Jungle Rhythms

btw lex I was thinking today that I would like to do a thread where I intoduce you to awes jungle. Let me know if you're interested.

― Tim F, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:29 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i don't know what narc of sd is!

no seriously though the best thing about "one night stand" was how r&b it was, a garage remix is nice but we already have a ton of awesome mis-teeq garage songs. let them be r&b when they need to be.

um, i'm not sure about jungle really. i love goldie's "inner city life" and high contrast & no lay's "angels & fly" but my reaction to the actual beats tends to vary between "don't care about the grooves" to "actively dislike the grooves cuz they're so undanceable"

― lex pretend, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:32 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

narcissism of small differences

I'm mostly curious about how you'd categorise stuff in those two camps rather than actively keen to convert you.

But if you have an "actively dislike the grooves cuz they're so undanceable" category that isn't just about drill & bass then that probably explains about 90% of our diverging opinions on funky.

― Tim F, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:36 AM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i have basically no specific knowledge of jungle, when i first started to go clubbing i tried out a few d'n'b nights and didn't like them much.

drill & bass is just shit though, right? i don't think i've ever been wowed by jungle beat per se, rather than the song on top. (like, i'd love "inner city life" if it had a completely different beat.) i mean, you nailed it a while ago, you're a rhythm nerd and i'm a sonix nerd.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:43 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The reason I was thinking of it is kinda because so many of my ideas about groove are informed by this idea of rhythmic complexity and danceability existing on a bell curve (this is actually wrong and an over-simplification but anyway) where there's this tension, like, how far can you push the beats and make people want to dance harder?

When you ask people "what are the great jungle beats" sometimes they list stuff that's just like rhythmic frippery, complex or detailed but not super-propulsive, or they go in the other direction and list tunes that are hard-hitting but not particularly rhythmically impressive, and for me the sweet spot is where these two axes meet. And I think this logic is true for funky too (interestingly, I'm not sure if this applies so cleanly for a lot of 2-step).

xpost - any d&b night that has existed while you have been alive of age would not be a good reference point.

Okay I'm gonna start a thread about awesome jungle beats and you can hang there or not as you like.

― Tim F, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:45 AM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark

oh if this is where we're continuing:

that's interesting, obviously in terms of clubbing i started with house and techno where there's no rhythmic complexity, and i still think of that simplicity as a platonic ideal.

garage i've always thought of as pop music, and when it comes to pop/r&b my platonic ideal is basically the janet/ciara style of rhythms that may be ridiculously fast or complex but are fundamentally steady enough to use in the regimented atmosphere of a street dance class. 2-step beats fit into that framework, loosely.

what i find amazing about uk funky is how it leans towards both at the same time, but at the same time i don't really care about its beats if it's not leaning towards either.

jungle has never really fit into either framework afaik.

― lex pretend, Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:51 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

This is one of my favourite jungle beats ever, so tactile and crisp, the beats really ripple across yr skin. And the atmospheric synth stuff is so fantastically cheesy-eerie. And the bass so solid. But beyond this what I love about tunes like "She's So" is that, while the beat is constantly mutating, it does so in this completely organic and subtle manner, not really calling attention to itself, like the rhythm morphs not to startle you but in accordance with some weird interior logic of it's own.

FBD Project - She's So

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlNFEsyq5PQ

The best jungle really operates according to an entirely different logic to that I think (responding to yr post lex): this sounds naff or cliched but the beats become the storyteller, and the melodic and textural motifs become the supporting framework like the beat would be in a pop tune; it's like an inversion of the normal structure of popular rhythmic music.

Photek gets a lot of stick (including from me) for various reasons but circa 1994-1995, my god this stuff just blows my mind. "Consciousness" I think you might even like lex, really the perfect fusion of the more refined melodic jazzy tendencies that had well and truly crept in by that point, with beats that just sound like nothing else, it feels like a drummer in your brain hitting different parts of your skull:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX08_phQHEY

One thing i've always found interesting in jungle (in everything, but some jungle helps to focus the issue) is the relationship between rhythmic complexity and rhythmic simplicity in a single track, like, how a simple rhythm can be metonymic for a complex one. 4 Hero's "We Who Are Not As Others" is unusual because it starts off complex and kinda all over the place and then gets more straightforward, like it's burrowing down to some core of boshing beneath all the pyrotechnics. 4 Hero were never reductionists so it never gets that simplistic, and maybe that's why they could pull off this trick so well, but I still find myself shocked by the sense of unity between the different rhythmic approaches taken; the underlying message seems to be "we can fuck you up in so many ways."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX08_phQHEY

Argh, wait, here's "We Who Are Not As Others":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qs74cY0qITk

You might have guessed that I'm pretty drunk right now.

(As an aside I'd have thought that rhythm was one of the main attractions of minimal circa. 2005-07, the more polyrhythmic end especially when there wasn't much else going on in the music)

i never got into that end of minimal compared to the stuff that was more about textures and melodies (estroe, "dexter", booka shade etc)

zpost yeah that's a huge part of what I liked about it! There was a little-acknowledged dare-I-say-it jungle sensibility to stuff like this tune:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_83MrEdpgg

Actually not surprisingly the above sounds a lot like a more serious version of uk funky...

I was too young to ever appreciate jungle beyond a 4-disc compilation from the supermarket I got on the cheap, I eagerly await this thread filling up.

it's too bad les twins weren't around to make dance videos in the '90s

This kind of stuff was my jam in the jungle days: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vts6rqJHMK8

Or on a less jump-up, deeper tip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqvBaU_m1mw

not '90s, but this track hits a sweet spot between groove & variation, or consistency & complexity:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM8qKXGiHcU

that 4hero track is so epic

This sprang to mind for some reason, Imo a very unique and original record, combining "Rolling" but minimal bristol style beats with a kind sickly sweet euphoric ambience and a whole range of weird screwed samples.

11 minutes long and the main section doesnt even start till 3:30 so feel free to skip ahead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO-UfM7X_5w

You can't have one of these threads without Shy FX & UK Apachi - "Original Nuttah". I still remember thinking my entire head was melting the first time I heard this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACCDZlLLV0I

another face-melter from the (IMO) essential Law of the Jungle compilation: Junior Dan - "Heartless"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuHhzk9brKI

Not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere on ILX, but Raime's mix of old skool jungle for FACT is excellent: http://www.factmag.com/2011/10/17/fact-mix-292-raime/

1. Steve C and Monita – The Razors Edge – Skeleton Records 1994
2. DJ Buz – Slave – No U-Turn 1994
3. 4 Horsemen Of The Apocalypse – We Are The Future (Phantasy & Aphrodite Mix) – Tone Def 1994
4. Blame & Justice – Nightvision (D’Cruze Mix) – Moving Shadow 1994
5. Undercover Agent – Dubplate Circles – Juice 1996
6. Dillinja – Deadly Deep Subs Remix – Deadly Vinyl 1995
7. The Truper – Vol 1 Side B – Street Beats 1994
8. Doc Scott – It’s Yours – Metalheadz 1994
9. DJ Tamsin & The Monk – A Better Place (Baby Kane Remix) – White House Records 1994

if lex of all people doesn't like this one then we should probably give up trying to convert him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq0vPjDY7TA

also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGPgzg7V3Bk

miko yup it was mentioned in www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=41&threadid=35392 which is a nice supplement to this thread

hmm All-time BEST Drum n' Bass/Jungle Mix ??

"Wishing On A Star" is an excellent call

oh yeah. and for pop remixes, this one is a favorite, less for the drums than the bassline at 3:00 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfMtTOEFuwE

I love this one to death, too: Deep Blue - "The Helicopter Tune"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krps2ok4smc

hahaha i'm loving these other aphrodite remixes - i got 5 on it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEr0P7x51k

I don't know if this is too much hardcore/breakbeat precursor than actual jungle/d&b but Lex, you should track down THE JOINT because it's 100% fantastic from start to finish.

dan, you've heard the 2 bad mice remix of helicopter, yes?

Yes! It's great!

I just posted every vid from The Joint that I could find on Youtube (the only one missing is the original "Mystic Stepper") on the ITR music thread btw

lol:

deep blue - "helicopter tune (2 bad mice remix)"

!!! Is this the version that made it onto the Speed Limit comps? If not, I MUST HEAR THIS.

― The Ghost of Black Elegance (Dan Perry), Thursday, September 29, 2005

i'll see if i can ysi tomorrow dan. it's totally different.

― strng hlkngtn (dubplatestyle), Thursday, September 29, 2005

what did we ever do before youtube?

well, ysi, i guess.

great squiggly pascal track
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WaISj2xWY0

is there a dj hype remix of "on and on"? that shit would rule

a legit jungle remix of "on and on" by anybody would rule, actually.

helicopter tune is a...tune

People can talk about what they like in this thread of course, but I started it to talk about tunes with drums that really sing. Like this amazing early Source Direct tune "Fabric of Space", which really captures that moment in the trajectory from atmospheric jungle into, I dunno, post-techstep I guess, the same trajectory all the best and hardest Goldie tunes ever were on. The snares on this are so tactile and impacting!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVOPJNFRG78

ay ay ay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De8HwaiQnBA

since i've been "rinsing" it lately, chaps. cheerio.

great thread, tim.

early source direct is great. 'snake style', 'bliss' and 'secret liasons' (not so early but still one of my top 5 jungle tunes). but i'm more of a mood nerd (if such thing exists) when it comes to jungle.

beat wise, always loved this dj crystl tune :

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/B6ZX5-TkOxA"; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

haha tim i was basically trying to coax lex into paying more attention to jungle by spoonful-of-sugar'ing it via tunes with elements i know he loves already.

i'm not doing very well with these selections i'm afraid (three in) (didn't get to the end of any of them), i'd previously thought i just didn't know enough about d&b but i think i just don't like it :/

i don't like the way the beats...sound? i'm not putting it very well but they don't have any OOMPH to them

that "wishing on a star" track is pretty good though!

So being a 'sonix nerd' means rating Nightslugs, but disliking the entire genre of d&b and jungle (bar 'Wishing on a Star)? Seems weird. I feel bad for you :(

how on earth are you meant to dance to jungle? it's like idm to me tbh

You either follow the snares high-road martial arts-style or go for skanking to the slow-down dubby basslines. Usually, a bit of both. Also, drugs.

This would be my contribution, not sure if it sings enough for Tim though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2NNM5UWlQo

xxp what, and no love after 3 mins? man truly you are a disgusting cartoon savage

I wonder how much adjusting to different rhythm logics is a bit like learning a new language - i.e. it's much much easier and more intuitive the younger you are when you start.

I got into jungle at the same time as really properly getting into house and techno (at about 16/17). Hardcore rave and 2-step garage as well. So house and/or techno were never at the center of my notion of danceable beats, and instead I think even my approach to house/techno was vaguely "junglist" (or perhaps garage-ist).

idk, jungle was some of the first dance music i heard in the 90s. obv not in a clubbing context though. but it's not like house/techno is the only rhythm logic i can get into (going to street dance class really gave me a new insight into a lot of hip-hop rhythms, albeit ones i already liked, but in terms of how to hear them and move to them). the prob w/jungle is that i can't actually discern any rhythm logic at all - i assume the beats aren't random but they may as well be for me.

xxp what, and no love after 3 mins? man truly you are a disgusting cartoon savage

i think what happened at 3mins infected everything that happened after it and the house diva never came back. the 3mins mark inspired me to finally start going through some invoices and then i forgot to pay attention :/

i listened to "inner city life" yesterday and really enjoyed it though

idk, jungle was some of the first dance music i heard in the 90s. obv not in a clubbing context though.

I think this is kind of key though. I listened to a reasonable amount of erm "album dance" music in the mid-late 90s (Orbital, Aphex Twin, Goldie, The Chemical Bros, The Prodigy, Moby, BT, Deep Dish, Roni Size, Plaid, Lo-Fidelity Allstars... basically any dance music likely to get a big album review in Spin) and also stuff that I guess you could call jungle-pop (EBTG, Lamb) but I don't think I really cared about rhythm, or not in the same way, until I started dancing a lot.

Once I did, it was like the moment in The Wizard of Oz where the image switches from black & white to colour. Within a very short space of time I started to hear lots of things I hadn't heard both in music I wouldn't have liked previously and music that I already had liked. And it was really in that period that a lot of my unthinking musical prejudices (not so much convictions, more the way what I instinctively listen for in the music).

but it's not like house/techno is the only rhythm logic i can get into (going to street dance class really gave me a new insight into a lot of hip-hop rhythms, albeit ones i already liked, but in terms of how to hear them and move to them).

Exactly. Learning how you move to rhythms is a huge thing which i think can be entirely separate from simply enjoying them as a listener (esp. when they can be enjoyed in the context of songs).

I would hazard a guess that your approach to rhythm in dance music generally is less house/techno-ist than it is R&B-ist.

Jungle is at the pointy end of this issue because it's difficult to background it, you either get it or it's a problem. Whereas it's a bit easier to simply tolerate or passively enjoy a lot of other beats.

idk what an r&bist approach to rhythm would even be!

the other thing that was kind of life-changing in how i heard hip-hop rhythms was the first time i was driven around in atlanta. it was like, ohhhhh so this is what this music is made for. hard to explain but the rhythm of travelling in a car and the rhythm of the music was a completely natural fit. (cf london where no one ever has cause to get in a car that isn't a taxi, i think i've been in maybe one car a year since i've lived here)

enjoyable to read though that lunatic theory was, i would suggest that "no one ever" type generalisations may just perhaps be somewhat beyond you

Oooft there's some proper beauties on that lovers/r & b jungle thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gypbn-PpkxM

possibly a tiny bit too on the nose for tim's 'beats as storyteller' binary (ie. erm, ultradeluxe triphop and not dance music per se maybe) but everything coming after the intro setpiece here is just fantastically, captivatingly atmospheric and evocative, always keeping you in this prowling lull but constantly offguard in a unsettling state of paranoiac restlessness, nightmares in paradise

I get the trepidation re 'fit' but nonetheless that's awesome!

idk what an r&bist approach to rhythm would even be!

In retrospect I was half-remembering what you'd said at the top of the thread:

garage i've always thought of as pop music, and when it comes to pop/r&b my platonic ideal is basically the janet/ciara style of rhythms that may be ridiculously fast or complex but are fundamentally steady enough to use in the regimented atmosphere of a street dance class. 2-step beats fit into that framework, loosely.

I know that doesn't really explain your love of house and techno except perhaps analogously - i.e. something (rhythms, synth tones etc.) takes the place of the "song" and more generally the place of rhythm is as something that can be distinct and impressive but always in the service of a broader structure which it underpins.

The Razors edge, posted up-thread, has to be one of the most undervalued example of rhythmic science in jungle. Skeleton on a whole were a killer label, its just a shame they didnt have a Pete Parsons on board as the production is invariably dodgy.

Some of the later adventures of Steve Gurley are great examples of stuff that straddles the line between experimentation and danceability:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj7-6RrepIk

D'Cruze is often accused of crossing that line, especially with 'control', but I reckon he mostly stays on the right side:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clhajsaAy_E

Always loved this one, weird off kilter beat, with the amen pushed tight down in the mix. Really come into its own in the mix:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csfZB61oARg

Hi droid, never realized you posted here. Mercy Mercy is big big big, yes.
I'm not the biggest fan of his stuff generally but Cool Hand Flex did some to go through a real purple patch round about 94-95:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFWChSbhKw4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob-Z7PIuDIE

& of course
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lqIZg8JMaU

Mercy Mercy definitely the stand-out for me though.

One for rtc and the juxtaposition/r&b/dancehall heads (maybe):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rn7L8E6dynU

Great track!

i don't actually think i ever loved a funky house tune for its rhythm.

THIS IS INSANE TO ME.

Haha I'm glad I'm not the only one who listens to funky for rhythm (inter alia) - was starting to feel like a pariah weirdo.

yeah, for me a huge part of funky's appeal was the fact that it seemed to be on a constant quest to find interesting new variations of rhythms i already liked

I have a piece coming out in a french journal in a few months about funky's approach to rhythm and it's on exactly this point, the way in which funky seemed to slide between the rhythmically familiar and the unfamiliar, managing to be rhythmically comforting and confounding at the same time. This isn't a new trick in dance music but I tend to think funky's golden age took it an extreme (to the extent one can describe such a state of inbetweenness as "extreme").

rhythmically comforting and confounding at the same time.

spot on. one of those central tensions.

i don't think i ever heard funky as rhythmically confounding - insofar as i noticed the rhythms they provided a very comforting sweet spot

Lex it's fair to say that little if any of the funky you seemed to like most could be described as rhythmically confounding, in particular stuff like "In The Air" and "Falling Again" are basically straight vocal house.

I have a piece coming out in a french journal in a few months about funky's approach to rhythm

!!

it'll be in french though.

Rev, did you ever hear Dubplate Wonder's Wonderland 09 set? It's all his own productions and it is basically all about that tension, 100%.

Pretty much cosign what Rev & Tim are saying about funky.

Having another boring day where I'm trying to get myself writing, so thought I'd throw in some more thoughts on the whole is jungle danceable/how do you dance to jungle thing -
I guess there were aspects of it that I initially had problems with as a dance, but for me it wasn’t so much the full-on Amen rinse-out tunes that I had problems with – yeah it could be difficult, at times nearly impossible to follow every single beat on them but I could at least generally spasm about to them in the same way that I used to do with like Bad Brains or F-Minus or whatever. I guess in that respect it’s helpful that the Amen break has an inherent degree of energy and forward-motion in it that will come through no matter what way it’s chopped and reordered.

The kind of tunes I had more trouble with were the very strongly reggae-influenced tunes that mostly came out in 94 at the peak of jungle’s popularity. Trying to think of good examples here – Dem A Gwarn Like Dem Know Badness by Tek 9 would be one, or even Idiot Sound by New Blood. Both great tunes of course, and there were loads of others in that style that I loved and straight away wanted to dance to, i.e. I found the rhythmically compelling but wasn’t quite sure how to move my body to them.

I think part of this came from how the producers folded the breakbeats down into that skanking reggae groove – it would create an effect where the beat would seem to drop out at unexpected places, or else where the overall beat pattern of the tune would feel lop-sided or lurching until you got used to it. I think I’ve pretty much got there with dancing to these tunes – of course, like with almost all dance music I’m never sure that I’m dancing the right way to it. I’ve danced to jungle in clubs but not really for full sets and obv not with og jungle ravers so it’s hard to measure my moves against anything. But I can move to it without really thinking about it now which I think is a big part of it, like I’m not often standing around and hesitating.

As a dancer the first kind of jungle tunes that did hook me were along the lines of the M-Beat one I posted upthread, i.e. ones with a beat pattern that was immediately captivating but also concise and not too difficult to follow. Also more steady-rollin’ kind of tunes like The Burial, Helicopter Tune, Sovereign Melody etc. Those were the ones I found myself intuitively making moves to while listening.

Lol 'as a dancer' sounds so pompous, 'from a dancing pov' is maybe a better way to put it.

i'm with the lex on this thread. man, its hard for me to think of too many genres or sub-genres i never want to hear. but this would be one of them. and i try too. i just played portions of every youtube on this thread.

Hey Andy - I used to post a bit on ILC, but I mainly lurk waiting for that rare beast - a good thread about jungle.

RE: Flex. He's a bit patchy fer sure , but I'll forgive him anything because of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm6qSLB84-0

And this sublime pulsating bass hot pants 4/4 kick combo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jrVR7MOIlg

I have a piece coming out in a french journal in a few months about funky's approach to rhythm

#rare #based

Hey Andy - I used to post a bit on ILC, but I mainly lurk waiting for that rare beast - a good thread about jungle.
Haha I feel you on this - don't post here all that much but when I first saw this thread my eyes totally lit up. Trying to get a bit more involved with things here at the moment though.
Had forgotten about Ya Buzzin Again actually, it's a good 'un yeah.
Have listened to that Steve Gurley FX In Dub Mix tune you posted 10+ times in the last few days btw, so good.

So dark that this wasn't the version of "Watching Windows" used on the album:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX9sas7qoLE

wow

DJ Die remix was also great, but this version goes so fantastically with the actual song, makes it maybe the equal of "Share The Fall".

One of my favourite things about the best Roni/Reprazent beats circa New Forms is how that whole investment in sounding like a live drummer translates into this rhythms where it constantly sounds like the beat is just about to fall behind itself, is always working frantically to keep up. Rather than "fluidity", the effect is a very human wired twitchiness.

i don't actually think i ever loved a funky house tune for its rhythm.

my mind is still boggling at this assertion two years later

Haha

loool

this was a good thread

Vaguely related to peak-era Reprazent, I'm interested in that half-missed opportunity circa 1995-1997 for grooves that were on a Davis/Hancock meets Jon Hassell fourth world tip. Hidden Agenda are the obvious example here but I think they actually verge on being too fiddly when in this mode (my favourite HA track remains "Dispatch #2", which is more of a neurofunk affair).

This was inspired by listening to Form & Function again and rediscovering Peshay's remix of "Rings Around Saturn", the way he redeploys those razor-sharp isolated snares within that constantly pirouetting jazz-funk groove. "On The Nile" probably is a good example of this as well though I'd have to listen again to say just how good.

Funny how drum & bass passed by so many interesting potential avenues of exploration so quickly in its accelerating plunge towards rhythmic conformity. I've really only heard the singles from Miles From Home but they suggested that by 1999 Peshay had totally smoothed out his beats. Even "P vs P"!

Don't know if this can exactly be called jungle, but what it can be exactly called is incredible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se1PuiDSVmA

Well duh

In retrospect Trace and Nico's "Damn Son" sounds rather like a hot uk funky rhythm played too fast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvhZofXqr_A

Remarc - RIP, DJ Hype Remix. Completely mental.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5nIqbq3S-w

Therapy? - Loose (Photek remix)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E8ebG0faFA

^^^ more d 'n b I suppose, but still great

This Klute remix of Lamb's "Little Things" - so awesomely on that Arcon 2 tip of destroying you with science:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mjzgcX9_ZU

that was good - enjoyed that. i don't know why i find so much of jungle/d'n'b boring though. where i live it's almost the law that you have to like jungle but unless it's something outstanding, i tend to find it inert or just a bit uninteresting after a couple of tracks.

i definitely prefer the furious ragga-based stuff from the early nineties to the more jazzy, stop-start stuff from the mid-decade onwards. I find that stuff frustrating.

check the reverb on this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KABz5IfhzUs