04:49 (seven years ago) link

Good grief, Robert, did you rob my record collection or something? Also that's a pretty huge sprawl of bands and decades there! Offhand one missing entry is In the Nursery. I'd fallen out of touch with And Also the Trees in recent years so was pleased to see they're still keeping on.

Ned Raggett, Friday, 18 October 2013 12:10 (seven years ago) link

yeah this reads like a list of all the bands I was haphazardly checking out in the 90's once I'd exhausted all the usual suspects. Retrospectively I think the only one I really liked was Miranda Sex Garden - they never quite delivered on record but live they were quite something.

licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Friday, 18 October 2013 12:22 (seven years ago) link

Oh bugger, I forgot In The Nursery, I made a thread about them a few months ago.

Katherine says "is this where I mention that both Pieter Nooten and Anka Wolbert have overlooked solo albums?"

I'd never heard of them, do go on please.

I recently found out that one of the female singers from the second This Mortal Coil album has her own band and I think I might have forgotten to take note of the band name.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 18 October 2013 14:21 (seven years ago) link

2/3 of the Clan of Xymox ended up on the same smallish label a few years ago. This is pretty representative of Anka's album:

Pieter Nooten's album, off the same label:

And correction, Pieter Nooten apparently has MULTIPLE solo albums (different label though) including 2012 and 2013(!) releases.

And apparently Anka and Toni Halliday(!!) were working on a project together and at some point mp3s of either the tracks proper or demos were posted online, but they're more or less lost forever. (believe me, I've checked.)

katherine, Friday, 18 October 2013 15:24 (seven years ago) link

I was always under the impression that Nooten's last thing was Sleeps With Fishes.

Ned, you were a bit of a catalyst in me getting into some of these bands. I'm sure you've got four or five times more of this stuff than I do. This music is just small enough a niche that I could probably eventually get most of the stuff I want but I've been a very bad music fan for the past few years and I should have more of this stuff. Big gaps in my Dead Can Dance and Banshees collection, and I only have a one or two albums by most of the bands.
I was hoping more would spring to your mind because I'd like to think I've more great bands to discover. Among the wants I want to hear are Angels Of Venice, Eden, Pale Cocoon, Jack Or Jive, Autumn's Grey Solace, Hungry Lucy, Claire Voyant, Speaking Silence, Chandeen, Dark Orange, Basque, Frolic, Love Is Colder Than Death, Weep, The Shroud, Mirabilis, Arcana, Melodyguild, Loreena McKennitt, Collection D'Arnell Andrea and Sleep ∞ Over.
Do any of these bands compare favorably?

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 18 October 2013 16:28 (seven years ago) link

I love Sleep ∞ Over!

gotta lol geir (NickB), Friday, 18 October 2013 16:35 (seven years ago) link

Laura Sheeran is another newer act that is very much down this particular alley:

katherine, Friday, 18 October 2013 16:35 (seven years ago) link

Only just catching up with the last Esben & the Witch album. First one left me cold, but this next one is pretty good. Kind of annoyed with myself for having missed it tbh, they're a local band too.

gotta lol geir (NickB), Friday, 18 October 2013 16:38 (seven years ago) link

also gonna leave this tag here:

katherine, Friday, 18 October 2013 16:41 (seven years ago) link

Also: Stare, Dark Sanctuary, Aenima, Human Drama, Arcanta, Autumn, Deleyaman, Siddal, Ostia.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 18 October 2013 16:50 (seven years ago) link

xpost -- Ha! I was just noting Arcanta below, actually. So to edit/add on the post as I typed it.

There's a fell swoop of bands up there a few posts back. Of the ones I've heard:

Eden -- VERY DCD. To the point some called them the Australian tribute band to DCD. But enjoyable.

Autumn's Grey Solace -- another post-Cocteaus duo but a nice clutch of albums. Mood music.

Chandeen -- I know I have AN album of theirs around...maybe I reviewed it for the AMG?

Basque -- have the one album, I think; interesting but I'll need to revisit it.

Love Is Colder Than Death -- have an album, no immediate impression.

Weep -- think I've reviewed their most recent. One of the guys who does voices for Venture Bros or something?

Mirabilis -- VAGUE memory of hearing something.

Arcana -- always got them and Arcanta confused early on. Both good but I am more of an Arcanta fan; friendly fellow -- sent me his final album under the name a couple of years back.

Melodyguild -- Suzanne from LSD's band after that, though they only had the one EP I think?

Loreena McKennitt -- more in her own universe, I thought? Somewhere between Jane Siberry, Enya and DCD. HUGE among a lot of people I remember being Mercedes Lackey fans.

Siddal -- DC Cocteausy stuff, nice enough.

Human Drama -- their own thing! Goth trappings, downbeat rock and roll inspirations, early hyperdrama turned into elegant performances, some great unexpected covers, continuing into the follow-on band (can't remember the name right now) and Johnny Indovina's solo career. Great guy, actually. Robert Smith asked him to open up for the Cure in Mexico City earlier this year! Always found it interesting what sticks with Mr. Smith over the years.

Have we mentioned the Hypnos label yet? Or AE Records, who released Lucid? Both curious/cryptic labels that always seemed to skate under the radar; odd in Hypnos's case because they released a slew of things. As for acts, there's always Unto Ashes as well -- prolific as well, great covers/reworkings. Of course if we go that route then full on into acid folk via Tim Renner and Stone Breath...

Ned Raggett, Friday, 18 October 2013 16:58 (seven years ago) link

i always want to love a lot of this stuff but i never end up loving it like i love the original artists that stuff like this is built on. most of the time the reason for this is lack of great songs. or they've got the spirit but lose the feeling. lycia are pretty great though. and also the trees don't really remind me of any of this music though i'm sure if anyone listens to them it would be goths. this is more for goth diehards, i guess. people who stay current with industrial or EBM. people like ned. i find that everything i love about early 80's/4AD/first wave goth/ambient is more than ably covered by metal sub-genres. goth ambient shoegazer metal is everywhere and it just feels stronger to me then anything i've heard by someone like moon seven times or other like-minded groups. i've tried too. listened. bought CDs. in theory i am all for sad boy and girl ambient/gaze. would love to hear something GREAT. whereas my reaction is usually to quote ned above: "nice enough".

i LOVE the cindytalk stuff that has come out in recent years. that to me is evolution and truly great ambient art.

scott seward, Friday, 18 October 2013 17:32 (seven years ago) link

and this is the part where i tell people to listen to Troller:

scott seward, Friday, 18 October 2013 17:41 (seven years ago) link

this thread might have some pointers:

Women in drone and psych

Oh yeah, don't forget the whole Ventricle Records axis - Mauve Sideshow, Mistress Of Strands, Torn Curtain, Angel Provocateur, etc...
― sleeve (sleeve), Wednesday, March 8, 2006 10:40 PM

money, chicken and other DNA (sleeve), Friday, 18 October 2013 18:43 (seven years ago) link

It is true that a lot of these bands are somewhere between Cocteau Twins and Dead Can Dance with not much to call their own and it is dispiriting to know that my journeys will mostly be into derivative stuff way more than original good stuff. But not many other people are going to do the work and I am very interested in finding good stuff.
I love shoegazing but there is legions of mediocre stuff and I just don't have it in me (or the time!) to dig heavily as others might. It is also a bit depressing that some genre that was exciting at the start tends to get boring at the further reaches.

Also, I think a lot of bands sound derivative first time you hear them but years later you wonder why you thought that. I think a lot of genres sound samey when you first start exploring. I like Black Metal but even a lot of the b-list bands sound too samey to me.
If any metal bands seem to fit well enough in here, go for it. Scott, do you mean Alcest and stuff like that. I've heard Angelic Process are quite metally.

I really do think Lycia, Trance To The Sun, Rise And Fall Of A Decade, In The Nursery are great bands, visionaries and just as good and better than some of the originators. I also think Con Dolore/Polar, Alison's Halo, Lovesliescrushing and Sianspheric are close to the very top shoegazing, personally I'd put these guys ahead of Lush, Ride and Pale Saints (who I also love).

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 18 October 2013 19:11 (seven years ago) link

Any other Rise And Fall Of A Decade fans? I urge you!

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 18 October 2013 19:14 (seven years ago) link

Maybe more ideas here [] and here [].

glenn mcdonald, Friday, 18 October 2013 19:19 (seven years ago) link

Does Virginia Astley belong here?

Love Breathless, have all their albums.

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Friday, 18 October 2013 19:25 (seven years ago) link

i LOVE the cindytalk stuff that has come out in recent years. that to me is evolution and truly great ambient art.

Very, very true. A powerful act still, finding new ways.

Ned Raggett, Friday, 18 October 2013 19:34 (seven years ago) link

That Every Noise At Once site is pretty cool, but listening to samples has made me less optimistic about finding good stuff. Rosewater Elizabeth sounds pretty good, but they are another that has been on my shopping list a while.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 18 October 2013 21:07 (seven years ago) link

I saw a couple of Vyllies music videos roughly two years ago and was highly impressed, but their music was bafflingly hard to find for a band who weren't totally obscure. Turns out their complete recordings got put out on 2cd collection very recently. Hooray, I bought it.

A trio of women, not totally derivative, for a few years in the 80s.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 21 October 2013 23:35 (seven years ago) link

the pieter nooten albums beyond sleeps with the fishes are quite good! he's got about half a dozen total, I think?

erry red flag (f. hazel), Monday, 21 October 2013 23:44 (seven years ago) link

Thank you thread for namechecking the Vyllies and Cindytalk... LOVING these later Cindytalk albums right now.

Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 11:33 (seven years ago) link

"i always want to love a lot of this stuff but i never end up loving it like i love the original artists that stuff like this is built on."

I have exactly the same problem, especially with "shoegaze"

OutdoorFish, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 12:28 (seven years ago) link

I'm beating a dead horse here a bit but while I think it is generally true that the original stuff is better (as is the case for most genres of anything), I think some of the newer bands I mentioned can be equally as powerful. I hope I didn't give the impression that I fully endorse all those bands I listed above, but I did think all of them were interesting enough to mention if only for a handful of songs.

Some fans say "I love this style so much that I even enjoy the mediocre bands" and some say "I love this style so much that I cant stand to hear it done less than brilliant"; I'm somewhere between those two spots.
I recall when I was just getting into shoegazing and several other genres, the idea of hearing increasingly less potent versions of something I loved was pretty scary. I always like to think back to when I started each genre and think of how sky high my expectations were for the other bands. I thought maybe I should just have stopped buying more and just dreamed of what I would liked to have heard. But even though you get lots of disappointment from exploring, you also get surprises which enrich your life.
Another aspect is that I can come into a genre with expectations I so badly want to see fulfilled, but I have to respect that most bands probably had totally different ambitions and although I love genre labels, you really have to judge a band as an individual thing apart from what you want from a genre.

I think Sianspheric and Lovesliescrushing gave me something I wanted that some of the earlier bands didn't do for me (again, they have no obligation to guess what people might want). I love their expansive lush haziness... actually it's difficult to describe these bands in a way really differentiates between other bands. Because you can write a million reviews for shoegazing, ambient and extreme metal bands and easily make them all sound the same. But when I hear those first 2 Sianspheric albums, it is crystal clear why this works for me and why I think it is way better than most other bands attempts at a similar thing.
Loads of reviews of these bands get compared to all the usual suspects and while I don't want to hear that "this band sounds like Cocteau Twins and Dead Can Dance, but obviously not as good", I do have a craving for bands with similar goals because all these bands make you see areas you'd like to be explored a bit more.

In some ways I feel I'm kind of selling some of these bands short by lumping them in together. I think HTRK, Aether and The Vyllies do something substantially different from a lot of these bands (not to sell the other bands short that are closer to the originals) but I put them here because I feel they have enough in common and I'd like an excuse to talk about them.

I feel like a bit of a goth traitor/blasphemer here because while I do consider myself a fan of Siouxsie And The Banshees and adore individual songs, I've always been lukewarm about their albums as wholes. Having said that, I have only 5 of their albums: Scream, Juju, Kiss In The Dreamhouse, Hyaena, Peepshow. Peepshow is my favourite.
Some might call them the key band, Robert Smith has often gave me the impression that they sort of wakened him up and made him see possibilities and most of the other bands were fans of them.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 22 October 2013 19:54 (seven years ago) link

you need Kaleidoscope!

money, chicken and other DNA (sleeve), Tuesday, 22 October 2013 20:07 (seven years ago) link

i love the albums. i love the singles. lots of love. this is the stuff i really got excited by this year:

do you guys like GRAVE BABIES? the nu-jesus&marychain goth underground champs

scott seward, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 02:25 (seven years ago) link

Siouxie has never really grabbed, although you can see the influence on Garlands, which I love. I can only dream of how good that album would have sounded with a mature Raymonde, rather than Will Heggie, who seems to be doing a permanent one man Primary impersonation.

OutdoorFish, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 03:07 (seven years ago) link

make that 'grabbed me'

OutdoorFish, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 03:08 (seven years ago) link

I'll need to get some Grave Babies samples.

When we had that massive Cocteau Twins poll recently I was surprised at the range of contrasting opinions. I adore Will Heggie's contribution so much that I wish he did another 2 albums with them. What he did with Lowlife is very different. Did that Lowlife documentary ever get off the ground?
I've not good at spotting instruments so I've never been able to spot what Raymonde did because he is very subtle and his work blends in way more, so I cant always hear him distinctly; I just assume he is great because he is on so many good records.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 16:40 (seven years ago) link

As an example of an original influence on this style I think Echo And The Bunnymen's Ocean Rain is extremely underwhelming. I think it has 2 or 3 great songs but the rest is pretty forgettable.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 16:47 (seven years ago) link

Heaven Up Here would be a better reference point. I like hearing it a lot these days. Sounds great.

scott seward, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 17:20 (seven years ago) link

Yeah that one is my favorite of the original four in the end.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 23 October 2013 17:24 (seven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Just my reviews for RateYourMusic and Amazon, repeats some of the info I gushed at the top of the thread...


Ashkelon Sain was previously in This Ascension and Blade Fetish for a brief time but Trance To The Sun has him as the dominant force but not quite solo since the female singers were a defining aspect of their sound.

This first album is different enough to set them apart from other ethereal goth bands but before they became truly distinct. It is dark, meanders mysteriously and evocatively with almost ghostly vocals but doesn’t have the exotic colour and “oomph” of the later albums.
I wish I could hear the words better because I catch interesting things here and there; maybe the remastered version is clearer. I love the song title “Lend Me Your Most Vile”.

“August Rain” had previously appeared as a This Ascension song and Trance To The Sun would return to it later again.


The characteristic sounds of the band come in here a bit more and better quality tracks in general. Probably succeeds more as an atmospheric journey too.
“Gira Sola” is dedicated to someone in the sleeve notes, it sounds like it was for someone who passed away and it is one of the most beautiful things in any of their albums, easily the best thing on this album.


I think this is when they started being a properly brilliant band. There aren’t many bands where I struggle to choose an essential “if you only get one, get this” record, or picking an ideal introduction album. A lot of my favourite bands maybe have two contenders at most, with exceptions like Swans, REM or Beach Boys there might be as many as 5 I could choose. I feel that way about this band. Venomous Eve, Delirious, Azalean Sea, Urchin Tear Soda and Atrocious Virgin all seem like contenders for a best album of theirs.

The previous two had this feeling of wandering around in dark vague landscapes with hypnotic distant echoes drawing you around. This one really nails their early sound but adds lots of odd touches. A lot more is done with the vocals, quite soft but also banshee like (I don’t mean Siouxsie), and Sain’s fantastic voluptuous bass sound really comes into its own.

The sounds make me think of large tall subterranean dark caverns, while slightly less vague than previous and with more detailed visions, is still filled with suggestive, ominous mystery. The ending that gets louder and really strange is a brilliant finisher.
There might be quite a number of ethereal atmospheric goth albums but I don’t think there is much else quite like this. I don’t think this is territory already explored by earlier similar bands; this underworld is a different place they are luring you to (although I imagine other people imagine totally different places not underground).

Vocalist Zoe Alexandra Wakefield left after this album (there were still tracks of her that appeared on later compilations) and from most interviews I’ve seen with the band members, it seems nobody knows where she went.


This is probably the their album that excites me most when I think about it in retrospect and the one I have the most urge to replay; that might be because it was the first album I got by the band but I’m not sure.
I’ve seen it listed as an EP but I’m sure it is a full length album and I wouldn’t like people to think it was any less important than the rest. It is very different from anything else they did, a lot brighter and more colourful than the previous albums. I might be influenced by the cover art but I tend to think of oceans of glaring purple/pink lava in several songs.
Dawn Wagner is the vocalist on this one, this is the only album she was on; apparently she left because it was felt she cared about her own solo stuff much more than being in this band. I think she is really fantastic on this, so I’m eager to hear her Scarlet Slipping albums.

When I first got this, I never liked the idea of dancey goth music but I learned from this that it could be energetic and fun but still keep the atmosphere and otherworldly qualities in full force.
It taken me a while to really appreciate the first track because it feels like a slow intro before the album really kicks in, but I love the little story it tells, about this intimate obsessive couple talking about the past “do you remember when we tried to make it rain?”.
There is a really brilliant sequence of really exciting tracks, perhaps 3 or more in a row; working to an extent that I don’t hear often, it keeps a great momentum.

I really really love this album.


This is a compilation of salvaged highlights from as many as four aborted albums. It is structured kind of oddly that it starts from most recent material and ending with their older songs. I’d say it was just as important as any of their albums.

Ingrid Blue became the vocalist here and I think she really established herself really well after a few vocalists came and went (including Gordon Sharp from Cindytalk but as far as I know, he didn’t record any songs with them). The songs are mostly rockier than usual, several have this really hard, satisfying, confident strutting quality.

Dara Rosenwasser (Faith and Disease) sings on a track which is strange and has this low almost brooding quality about the sounds but “brooding” really isn’t the emotional quality of the song overall; at first it seemed slapdash to me but there is something pleasingly weird about it.
Ashkelon Sain sings some of the songs himself and although he isn’t as good as the other singers, there are one or two where he manages some interesting things.


Much bigger album than the previous albums, more variety and more ambitious. I’m usually not one to care about lyrics that much for most bands, but the combination of sounds and lyrics creates vivid little scenes which I find really fascinating.
I think of Clark Ashton Smith’s exotic colourful lost planets but featuring strange gothy punks with mental issues inhabiting those worlds. The cover art is much better than the other albums and it gives you a fairly good clue to how it sounds.

The version of Pink Floyd’s “Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun” is really great. The end tracks have some very lengthy very psychedelic journeys with lots of different phases. I think this one takes you more different places than the other albums.


I don’t know if when they recorded this if it was meant as a final album, but it sounds that way to me. Some of the tracks have what I interpret as big celebratory feel; even something like “Homewrecker” with fairly miserable lyrics sounds like it has a sense of wonder about it. A lot of it feels like air travel across weird skies. The word “cunt” makes several appearances.

There is a spoken word piece by someone not from the band, it can be difficult to hear a lot of it but I think it is in the sleeve cards, which have quite a number of interesting paintings by Ingrid Blue; but for some reason this and the previous album are much harder to find on cd than the earlier ones, so I don’t know if people will get the images and lyrics with the mp3 version.

After this Ashkelon Sain formed Submarine Fleet and later collaborated with Soriah; I’m fairly sure Ingrid Blue was in an eccentric punky classical band called Bela Lugosi.
Trance To The Sun got together for some later gigs and I think they are working on a new album now.


Ashkelon Sain got back with Mark (Marc?) Linder, quite some time after Blade Fetish (though he was in some Trance To The Sun stuff). This sounds far more collaborative for Sain than his previous band; which might be why I’m not quite as into it as Trance To The Sun; but it is good stuff all the same.


Quite a bit more adventurous than the previous EP. Some really lovely colourful ethereal tracks on this and I do recommend it but I’m glad Sain went onto different things after this. I think he used the name Submarine Fleet for solo improvised shows. I haven’t heard his Soriah collaborations yet but I’m very much looking forward to that.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 6 November 2013 20:13 (seven years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Finished listening to the second Esben And The Witch album. It is much better than the first, but I think "When That Head Splits" is disproportionately better than everything else, a really amazing track.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 28 November 2013 19:06 (seven years ago) link

two weeks pass...

Finished listening to the second Esben And The Witch album. It is much better than the first

Yes, definitely! Took me ages to get round to listening to it cos the first one was so boring but I have become unreasonably obsessed with the second since I heard it. Very post-4AD, kinda reminds me of early Lush, Piano Magic circa Low Birth Weight, even maybe early period Disco Inferno. Love 'When That Head Splits', but I love the opening song too and this one is also lovely:

grumbling führer (NickB), Thursday, 12 December 2013 19:32 (seven years ago) link

I've been meaning to check out Disco Inferno forever.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 12 December 2013 20:02 (seven years ago) link

the stuff compiled on In Debt is the most relevant to this thread, but it's the sampled-based music that came afterwards that they're acclaimed for

grumbling führer (NickB), Thursday, 12 December 2013 20:07 (seven years ago) link

Also been listening to that complete Vyllies collection. Starts off very punky and then more elegant synth later on, several horror themed tracks, pleasantly sinister. Some of it more poppy.

Also the Rosewater Elizabeth album Le Petit Mort. The first dreampop album I've ever seen that warns you about the frequencies possibly damaging your sound system. Unusually for an obscure ethereal goth band, the production sounds really expensive and it has a nice depth to it.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 12 December 2013 20:23 (seven years ago) link

not be all plug-y but some of you may like this band i play bass in

tylerw, Thursday, 12 December 2013 20:29 (seven years ago) link

pretty! dunno if it's just the power of suggestion just cos yr in the band tyler, but the chorus sounds a bit neil youngish, like only love can break your heart or something, that kind of lilting voice hanging over things

grumbling führer (NickB), Thursday, 12 December 2013 21:02 (seven years ago) link

ha, well, i didn't have anything to do with the writing, but I'll take it as a compliment!

tylerw, Thursday, 12 December 2013 21:07 (seven years ago) link

I've been meaning to check out Disco Inferno forever.

Rightly so.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 12 December 2013 21:09 (seven years ago) link

but of course! it's an interesting blend of styles xp

grumbling führer (NickB), Thursday, 12 December 2013 21:11 (seven years ago) link

I've been thinking of starting a thread listing all the bands I've wanted to hear for years (some as long ago as a decade) but I'm not sure if there is a point other than getting to shout at each other "drop everything and listen to them now!"

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 12 December 2013 23:44 (seven years ago) link

I wish I had more knowledge of mixing and production because I'm not quite sure what the issues are with the two Speaking Silence albums I've listened to recently.

Their debut Speak In Silence is really good but maybe some things don't stand out as much as they should? Rise And Fall Of A Decade had a substantial part in the album and it's easy to hear (I think Trees Dance was a full collaboration between Speaking Silence and RaFoaD, it's one of my holy grails).
RaFoaD have done a couple of excellent Cocteau Twins pastiches and Speaking Silence have "The Call From Inside" which is about as good.
I wish there was a youtube video of "The Lost Tale" because it's them doing their own thing and probably the best track.

I'd be surprised if the third and last album The Twilight World sounds the way it was supposed to. I found it far too dense for their style but the songs are still quite good, particularly the first two.

I just paid a bit too much for their second album, so I hope it's good and closer to the earlier more rococo style. They later joined the band Am'ganesha'n.

I recall looking up the people Rise And Fall Of A Decade mentioned in one of their songs years ago and finding a lot of them were Nazi sympathizers but on checking again I don't know why I though this was so. Back then I didn't know who most of these people were but now only half are unfamiliar: Boris Vian, Jacques Brel, Simone De Beauvior, Raymond Queneau, Robert Doisneau, Jean Paul Sartre, Bernard Blier, Michel Audiard, Antione Blondin, Juliette Greco, Serge Gainsbourg, Serge Reggiani.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 9 February 2018 22:56 (three years ago) link

two weeks pass...

huge fan of Irish artist Catscars and this EP is incredible:

algorithm is a dancer (katherine), Wednesday, 28 February 2018 23:58 (three years ago) link

two months pass...

Years ago when I was delving into goth lists for stuff I would never find in regular music shops (really the start of my finding the sort of music this thread is about), Arcana's Dark Age Of Reason kept getting mentions, so I've wanted it for a long time. It's neoclassical and I'm sure lots of metalheads will appreciate it, sleeve art is gorgeous. But I think that the acclaim is probably mostly based on the first few tracks, but seriously, check out "Source Of Light", it's really wonderful.
Only a small sample of the album, "Angel Of Sorrow" is lovely too if you find the whole album.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 4 May 2018 20:55 (three years ago) link

Cantar de Procella is pretty great, album after Dark Age of Reason... I actually just bought Petrichor the other day, a collection of b-sides and other ephemerata.

erry red flag (f. hazel), Friday, 4 May 2018 21:21 (three years ago) link

I might have to resort to MP3 for Cantar de Procella. Very expensive second hand.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 4 May 2018 22:05 (three years ago) link

expensive on vinyl, you mean?

erry red flag (f. hazel), Friday, 4 May 2018 22:28 (three years ago) link

Just the CD copies

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 4 May 2018 23:28 (three years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Bel Canto - Shimmering, Warm & Bright

There's a bunch of good songs, the slightly aquatic german track is lovely and "Mornixuur" is gorgeous but overall it's just okay and probably suffers from the departure of Geir.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 25 May 2018 17:51 (three years ago) link

It was a couple of years ago but the few webcam performances on Lycia's official youtube channel are worth seeing.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, 26 May 2018 18:35 (three years ago) link

I totally missed this Mike VanPortfleet interview from 2013 somehow.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, 2 June 2018 14:19 (three years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Orange - Complete Recordings is the length of a regular album and it's a typical case of occasionally pleasant but poorly written and extremely derivative, formulaic dreampop.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 29 June 2018 18:17 (three years ago) link

it's a better album that at least two by the cocteau twins though

com rad erry red flag (f. hazel), Friday, 29 June 2018 23:22 (three years ago) link


com rad erry red flag (f. hazel), Friday, 29 June 2018 23:23 (three years ago) link


I owned the original LP release in 1994 (hi Brent et al from Dewdrops Records and the 4AD-email list), and if I recall, I'd rank it as 6.5 best amongst a 9 album CT discography. Ie: Head Over Heals > Blue Bell Knoll > Treasure > Heaven or Las Vegas > Victorialand > Garlands Orange > The Moon and the Melodies > Milk & Kisses > Four-Calendar Cafe.

Orange (13) (as discogs number them) was the only 90s dreampop which really appreciated how important Ella Fitzgerald and vocal improv was to CT's formula. Most everything else at the time was morose hymns by former choir girls.

It's not all as good as the following, but this is an ideal that the Projekt folks never aspired to.

That said, Orange wasn't the best thing on Dewdrops. For that, I'd recommend Glisten by Elysium (4), which remains one of the best late autumnal records I've heard.

Roomba with an attitude (Sanpaku), Saturday, 30 June 2018 01:18 (three years ago) link

Lots of good dreampop in the mid-90s:

com rad erry red flag (f. hazel), Saturday, 30 June 2018 01:50 (three years ago) link

I like April March too, but at the time considered them on the shoegaze side of the fence.

But there, hear how all the vocal lines are these long things without syncopation that line up with measures? That's part of what I grew to dislike about dreampop/etherial/etc through the 90s. Even in an obscure genre indie musics there was a conscious rejection of rhythmic play, as if to syllabylize on upbeats might mean one's giving in to the urban music juggernaut. Liz Frazer may have sounded like a wounded dolphin live, but at least on the releases she sounded like she was playing against the beats. Like Ella.

Roomba with an attitude (Sanpaku), Saturday, 30 June 2018 02:31 (three years ago) link

that's an interesting observation!

com rad erry red flag (f. hazel), Saturday, 30 June 2018 02:40 (three years ago) link

don't sleep on rose chronicles, kirsty thirsk's former band

music saved my life (Ross), Saturday, 30 June 2018 02:43 (three years ago) link

I think the singer for Orange has a great sounding voice but doesn't sing very well, like even the "writing" of the vocal parts just isn't very good. Almost seems like she didn't care to learn all the lyrics for the Pixies cover.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Sunday, 1 July 2018 09:28 (three years ago) link

Just revisiting the two Salt Garden EP's by Fovea Hex, they haven't been mentioned on this thread. Somehow they're classified as ambient or avant-folk, but to my ears it's much closer to DCD/'ethereal goth' than anything else.

Siegbran, Friday, 13 July 2018 10:45 (three years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Area - Between Purple And Pink

Fantastic, I rank it above Radio Caroline but just below The Perfect Dream. "Brave Parade", "Rail", "Our Corner Drowning" and "Dry Spell" are all particularly fine.

"The only thing crueler than an emptiness is a promise winding over our heads"

"Take me where the water runs deep and chain me there so that I might sleep"

"Someone said it's getting boring, for about the hundredth time"

Sorry to Lynn Canfield if I got the lyrics wrong.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 3 August 2018 18:14 (three years ago) link

Just two Area albums to get and one more Moon Seven Times album. Then there's Shotgun Wedding and I whole bunch of Lanterna.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 3 August 2018 18:16 (three years ago) link

First Lanterna album is 100x classic (as are the first couple Moon Seven Times records... don't think I ever got Sunburnt?)

com rad erry red flag (f. hazel), Friday, 3 August 2018 20:08 (three years ago) link

My Medicine is like the most midwestern shoegazing track ever

com rad erry red flag (f. hazel), Friday, 3 August 2018 20:13 (three years ago) link

two months pass...

Faith & Disease's fifth and final studio album is a bit like Insularia (third album). I liked things about it but again it taken quite a while and never clicked as much as I wanted it to. Even Beneath These Trees (fourth album) was a similar experience but sounds distinctly different (pretty much a folk album) and features probably their best song ever. But I really prefer the first two albums.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 5 October 2018 19:02 (two years ago) link

two months pass...

Black Tape For A Blue Girl - As One Aflame Laid Bare By Desire

Could this be called a concept album about a Marcel Duchamp piece?

I've got quite a few albums still to get but I'll be surprised if "Given" isn't one of their top 3 songs. Marvelous.

The sequence of "Your One Wish", "Dulcinea", "The Green Box" and "Denouement/Denouncement" is a great string of tracks.

Not one of my favorite albums by them but the highlights are as strong as they've ever been before.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, 8 December 2018 15:54 (two years ago) link

It's a great record yes. Any thoughts on the Black Tape and DCD records they put out this year?

Siegbran, Monday, 10 December 2018 13:23 (two years ago) link

Have you always been into this stuff? Only really noticed you were a fan in the last few years.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 10 December 2018 13:42 (two years ago) link

Not really as deeply as into the other stuff I post(ed) a lot about here over the years but yes I've always been into the ethereal/ambient side of it, way more than dancefloor/pop goth which most of the time gets way to hysterical for me.

I don't really know a lot about the obscure stuff and I'm not a 4AD/Projekt obsessive, but the big names I've mostly followed throughout the years, DCD/Cocteau/ITN/Black Tape, later Bel Canto, etc and later the whole Coil/NWW/DI6/C93 axis, and the neoclassical side, Amber Asylum, Elend, Vas, Arcana, DVKE etc.

Siegbran, Monday, 10 December 2018 14:09 (two years ago) link


Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 10 December 2018 14:40 (two years ago) link

I'm aware that they're supposed to be good but haven't tried yet.

Siegbran, Monday, 10 December 2018 14:43 (two years ago) link

I think they might be the best thing in this sub-genre. A lot of metalheads love them and Xasthur covered them.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Monday, 10 December 2018 15:41 (two years ago) link

Lycia's Ionia is classic, and just got reissued so it's also easy to get ahold of! Even in tote bag form.

the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 10 December 2018 16:08 (two years ago) link

two months pass...

Recently saw Dante's Inferno (about Dante Gabriel Rossetti) by Ken Russell and was pleased to discover it was the source of the clip at the start of Mors Syphilitica's debut album.

Had no idea about this band. Odd that they had 3 bands together.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, 9 March 2019 10:08 (two years ago) link

Okay, nobody told me there was a new Lycia album out last year, In Flickers. It's even on Projekt.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, 16 March 2019 17:17 (two years ago) link

two months pass...

Insides is probably the best Speaking Silence album by some distance, but again, could probably use a remaster/remix.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 24 May 2019 23:08 (two years ago) link

Also, recently got into Shelleyan Orphan and its a crime that they haven't been pushed harder by fans of this stuff, because it's as good as any of this stuff and competes with peak Cocteau Twins for sheer prettiness. Weird lack of praise for them.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 24 May 2019 23:13 (two years ago) link

five months pass...

Lisa Hammer - Dakini

I'm a fan of her work in Mors Syphilitica and Requiem In White so I was going to get this sooner or later. Detailed soundscapes with Lisa's voice (often multiplied), half of it kind of eastern sounding (sorry I cant be more specific) but going way way beyond the ambition of Dead Can Dance wannabes, whole load of instruments played, very warm and lush. Brilliant actually, it's sad so see this relatively ignored because it's the best thing I've heard with her (admittedly I haven't heard Primrose, NCS or Radiana). I understand that some fans of the more straight goth stuff will find this a stretch but it's worth it. The last three tracks are an amazing combo. One of the best Projekt style albums I've heard, please get it.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 1 November 2019 19:46 (one year ago) link

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 8 November 2019 22:01 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

Watched the 2015 Lisa Hammer interview on New York Real youtube channel. Mostly about her film work but she does talk about the band, her and Dame Darcy possibly starting the gothic Lolita movement and a vampire wanting to watch her urinate.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 24 December 2019 02:25 (one year ago) link

or bandS rather

Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 24 December 2019 02:28 (one year ago) link

five months pass...

So I'm listening to the new Chandeen (released in February 2020 looks like) and... wow. I'm not sure what I'm listening to here, but it kinda won me over. Lowy's got a passel of new-generation guest vocalists and is also breaking out some other stuff way outside of their usual gothic through-line.

avellano medio inglés (f. hazel), Wednesday, 3 June 2020 06:02 (one year ago) link

one month passes...

Any thoughts on Machine In The Garden? Surpised I can't find a single mention of them on this forum.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 00:04 (one year ago) link

never really given them a listen, no real reason besides there just being too much out there to listen to!

avellano medio inglés (f. hazel), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 01:03 (one year ago) link

two months pass...

Interesting list with a more specific slant

Robert Adam Gilmour, Tuesday, 6 October 2020 18:06 (nine months ago) link

three months pass...
Lisa Hammer (I thought she had retired that name?) is on "Hunted (Werewolves Of The Astral Plane)" and maybe some other tracks and it sounds good. It's not very gothy but I'm liking their stuff.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 29 January 2021 19:55 (six months ago) link

one month passes...

Idylls by Love Spirals Downwards continues to be a classic album start to finish

so tonight that I might ramona quimby (f. hazel), Thursday, 11 March 2021 03:16 (four months ago) link


Ned Raggett, Thursday, 11 March 2021 03:37 (four months ago) link

in other goth news, Dark Entries is reissuing Clan of Xymox's Peel Sessions EP on vinyl and digital in a few days:

Contains an amazing version of Seventh Time:

so tonight that I might ramona quimby (f. hazel), Thursday, 11 March 2021 05:11 (four months ago) link

four months pass...

I guess having a new singer prompted a different band name?

Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, 17 July 2021 19:00 (two weeks ago) link

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