I was wondering about this on the Aftermath Vs Hard Day's Night thread
A Hard Day's Night VS Aftermath
Mentioned in that thread are: Dylan, Desolation Row - 1965, 11:21Stones, Goin' Home - 1966, 11:13The Who, A Quick One, While He's Away - 1966, 9:10Love, Revelation - 1967, 18:57
Are there earlier long songs?
Was "Like A Rolling Stone", also from 1965 and at 6:13 I think quite long for a hit at that time (or even now?), the initial inspiration for this?
Are there exceptionally long recorded blues or folk songs that predate these, and inspired Dylan and The Stones?
― brio, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 13:43 (eleven years ago) link
I was really surprised by the length of Goin' Home the first time I heard it. That seemed pretty early for a track like that - I wonder what the inspiration was.
― Deafening silence (DL), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 13:46 (eleven years ago) link
re: Like A Rollin' Stone, I realize Dylan was doing 6 to 7-minute-long songs as early as his second record in '63, but LARS was his first really long rock n roll radio hit
― brio, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 13:48 (eleven years ago) link
James Brown, "Lost Someone" - 1963 (recorded 1962), 10:43(dunno if/how it counts, since it was originally split over two sides of the Live at the Apollo LP as "part 1" and "part 2")
― Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 13:49 (eleven years ago) link
interesting post on inspiration for Goin' Home from the Aftermath thread:
Regarding "Going home" - the idea of the long jam was stolen from Love who were playing what became "Revelations" in 1965 - it was then called "John Lee Hooker" Iirc. Mick saw them do it in LA, the next night Keith came along with Mick and saw them do it, and then used the idea as the template for "Going home". At least that's what I've read in two places - the "Da capo" sleeve notes and the book written by the drummer, or was it the bass player?
― Rob M Revisited, Tuesday, March 12, 2013 1:11 PM (Yesterday)
― brio, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 13:52 (eleven years ago) link
There's also Arlo Guthrie, "Alice's Restaurant" (1967) – 18:34
― my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 13:54 (eleven years ago) link
That's interesting - in which case I wonder what Love's inspiration was if the live version was as early as 1965.
― Deafening silence (DL), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 13:56 (eleven years ago) link
the seeds : up in here room - 1966, 14.45
love it ...
― mark e, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 13:56 (eleven years ago) link
isn't there a Fugs song or something?
― smh on the water (Drugs A. Money), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 13:58 (eleven years ago) link
Ray Charles, "What'd I Say" (1959) – 6:30
― my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 13:58 (eleven years ago) link
re: "Alice's Restaurant", JB's "Lost Someone", and the live version of "Up In her Room" - should live recordings count?
Seeds also had "900 Million People Daily All Making Love" which is 6:58 - but also only on a live record at the time.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOUhXHg4HCU
What's up with all the LA bands doing epic jams?
― brio, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:02 (eleven years ago) link
xxp "Virgin Forest" from their second album in 1966
also from 1966 = Zappa's "Return of the Son of Monster Magnet" though that is def in two movements, there's probably some Fahey, Basho, etc from 65-66 that could possibly qualify as well
― smh on the water (Drugs A. Money), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:03 (eleven years ago) link
Virgin Forest = 11:09Return/Son of Monster Magnet = 12:17
― smh on the water (Drugs A. Money), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:05 (eleven years ago) link
Freak Out! has "Help, I'm a Rock" (8:37) and "The Return of the Son of Monster Magnet" (12:22), and that came out in '66. From what I remember, they're more like collages than actual songs, though.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:06 (eleven years ago) link
Oops--synchronicity.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:07 (eleven years ago) link
sorry - the Seeds super-long "Up In her Room" is from the studio album "Web of Sound" - wiki says 14:45 in '67
― brio, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:08 (eleven years ago) link
Different strands of long here - the collage, the rock opera, the hypnotic jam, the stream-of-consciousness lyrical overload - each stemming from a different impulse.
― Deafening silence (DL), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:08 (eleven years ago) link
Chuck Berry and Bo Diddley
Chuck's Beat (10:36)Bo's Beat: (14:05)
1964
― how's life, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:09 (eleven years ago) link
its still ace though ..
― mark e, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:13 (eleven years ago) link
The Godz' "Crusade" (9:00), 1967.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:15 (eleven years ago) link
no no I was trying to give the Seeds credit, it's great.
― brio, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:18 (eleven years ago) link
and yeah it is from 1966!
bob dylan - sad-eyed lady of the lowlands 11:22 (1966)
― acid in the style of tenpole tudor (NickB), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:23 (eleven years ago) link
nina simone - sinnerman 10:19 (1965)
― acid in the style of tenpole tudor (NickB), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:27 (eleven years ago) link
Ella Fitzgerald "How High the Moon" 6:58 (1960)
― how's life, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:31 (eleven years ago) link
― how's life, Wednesday, 13 March 2013
good digging but then are instrumentals rock & pop songs?
& is ella rock or pop?
& then again aren't desolation row and sad-eyed lady really in the tradition of the long folk ballad?
See also Johnny Cash "The Legend of John Henry's Hammer" – 9:03, Blood, Sweat and Tears, 1963.
― don't call it a cloud rap i've been high for years (zvookster), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 14:50 (eleven years ago) link
woody guthrie's "tom joad" (6:34) came out on a double-sided 78 in 1940, re-issued in 1950.
― don't call it a cloud rap i've been high for years (zvookster), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 15:01 (eleven years ago) link
>>>are instrumentals rock & pop songs?
Instrumentals "Honky Tonk," "Sleepwalk" "Pipeline" etc. etc. were huge pop hits, obviously. Chuck and Bo were mining a longer, jammier version but there's a reason many of those old 45s had a part 1 and a part 2 on the B side; they were attempting to replicate in studio the lengthier workouts they were playing live.
― It's All Posable Colaboration (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 15:04 (eleven years ago) link
xp: the berry and diddley songs are morelike jams, but they are as "early rock" as anything has gotten on this thread.
Ella's song is a poppy jazz number. I dunno. You don't know what pop is, until you know the meaning of the blues.
― toulows-lautrec (how's life), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 15:05 (eleven years ago) link
Paul Butterfield Blues Band were also doing their instrumental jam "East-West" live around the time of Aftermath, which they then recorded at Chess in Chicago in time to be released in August '66 and which clocked in at 13:11. It's a much different thing than "Goin' Home," but it seems like this general idea was in the air at the moment.
― Josefa, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 15:34 (eleven years ago) link
― clemenza, Wednesday, March 13, 2013 10:15 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I am no friend of The Godz but this one song slays me every time.
― multi instru mentat list (Jon Lewis), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 15:39 (eleven years ago) link
they were all hanging out at the ash grove watching people like ravi shankar
― wk, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 15:58 (eleven years ago) link
^^^ and jazz.
― It's All Posable Colaboration (Dan Peterson), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 16:00 (eleven years ago) link
I think Sandy Bull's "Blend" (22:00) from his first album is an important precursor
― wk, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 16:01 (eleven years ago) link
1963
maybe the first sidelong guitar track?
― wk, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 16:03 (eleven years ago) link
nice list of albums with side long tracks http://rateyourmusic.com/list/Joci/albums_containing_at_least_one_side_long_track
― wk, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 16:05 (eleven years ago) link
a bunch of son house's paramount recordings contained p long songs split up into two tracks because obvs they can't fit on a single side of a 78. those were somewhere from 1928 to 1930.
― arby's, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 16:18 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.document-records.com/images/200s/DOCD-5002.jpg
looks like at least one garfield akers track had the same treatment. the son house recordings i'm p sure were from 1930, idk about akers.
Son House01 - My black mama - part 1 Listen02 - My black mama - part 2 Listen03 - Preachin` the blues - part 1 Listen04 - Preachin` the blues - part 2 Listen05 - Dry spell blues - part 1 Listen06 - Dry spell blues - part 2 Listen07 - Walking blues ListenWillie Brown08 - M & O blues Listen09 - Future blues ListenKid Bailey10 - Mississippi bottom blues Listen11 - Rowdy blues ListenGarfield Akers12 - Cottonfield blues - part 1 Listen13 - Cottonfield blues - part 2 Listen14 - Dough roller blues Listen15 - Jumpin` and shoutin` blues ListenJoe Calicott16 - Fare thee well blues Listen17 - Traveling mama blues ListenJim Thompkins18 - Bedside blues ListenBlind Joe (Willie) Reynolds19 - Outside woman blues Listen20 - Nehi blues Listen21 - Married man blues Listen22 - Third Street woman blue ListenRube Lacy23 - Mississippi jail house groan Listen24 - Ham hound crave Listen
Willie Brown08 - M & O blues Listen09 - Future blues Listen
Kid Bailey10 - Mississippi bottom blues Listen11 - Rowdy blues Listen
Garfield Akers12 - Cottonfield blues - part 1 Listen13 - Cottonfield blues - part 2 Listen14 - Dough roller blues Listen15 - Jumpin` and shoutin` blues Listen
Joe Calicott16 - Fare thee well blues Listen17 - Traveling mama blues Listen
Jim Thompkins18 - Bedside blues Listen
Blind Joe (Willie) Reynolds19 - Outside woman blues Listen20 - Nehi blues Listen21 - Married man blues Listen22 - Third Street woman blue Listen
Rube Lacy23 - Mississippi jail house groan Listen24 - Ham hound crave Listen
― arby's, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 16:24 (eleven years ago) link
COltrane had been going to 20 minutes+ for a few years by the time those '65 tracks came out. He seems to have been a big influence on a lot of people throughout the 60s. I think the SF Ballroom sound was an attempt to introduce his influence especially what he was doing with standards like MY Favourite Things into rock to some degree too, stretching out familiar melodies etc. In th ecase of the ballroom sound a loyt of those melodies were folk tunes etc.
But on the other hand you hear that bands like the Who were doing long rave ups on r'n;b material from their beginnings, at least as the Who. Noty sure if that comes from that influence.
Seems like the constraint may have been more on the recorded version of songs than the live ones. 3 minutes haveing been arrived at as the perfect maximum duration for a single at least. I heard taht there was ome gang controlled jukebox management that meant that things remained that way for a long time.
I also heard that when the recorded version was introduced it effected the way that even classical music was played. That before that the orchestra was more influenced by the applause of the audience as to how many times they repeated sections but that went out when the lp started to mean people were more accustomed to listening to a programmed sequence of music once only in correct sequence.
Both may be apocryphal.
― Stevolende, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 18:09 (eleven years ago) link
I think you could be right about Coltrane - a big influence on early psych.
― Deafening silence (DL), Wednesday, 13 March 2013 18:13 (eleven years ago) link
uh oh, I'm having deja vu to a dumb stubborn argument I had with shakey mo about this haha. but coltrane's stretching out goes back to ravi shankar as well.
― wk, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 18:20 (eleven years ago) link
it seems to me that the idea of music with particular fixed length really only exists in relation to recorded music. the length of a folk song depends on how many verses you want to sing. obviously really long form music stretches back throughout music history. and certainly where people are dancing there has always been an impulse to keep jamming as long as people keep dancing.
― wk, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 18:28 (eleven years ago) link
Townshend has gone on record as being influenced by Coltrane (and Sun Ra!) at that time, so yeah.
― Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 18:34 (eleven years ago) link
benny goodman orchestra's cover of "sing sing sing" rocks pretty hard for a big band tune from 1938. eight-and-a-half minutes. released as a double-sided 78. and to make sure they could get it all on record they expanded the width of the 78 from ten inches to twelve.
― Mr. Snrub, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 18:36 (eleven years ago) link
Similarly, Duke Ellington's "Diminuendo and Crescendo in Blue" in 1937. But while it was composed (and performed live) as a single, uninterrupted piece, technological constraints meant each piece had to be recorded separately.
― Tarfumes The Escape Goat, Wednesday, 13 March 2013 18:37 (eleven years ago) link
Fahey had def had long tracks throughout his early discography but "The Great San Bernadino Birthday Party" from the 1966 album of the same name clocks in at 19:00 and is the first one on record to stretch out past ten minutes (according to wiki at least)
― in 2013 we will all be yuppies from the 'eighties (Drugs A. Money), Saturday, 16 March 2013 17:32 (eleven years ago) link
first fahey track on record to stretch past 10 minutes, not first track ever.
― wk, Saturday, 16 March 2013 17:35 (eleven years ago) link
There are certainly a lot of long (traditional) folk songs, with lots of verses, not sure how many had been recorded by the early 60s. Dylan would certainly have heard more than a few, I would imagine.
― Step not on a loose unforgiving stone on a pyramid to paradise (Tom D.), Sunday, 17 March 2013 14:02 (eleven years ago) link
yep. two collections of 78s released on LP by Folkways in the 50's - Dustbowl Ballads & the Anthology of American Folk Music - would have been key for the folk revivalists of the sixties and both contain two-part longish tracks, but the limitations on length in recorded music before the sixties mean it's not a very fruitful avenue, compared to live music & manuscripts & maybe radio broadcasts.
so like dylan based "hard rain" on the trad anglo-scottish ballad "lord randall" and it was ten minutes long when he was debuting it live
and he'd be familiar with songs or accounts of songs like this one by pete seeger of woody guthrie: "Then he'd hitch his guitar around and sing the longest long outlaw ballad you ever heard"
― don't call it a cloud rap i've been high for years (zvookster), Monday, 18 March 2013 14:52 (eleven years ago) link
surprised the Yardbirds didn't record any epic studio rave-ups
― brio, Monday, 18 March 2013 16:44 (eleven years ago) link
So until we find further, earlier examples, those two Chuck/Bo tracks cited upthread are basically the earliest (1964) pop/rock recordings to break the ten-minute barrier? (Aside from being fabulous jams)
― Hongro Hongro Hippies (Myonga Vön Bontee), Thursday, 24 October 2024 19:06 (one week ago) link
Everyone on ILM hates the Doors, so I understand the omission, but just for the record:
The End - 11:43
― Instead of create and send out, it pull back and consume (unperson), Thursday, 24 October 2024 19:15 (one week ago) link
per a discogs review:
...Chuck Berry happened to turn up at Chess studios while Bo Diddley was in cutting a session, and they decided to try and do something together. The result was a pair of superb extended guitar workouts that were genuinely unique for their time because no rock & roll record up to this point had ever featured extended jams of this length...
― Kim Kimberly, Thursday, 24 October 2024 19:23 (one week ago) link
Big Joe Turner's "Wee Baby Blues" runs 7:20; it's from his 1956 album The Boss Of The Blues Sings Kansas City Jazz.
― Instead of create and send out, it pull back and consume (unperson), Thursday, 24 October 2024 19:34 (one week ago) link
Ewan MacColl, "Hind Horn", from "The English And Scottish Popular Ballads (The Child Ballads) Volume I" (1956) is 10:51 (a double album too!)
― The count has shot himself (Tom D.), Thursday, 24 October 2024 20:43 (one week ago) link
... "Constance of Cleveland" from "Broadside Ballads, Vol. 2" (1962) is 16:50.
― The count has shot himself (Tom D.), Thursday, 24 October 2024 20:51 (one week ago) link
Chuck Berry "Concerto in b'goode" (1968) 18:44
― Mark G, Thursday, 24 October 2024 22:56 (one week ago) link
Blues Project: "Two Trains Running" (Muddy Waters cover, 1966), 11:20
― Charlie Hair (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 24 October 2024 23:19 (one week ago) link
all due respect to the man but an 18-minute chuck berry song sounds like torture
― na (NA), Friday, 25 October 2024 13:46 (one week ago) link
my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram) at 1:58 13 Mar 13Ray Charles, "What'd I Say" (1959) – 6:30
― John Backflip (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Friday, 25 October 2024 14:06 (one week ago) link
Xpost it's on Spotify..
― Mark G, Friday, 25 October 2024 21:54 (one week ago) link
It's Chuck's version of a psychedelic jam and it's great!
― Hongro Hongro Hippies (Myonga Vön Bontee), Friday, 25 October 2024 22:09 (one week ago) link
Another Pt.1 & 2 45: Bill Doggett- "Honky Tonk" (5:37 total, 1956)
― Charlie Hair (C. Grisso/McCain), Saturday, 26 October 2024 04:31 (one week ago) link
concerto b goode is very cool, people can be skeptical but most people i've shown it to have liked it. it's a bit weirder than you might expect
― budo jeru, Saturday, 26 October 2024 04:55 (one week ago) link
Its his “Sister Ray”
― waste of compute (One Eye Open), Saturday, 26 October 2024 05:41 (one week ago) link
i like to think of it as his "in a silent way" because it's basically the same groove repeated for 18 minutes and you can hear the tape edits
― budo jeru, Saturday, 26 October 2024 15:18 (one week ago) link
It's kind of a "motorik" beat, isn't it? Anyways, I really like it.
Chuck B. and band also recorded a pair of 11-minute jnstrumental jams at Chess in 1958, but I can't imagine there were any plans to release those at the time.
― Hongro Hongro Hippies (Myonga Vön Bontee), Wednesday, 30 October 2024 16:04 (three days ago) link
It's kind of a "motorik" beat, isn't it?
Yeah, also sounds to me like something Manuel Gottsching might have recorded.
― Kim Kimberly, Wednesday, 30 October 2024 16:16 (three days ago) link