A Guy Called Gerald - Black Secret Technology vs. Goldie - Timeless

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed

Which is the better 1995 DnB classic?

Poll Results

OptionVotes
A Guy Called Gerald - Black Secret Technology 20
Goldie - Timeless 8


azaera, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 01:57 (six years ago) Permalink

BST still sounds great. I bought it a second time, when it was remastered/reissued. Timeless actually sounds anything but (though the title track brings back good memories.)

henry s, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 02:58 (six years ago) Permalink

I probably prefer BTS but a substantial amount of Timeless actually is timeless - esp. "Saint Angel", "Angel" and "Kemistry".

Tim F, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 03:49 (six years ago) Permalink

Timeless has a few nice tracks, but as a whole it represents some of the worst tendencies that took over jungle/d&b once it started become arty: overtly long noodling tracks, watered down coffee table/jazzy sounds signifying "deepness", etc. Though of course Goldie took all that's wrong with that album to the next level of shittiness with "Mother", but still, BST is better even with the crappy sound.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 07:37 (six years ago) Permalink

Give me Parallel Universe or The Self Evident Truth Of An Intuitive Mind over either of them, though.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 07:39 (six years ago) Permalink

LOL tuomas u so crazy

it took me 0.000001 seconds to vote for timeless

the late great, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 08:23 (six years ago) Permalink

a substantial amount of Timeless actually is timeless

not to mention timeless!!

the late great, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 08:23 (six years ago) Permalink

goldie's remix of universal love is better than the universal love on parallel universe, and it also has that problem a lot of 4hero material does where everything just starts to sound exactly the same, detroit synths, tinkling breaks, female vocalist going ahhhh ahhh ahhhh ahhhhh into the wormhole, etc.

it does have "paranormal in 4 form" and some other dope tracks but for whatever reason those tracks don't grab me the way the songs on timeless do. goldie came up with some serious earworm craziness - i've literally had "inner city life" stuck on my head since the instant i saw the thread title.

the late great, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 08:28 (six years ago) Permalink

Yeah the beats themselves on Timeless are super super memorable, they're like hooks in a way that just wasn't the case on Parallel Universe (or, if I'm honest, BST).

LOL at thinking Self Evident Truth is useful for anything except soundtracking a mud bath.

Tim F, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 09:25 (six years ago) Permalink

It's been years since last listened to Timeless, but I don't remember the beats on it being better than on Parallel Universe... Anway, if you think PU hasn't got awesome drums, you need to relisten to it, some of the beat chopping on that album is still jaw-dropping. It's true that the tracks on PU are kinda samey, but at least they're not lame.

You may laugh, but IMO Self Evident Truth does some of the things Goldie attempted in Timeless (formal experiments, jazzy and ambient moods) with more interesting and less coffeetable-ish results.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 09:46 (six years ago) Permalink

DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH

Une ville musulmane dans la Chine du Nord sous les Mongols (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 09:58 (six years ago) Permalink

sorry, that duh was directed at the question and you oddball Timeless voters

Une ville musulmane dans la Chine du Nord sous les Mongols (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 09:59 (six years ago) Permalink

So this is the tracklisting of the single-disc Timeless:

1 Timeless 21:02
1.1 Inner City Life
1.2 Pressure
1.3 Jah
2 Saint Angel 7:17
3 State Of Mind 7:06
4 Sea Of Tears 12:04
5 Angel 4:58
6 Sensual 8:13
7 Kemistry 6:50
8 You & Me 7:02

Now really, does anyone have any issues with any tracks apart from "State of Mind" and "Sea of Tears"?

So that's like, 75% greatness.

I still do prefer BST probably but this TS is in no way clear-cut.

Tim F, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 10:25 (six years ago) Permalink

it's not a question of Timeless being no good, it's a question of it not being Black Secret Technology

Une ville musulmane dans la Chine du Nord sous les Mongols (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 10:27 (six years ago) Permalink

Now really, does anyone have any issues with any tracks apart from "State of Mind" and "Sea of Tears"?

Ok yeah, if you swap those two for 'This Is a Bad' and 'Jah the Seventh Seal' off the 2CD version then Timeless would win this - that said, I haven't listened to BST in a while.

Gavin, Leeds, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 12:09 (six years ago) Permalink

Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking.

I need to listen to both again before offering firm opinions though.

Tim F, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 12:16 (six years ago) Permalink

I could see voting for the best hour of Timeless (not even sure "Inner City Life" would make that) but neither 1 or 2 CD versions that were actually released were as good as BST.

Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 12:48 (six years ago) Permalink

Haha yeah that seems right to me too.

Tim F, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 13:02 (six years ago) Permalink

BST isn't on Spotify but Timeless and man why the fuck don't I listen to this all the time

DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 14:25 (six years ago) Permalink

I mean, fucking Goldie

massive

DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Wednesday, 5 September 2012 14:28 (six years ago) Permalink

this is impossible

blank, Wednesday, 5 September 2012 19:53 (six years ago) Permalink

BST by miles tho the CD versions never sounded half as good as the vinyl copy i had of the first issue

X-101, Thursday, 6 September 2012 08:11 (six years ago) Permalink

i mean FFS

Une ville musulmane dans la Chine du Nord sous les Mongols (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 6 September 2012 08:13 (six years ago) Permalink

that's def the best track on BST and it is as good as the best on timeless but i think there's a fair amount of undistinguished stuff on BST

the late great, Thursday, 6 September 2012 09:23 (six years ago) Permalink

there's a crystalline quality to the whole of BST that "Finley's Rainbow" exemplifies for me but i don't find anything undistinguished on it. maybe it's more of a piece than Timeless which you could read as my positive spin on "samey" if you want

Une ville musulmane dans la Chine du Nord sous les Mongols (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 6 September 2012 09:42 (six years ago) Permalink

Had BST on this morning for the bus ride to work, apart from it being a more consistent listen than Timeless (there aren't any outright clunkers) I think it wins out for its sense of space - the arranging (if that's the best word for it) has so much depth and detail, just really great sonics. The highlights of Timeless ('Kemistry' and the title suite) are more beautiful than anything on BST though, so there is that.

Gavin, Leeds, Thursday, 6 September 2012 10:31 (six years ago) Permalink

Never ever got into Timeless, I always heared Goldie as a producer as a bit flat. Guy Called Gerald has been a great producer for a quarter of a decade now.

Ending track on this album so good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TEbqS3Wmnzg

Chewshabadoo, Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:16 (six years ago) Permalink

what are the clunkers on Timeless? i'm guessing most people think of the Not DnB tracks (because all the beat-heavy ones seem roughly equal in quality) as the weak links, which seems dubious.

nashwan, Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:19 (six years ago) Permalink

State of Mind, Sea of Tears and You & I are the ones that never really did it for me.

Gavin, Leeds, Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:38 (six years ago) Permalink

Adrift isn't that great either.

Gavin, Leeds, Thursday, 6 September 2012 11:38 (six years ago) Permalink

Spring Heel Jack - There Are Strings deserves to get mentioned in the discussion of best DnB LPs of 95. I've played it more than either BST or Timeless.

brotherlovesdub, Thursday, 6 September 2012 14:26 (six years ago) Permalink

As a stand alone cut, I could see how Sea of Tears would underwhelm, maybe sound too watered down in the context of its genre. But I do love how spacious the beatless sections are. And I think it fits well as a deep cut in the album.

azaera, Thursday, 6 September 2012 21:02 (six years ago) Permalink

<3 sea of tears and you & i, state of mind is just meh

the late great, Thursday, 6 September 2012 21:03 (six years ago) Permalink

Yeah I don't even really take issue with "Sea of Tears", but I see how it might put others off.

"You And Me" is straight fire beautiful though.

Tim F, Thursday, 6 September 2012 21:14 (six years ago) Permalink

State of Mind, Sea of Tears and You & I are the ones that never really did it for me

You & Me, surely? My second favourite on there (after Kemistry).

I've been to Suffolk (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 6 September 2012 22:01 (six years ago) Permalink

You may laugh, but IMO Self Evident Truth does some of the things Goldie attempted in Timeless (formal experiments, jazzy and ambient moods) with more interesting and less coffeetable-ish results.

― Tuomas, Wednesday, September 5, 2012 9:46 AM (5 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

To be fair to this album it goes in a lot harder than I ever remember when it's not actually playing. The ostentatious four minute ambient intro probably doesn't help.

Tim F, Monday, 10 September 2012 13:26 (six years ago) Permalink

playing "Life Unfolds His Misery" right now and this is an impossible question to answer

DARING PRINCESS (DJP), Monday, 10 September 2012 13:29 (six years ago) Permalink

Gothian Slip there

syntax evasion (Noodle Vague), Monday, 10 September 2012 15:36 (six years ago) Permalink

surprised nobody's recorded a black metal track called "Life Unfolds His Misery" tho

syntax evasion (Noodle Vague), Monday, 10 September 2012 15:37 (six years ago) Permalink

some dude grunting "CHOKE ON IT" before the drop

syntax evasion (Noodle Vague), Monday, 10 September 2012 15:38 (six years ago) Permalink

it took me 0.000001 seconds to vote for timeless

― the late great

Seconded.

millmeister, Monday, 10 September 2012 20:17 (six years ago) Permalink

gave timeless a listen for the first time in a while this afternoon and now feel confident about voting for BST.

circles, Monday, 10 September 2012 22:47 (six years ago) Permalink

BST is gonna win on contrarian obscureness quotient and/or finley's rainbow being better than anything else imo

the late great, Monday, 10 September 2012 23:14 (six years ago) Permalink

BST doesn't seem particularly obscure at this point though - its rep has grown a lot since / coinciding with the reissue a few years ago.

Like, both albums ended up on FACT's 100 albums of the 90s list, but BST chimes in with that entire sensibility (i.e. the one that considers all uk dance music as an idea to be reverse engineered from Digital Mystikz) better than Timeless does (though that disparity disappears if we're talking pre-Timeless Goldie or the first four years of Metalheadz) - and indeed BST was number 4 on the list...

It's the same dynamic that makes Groove Chronicles more feted today than MJ Cole.

Tim F, Monday, 10 September 2012 23:41 (six years ago) Permalink

its rep has grown a lot since / coinciding with the reissue a few years ago.

Did it's rep grow as a result of it not being in print, though? Timeless has been dollar bin fodder for ages; less mystique

blank, Monday, 10 September 2012 23:51 (six years ago) Permalink

Yes, I think that's right too. I think that mystique is like pressure that builds and is released at the time that the album then becomes readily accessible again - like a spring.

Tim F, Monday, 10 September 2012 23:57 (six years ago) Permalink

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

System, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:01 (six years ago) Permalink

mystique is like the perfect goldie tune title too. i've never really been able to get past the sludgy sound of BST. Jah the seventh seal is the best thing for me on either record. can't believe someone called goldie's production flat upthread, that track sounds like it's coming from another dimension.

jed_, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:14 (six years ago) Permalink

"Jah The Seventh Seal" is great but I think I would always have to go with "Angel" or (possibly)
"Kemistry" as best - the incongruous mixture of light and dark that Goldie managed on those tunes seems like his greatest contribution IMO.

Tim F, Tuesday, 11 September 2012 00:16 (six years ago) Permalink

welp

now this is happening

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdF5_6pYTbE

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 01:23 (six years ago) Permalink

Listened to Timeless on the way to/from class last night. Still a mindfuck.

blank, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 01:59 (six years ago) Permalink

Cliche but It really needs to be listened to loud.

blank, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:01 (six years ago) Permalink

that's because it's mastered by dilinja and optical!

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:50 (six years ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpMY6B1vzow

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:51 (six years ago) Permalink

actually the optical thing is a lie

it was rob playford, not optical

though i feel like optical did some sick engineering work before he made his name for himself

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:56 (six years ago) Permalink

the pre-dolphin song breakdown at 2:50 in universal love is the very definition of aquatic jungle

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:57 (six years ago) Permalink

what engineering work did optical do pre "To Shape The Future"?

Tim F, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:03 (six years ago) Permalink

i'm talking out of my ass, probably

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:10 (six years ago) Permalink

i think he did some ed rush and grooverider stuff

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:14 (six years ago) Permalink

and dom & roland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L94u1h0Rnx8

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:14 (six years ago) Permalink

groove called that track "more devastating than the borg"

optical two years before that track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrAqd98hnbw

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:15 (six years ago) Permalink

the way the drums go crazay from 1:00 to 2:00 in the boymerang remix is just so fucking next level

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:18 (six years ago) Permalink

and the bassline at 2:20 is just ... fucking sick

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 03:24 (six years ago) Permalink

youtubes don't load for me at work - what's the d&r track more devastating than the borg?

Tim F, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 04:20 (six years ago) Permalink

For what it's worth, this thread has convinced me I should give Timeless another try. At the time I was so underwhelmed by all its new age cheesiness, especially compared to earlier, awesome Metalheads singles, that I haven't actually listened to it since the 1990s. I think these days I have a much higher tolerance for cheesiness than I had back then.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 07:06 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah i don't feel like either record loses at the expense of the other, mostly this thread has just made me wanna dig up more of the 90s stuff i've forgotten, also d'n'b 4ever

syntax evasion (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 12 September 2012 08:14 (six years ago) Permalink

FWIW I think Timeless has regained a lot of mystique (or at least I've seen a lot more referencing of it late, inc. an installation playing "Mother" heh) - the whole new age-yness seems to vibe in w/a lot of art school kids/internet art/etc in the uh Lamp zone atm, lot of ~pristine~/dolphins/etc aesthetics going around.

― etc, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 02:14 (7 hours ago) Bookmark

idk if i'd have put it quite on the nose as this (not that you're wrong either mind) but i def agree timeless feels alive and like it still has a relevance compared to bst and indeed p much any of its dnb time capsule contemporaries

obv that is not a value judgement (although i like new things so for me it is)

r|t|c, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 08:29 (six years ago) Permalink

also i am the sort of reprobate that will try and air guitar to 'sea of tears' so ymmv

r|t|c, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 08:30 (six years ago) Permalink

Tim - boymerang's "still" VIP (optical / Dom & Roland mix!!)

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 09:07 (six years ago) Permalink

single disc of Timeless is practically worthless

At the time I was so underwhelmed by all its new age cheesiness

it doesn't really have that much of this tho does it? Sea Of Tears may be the only main offender but it still has one of the greatest loop-based openings ever. most of the albums darts between intense brutality and jazzy noodling, not whales n' crystals.

nashwan, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 10:05 (six years ago) Permalink

Well, by "cheesiness" I was also referring to the jazzy noodling.

Tuomas, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 10:42 (six years ago) Permalink

"sea of tears" is the shit

the late great, Wednesday, 12 September 2012 16:11 (six years ago) Permalink

three years pass...

RIP diane charlemagne :-(

the late great, Thursday, 29 October 2015 07:02 (three years ago) Permalink

^^^^^^

Tim F, Thursday, 29 October 2015 07:24 (three years ago) Permalink

But also here was a bit of offhand OTMness from me several years back (bolded):

Like, both albums ended up on FACT's 100 albums of the 90s list, but BST chimes in with that entire sensibility (i.e. the one that considers all uk dance music as an idea to be reverse engineered from Digital Mystikz) better than Timeless does

Tim F, Thursday, 29 October 2015 07:25 (three years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

timeless still >> bst

bst sounds like it was recorded through a cardboard tube

the late great, Thursday, 24 December 2015 06:24 (three years ago) Permalink

there's like three different mixes of BST, though, right?

lute bro (brimstead), Thursday, 24 December 2015 06:53 (three years ago) Permalink

or "masterings", whatever

lute bro (brimstead), Thursday, 24 December 2015 06:53 (three years ago) Permalink

i have two of them, the CDs from 95 and 96. the two of them sound objectively bad. i see they were remastered again in 2008 and 2012. how do the new ones sound? better, i hope.

the late great, Thursday, 24 December 2015 06:56 (three years ago) Permalink

I haven't been able to find a copy of anyversion for a reasonable price.. Timeless sets such a high bar for terrific production though, imo, i can't really criticize BMT for not sounding so crisp and bright or whatever. I actually kind of like the "murkiness" of BST, it's like there's a light mist falling on everything. I might prefer 28 gun bad boy, dunno if that's a challop or not.

lute bro (brimstead), Saturday, 26 December 2015 22:49 (three years ago) Permalink

aw jeez @ everyone who doesn't care for "sea of tears" in this thread

i fucking LOVE "sea of tears"

HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Saturday, 26 December 2015 22:53 (three years ago) Permalink

I have hippie type feelings about Inner City Life related to Buddhism and and life/death and the cosmos and stuff

lute bro (brimstead), Saturday, 26 December 2015 22:56 (three years ago) Permalink

I've always found BMT impenetrable (and it sounds like shit). Timeless gets my vote.

millmeister, Saturday, 26 December 2015 23:07 (three years ago) Permalink

I love taking sides threads like these that foster enthusiasm and good discussion and stuff.

lute bro (brimstead), Saturday, 26 December 2015 23:40 (three years ago) Permalink

Also, "Finley's rainbow" is so not the best song on BST, that's as abhorrent as saying "frontier psychiatrist" is the best avalanches song

lute bro (brimstead), Saturday, 26 December 2015 23:42 (three years ago) Permalink

Except Finley's Rainbow is awesome

lute bro (brimstead), Saturday, 26 December 2015 23:42 (three years ago) Permalink

It's just not the best

lute bro (brimstead), Saturday, 26 December 2015 23:43 (three years ago) Permalink

I have the BST mp3s from bleep.com that got released in '06 that I assume are basically the original CD versions and the '08 CD version. The '08 version has MUCH more bass, and it sounds cleaner overall. I had actually kind of forgotten how much different the bass is since I don't really listen to the older version anymore.

circles, Sunday, 27 December 2015 01:41 (three years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

> RIP diane charlemagne :-(

what the...

meisenfek, Monday, 15 February 2016 19:46 (three years ago) Permalink

The '08 version has MUCH more bass, and it sounds cleaner overall. I had actually kind of forgotten how much different the bass is since I don't really listen to the older version anymore.

I have the 1996 version of the album (the one with the colourful cover) and the 2008 remaster on CD, and I can't really hear much difference in the bass...? The bass is already super boomin' and deep in the 1990s release, it doesn't sound like Gerald did that much to it with the remaster. The main difference between the 1996 and the 2008 versions seem to be that the samples and high-end synth sounds are kinda crisper, but even with those the changes aren't dramatic or anything. Things like the "ooh, energy, I feel your energy" sample on "Energy" still sound muffled on the 2008 version. TBH, like someone said on the other BST thread, it sounds like Gerald mostly just upped the loudness level with the remaster. If you listen to the original side by side with the 2008 and raise the volume on the former so that it matches the higher loudness of the latter, the differences are pretty minor.

Tuomas, Monday, 15 February 2016 22:20 (three years ago) Permalink

Hmm, reading that other thread, some people seem to be saying that the mixing/mastering on the 1996 version was already changed from the 1995 version... I've never understood that this was the case, I thought the 1996 version was simply reissue with some tweaking of the tracklist. Can anyone who owns both of these tell me if there's a difference in sound between them?

The 1995 version has this cover:

http://vinyl301.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/front1.jpeg

The 1996 version has a different cover, and it also replaces "Voodoo Rage" with "Hekkle & Koch" and "Touch Me":

http://buildanddestroy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/R-105517-1190750594.jpeg

The 2008 remastered version has the same cover and tracklist as the 1995 one.

Tuomas, Monday, 15 February 2016 22:38 (three years ago) Permalink

Timeless just edges it over BST for me, but re: the discussion upthread you can count me in as one of the weirdos that prefers Parallel Universe to both.

― Grimes, Shoots & Leaves (Mr Andy M), Tuesday, 11 September 2012 20:09 (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

God, what the hell was I even on back then?

Non-italicised bit still stands though.

RA the Rugged Advisor (Mr Andy M), Monday, 15 February 2016 23:22 (three years ago) Permalink

Every sleeve variation is awful. Even Master P had better album covers in the 90s. Parallel Universe and Jacobs Optikal Stairway LP are both strong contenders for best dnb statement albums from the mid90s.

brotherlovesdub, Monday, 15 February 2016 23:27 (three years ago) Permalink

also i am the sort of reprobate that will try and air guitar to 'sea of tears' so ymmv

― r|t|c, Wednesday, September 12, 2012 1:30 AM (3 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

:D

HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Monday, 15 February 2016 23:41 (three years ago) Permalink

two years pass...

Literally the very best thing you could do today is buy all the “Producer’s Cut Series” tracks on A Guy Called Gerald’s Bandcamp. Seems to be all 94-95 era tracks and i would say in aggregate is actually superior to BST (no “Nazinji-Zaka” or “Glok (Remix)” though).

Tim F, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 15:35 (five months ago) Permalink

OMG

brimstead, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:55 (five months ago) Permalink

Here's hoping he unleashes 28 gun bad boy + all those white labels/acetates

brimstead, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:56 (five months ago) Permalink

but damn thank you for the tip

brimstead, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 19:56 (five months ago) Permalink

28 Gun Bad Boy isn’t up there but is available for streaming on Apple Music? Odd.

Anyway I think a lot of these are in fact white label releases - e.g. I know “Kicking Da Jungle Beat” was one of the white label tracks he put out in 1994.

Probably exaggerating above about these being better than BST but it is all great and sometimes spectular - I particularly like “Beat Dis” (probably 1993?).

Tim F, Tuesday, 8 January 2019 20:46 (five months ago) Permalink


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.