Classic or dud : Jane's Addiction

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I love ritual, (esp. the second side- its on cassette - does it work as a cd ? ) but never bought anything else by them - my mate sez they're the prog chillipeppers

whaddya think ?

Geordie Rocka, Wednesday, 2 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

borderline classic, i wouldn't want to have them absent from my collection, although they get little play anymore.

Jeff, Wednesday, 2 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Some of their songs are alright, but overall they just bore me so I have to unfortunately vote dud.

Ally, Wednesday, 2 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

On first listen it sounds like it could be dud, but I found that Jane's grew on me like crazy. It's certainly informed by classic r-o- c-k, but it's also got a sinister edge running through all of it that's delicious. Some tracks on Nothing's Shocking did an about-face for me, including the first couple of songs. "Standing in the Shower...Thinking" is pretty catchy despite everything else going against Jane's, including that voice...if you can't get past Farrell's voice, you're done for as far as they go. If you like Ritual, you'll probably like Nothing's Shocking, too.

Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 2 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Hmm, Nothing's Shocking is what got me and my friends off Big Black. It sounded like the future to us then, wow, it was punk and it was metal, but it was also mysterious... then, stuff like Pixies came out, for instance.

I'll say dud for the simple fact that it was probably nothing more ingenius than Van Halen... it just seemed like it was... all the magickal atmosphere stuff came straight out of classic rock along with the hippie vibe Perry had going... Seems very well marketed and thought-out in retrospect. He was like a peace punk, huh? It feels like classic rock to me now. Back when I was a kid it didn't. Good music for kids, just like the rest of the Lollapalooza stuff.

, Wednesday, 2 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

CLASSIC.

Kids who could never see eye to eye on anything - long hair in front vs. hair long in back, dead milkmen vs. led zeppelin, goth chicks and smiths fans, our u.s. equivalents of ravey davey and also student grant could all sing along (in a thin whinge in no way approximating perry ferrel's delivery). This is what made them great. Such extremes all in one group, Ain't No Right was like kick out the jams for us, a power-sander decadence.

It's easy to forget all that when you see pics of ferrell dj'ing progressive trance.

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 2 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Completely dud. Their brains are fried to the max. They look like shit. They're music is just plain bonkers like Zappa's: tries to be funny but fails miserably. I suspect they tried to do the sock thing but they couldn't find any baby socks...

Stevie Nixed, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Nononono! It's Classic. 'Nothing Shocking' and 'Ritual de lo Habitual' are just brilliant albums. Imaginative, expansive, energetic, intelligent, all those qualities rock music seem to have lost are there. Saw them live twice: amazing.

Omar, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

you know how those old black&white movies always begin with the kid at the olde time faire where an ancient fortune teller hag predicts something horrible will happen to him in the future, and then we cut to fifteen years later and the guy is rich and happy and everything is fine until he finded the FUCKING CURSED NECKLACE and then he remembers what the old witch told him? i've only heard one or two janes addiction songs and i really didn't give a shit, but i have a horrible feeling that fifteen years from now i'll like them a lot, contrary to all kinds of music i ever wanted to listen to. someone tell me this doesn't happen, please.

ethan, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

From what I gather of your taste from the other threads, you're probably safe, Ethan. neurobuddy is right in at least one thing, in that they're probably now classic rawk just from the fact that they influenced a lot of up-and-coming groups that made it into the mainstream. I don't think that diminished what they achieved in the least, but I have this feeling that it's probably not the sort of thing you grow into.

Sean Carruthers, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Absolutely, incontrovertably classic. You will not change my mind on this one.

Dan Perry, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I never got into them that much, but they accomplish a lot in their time. Who else has ever brought together the punks and the hippies so succesfully? They're classic.

Mark, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Who else has ever brought together the punks and the hippies so succesfully?
True. I think J's Ad. put too much in the mix. Metal... punk... psychedelica... pop... it just gave me a headache.

Stevie Nixed, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

incredibly horrible.

keith, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Side 2 of "Rituol de la habituol" still sounds magical to this pair of ears. Mysterious, plaintive, drug-blasted, free from the bombast that slightly soiled "Nothing Shocking". And they had the good grace too disintegrate spectacularly before becoming corporate monsters.

Stevo, Friday, 4 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Bringing the Hippies and the Punks together, surely that gave us Crusties.

K-reg, Friday, 4 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Surprised I came in so late on this -- inconceivably wonderful, despite the fact that Perry Farrell is eminently punchable. That personality flaw aside, oh baby. In fact, the weather is such today that I will go home and put on "Summertime Rolls."

Ned Raggett, Friday, 4 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Undoubtedly a balls out, hard rockin', dope smokin', face slappin' classic. Formed my early to late teens, and meant the world to me, I thought Perry Farrell was a genius (still do I guess), and 'Three Days' is just an AWESOMELY EPIC song, I never fail to get gooosebumps all over when it kicks back in midway through..."Erotic Jesus......". Absolutely classic rock, and the earlier stuff is just as good, and contrary to popular opinion I reckon that Porno For Pyros were classic too, even the first album, I know I need special care.

achilles_last_stand, Saturday, 12 May 2001 00:00 (nineteen years ago) link

one year passes...
I might be a year late on this board but might I can't let that stopping me from saying that Jane's are subliminaly brilliant. Transcendental music to bathe the soul in.

Whatever this chap Stevie Nixed is taking it is clearly stronger than the bubbly orange that Jane's were partial to. For, Mr. Nixed is talking pure cock.

Jane's are incredible (though Raggett is right when he points out that Perry, for all his merits, remains eminently punchable).

All four musicians were fully out there and the ideas that permate Jane's music are ever hypnotic, hallucinatory and ecstatic. I can't get enough of these boys, even after listening to this stuff consistently for ten years.

So, classic, classic, classic. If you can't dig it, give up.

Roger Fascist, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

For a second I thought Roger was talking about me.

Dan Perry, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I only heard "Ritual" but I thought it was quite boring and what was the big deal? Dud. People still listen to them?

DeRayMi, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

If "boring" is a cop-out then let's say: I didn't find it terribly engaging. (Big difference.) It's been close to a decade since I heard that album anyway.

DeRayMi, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I didn't find it terribly engaging either until I started listening to it from "Three Days" onward. It then became my favorite album for a period of time.

Dan Perry, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, I didn't like Ritual at first. It took about .6 of a nanosecond before I realised what an urgent, vital slice of music I had on the player. It was lucky I had some sense of vitality, else I would have missed the fact that this album clearly contains some of the most inspiring music written in the last two decades. And thank God I have a pulse, or the cosmic psychedelic visions proliferated throughout the album would have just washed straight over me.

Roger Fascist, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Dude, the first half of that album is a textbook example of a band trying too hard to appeal for mainstream succes while attempting to retain their identity. It's Jane's Lite, especially when compared to _Nothing's Shocking_ (or even _Kettle Whistle_, fer crissake).

Dan Perry, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Danny boy, you're wrong man. Ritual is their fucking peak. It's them firing on all cylinders, entering the stratosphere before exploding (or falling to pieces on the brown). Shocking is good, Kettle Whistle (esp. the lead track) is good, hell, any Jane's material is good, but Ritual is the one - it's their most intricate, experimental, accomplished work of art. Man, if fucking shimmers and glitters with so many facets I'm still trying to get my head around it.

D'you think it's bad timing or coincidence that the band disolved after Ritual?

Roger Fascist, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't know, Rog. I really like the songs on the first half of _Ritual..._, but I can't listen to them as sequenced on the album. In fact, when I play that album I NEVER start it before "Three Days". I agree that it's a fantastic album, but that's largely because the second half is so amazing that it completely obliterates the shortcomings in the first half. (Compare to _Nothing's Shocking_, which is uniformly great throughout but never reaches the actual peaks of the second half of _Ritual..._.)

Dan Perry, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

janes = classic. perry ferrel = dud.

dyson, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I hit submit too soon. As albums, I see _Nothing's Shocking_ as better eveon though my favorite Jane's songs are on the second half of _Ritual..._. As a listening experience, _Nothing's Shocking_ is better and _Kettle Whistle_ comes pretty damn close. As far as the group's disintegration after _Ritual..._, I think it was somewhat inevitable, because if I'd been in a group with Perry Farrell for that long I'd want to run screaming for the hills, too.

Dan Perry, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, I see where you're at with that, and I know that the Jane's fan party line is that Shocking is the one but I can't agree. For all that I love Shocking, for me, I hear a band yet to fully realise their potential, something they certainly achieved on their next album.

Another point is the production on Shocking which I find a little flat - I don't feel that Jerden and Champagne were able to get the best out of the musicians or the Jane's sound at this point, although having said that, I do dig the rawer edge and the more incendiary drum sound.

Whereas on Ritual, the guys at the controls were able to set them for the heart of the sun and that's where the music takes me. As for the first few tracks, I dunno man... from the lead-in narrative, I'm hooked and that buzzsaw Navarro riff. Jesus. Then there's that pop-bass on No One's.. Oh mama. The album is littered with winning creative decisions. Y'know, sometimes in fact, Obvious is my favourite track off Ritual though I'm not sure why. Do you get thet?

Out of curiosity, anyone know about the new Jane's material? From what I can gather of the websites out there, they are in the studio working with fucking Paul Oakenfold! Where the hell is Jerden when you need him?

Roger Fascist, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I know that the Jane's fan party linei s that Shocking is the one

Where I deviate from the fan party line is that I think _Nothing's Shocking_ and _Ritual De Lo Habitual_ are equal; _NS_ is more consistent, but _RdlH_ has better songs on it. If I wanted to listen to an entire album, I'd grab _NS_. If I wanted to play selected songs, I'd grab _RdlH_.

Dan Perry, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

In case you stumble across this any UK Jane's fans I just have to say that the Addiction will play the London Kentish Town Forum 19th August 2002, as a warm up to their show at the fucking shit Reading Festival.

OK, so it's not the Academy but it's not a bad compromise.

Better get on the blower to the ticket agencies pronto then...

Hello.

Roger Fascist, Tuesday, 6 August 2002 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

five months pass...
"one night i met a boy"

ron (ron), Tuesday, 14 January 2003 03:50 (seventeen years ago) link

i must say that it takes nuts to make a song as over-the-top as 'three days'

ron (ron), Tuesday, 14 January 2003 03:53 (seventeen years ago) link

"One night I met a boy"? How disappointed am I! I always thought all these years he was saying "One night I met a pony," which made me larf happily.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 14 January 2003 04:22 (seventeen years ago) link

forget i said anything, pony it is

ron (ron), Tuesday, 14 January 2003 04:50 (seventeen years ago) link

Who else has ever brought together the punks and the hippies so succesfully?

uh, Neil Young? The only thing Jane's brought together were fratboys and fratgirls.

Verdict - Dud. They lie too much for truthseekers and are too pretentious to create something communal. And the junk culture stuff I have no use for.

Exception: Jane Says. Momentarily, the dream is alive. Especially when Dave Navarro isn't around.

gabbneb, Tuesday, 14 January 2003 08:46 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought it was "one night I met a poor man..."? I found an excellent Jane's lyrics site once, but I can't remember where it was. Needless to say their lyrics were, well, either genius or gobbledegook or somewhere inbetween.

Classic. Shocking is only nearly classic, but Ritual is beyond classic.

Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 14 January 2003 08:58 (seventeen years ago) link

I always thort it was "one night I met a whore..."

Roger Fascist (Roger Fascist), Tuesday, 14 January 2003 09:39 (seventeen years ago) link

"One night I met a poet..." surely?

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 14 January 2003 09:47 (seventeen years ago) link

I like 'pony' best now, but only after the cigar/bees/lady bitz interface thread on ILE.

Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Tuesday, 14 January 2003 10:51 (seventeen years ago) link

two years pass...
Ritual stands up amazingly well, provided you skip "Been Caught Stealing." The bassline that opens "Three Days" is among the most killer of the era.

Ian John50n (orion), Monday, 10 October 2005 03:45 (fourteen years ago) link

I was recently surprised at how much parts of Yes's Fragile reminded me of them. IIt was South Side of the Sky in particular.

Cunga (Cunga), Monday, 10 October 2005 04:06 (fourteen years ago) link

I still think it's "pony."

provided you skip "Been Caught Stealing."

Are you mad? (Mind you, the song always sounded better live.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 10 October 2005 05:13 (fourteen years ago) link

I never posted to this! Great, for being fundamentally rooted in the classic hard rock tradition and actually doing something totally creative and modern with it in that era. I'm weird in that "Three Days" is my least favourite song on Ritual. It starts good but kinda drags.

I don't know much about Farrell as a person/ality. Why is he punchable?

Sundar (sundar), Monday, 10 October 2005 05:44 (fourteen years ago) link

Still haven't worked out my 'portable' mix yet, but I'm thinking it will be good.

Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Monday, 10 October 2005 06:58 (fourteen years ago) link

I played "Three Days" really loud the other week when i got my new CD player, it was FANTASTIC.

Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Monday, 10 October 2005 08:30 (fourteen years ago) link

one year passes...

Completely dud. Their brains are fried to the max. They look like shit. They're music is just plain bonkers like Zappa's: tries to be funny but fails miserably. I suspect they tried to do the sock thing but they couldn't find any baby socks...

And to think I'm reading the Brendan Mullen oral biography now. I still really don't understand why I even bothered to buy the book, even though I am not as hostile towards them as I once was. That said, PF seems to be such a dick. I also can't believe the "they are incredibly seminal, paved the way for the rest" bullshit line. I mean, maybe they were (in reality) but I refuse to believe it anyway.

stevienixed, Monday, 11 June 2007 07:11 (thirteen years ago) link

My little sister came over the other day to rip all my Jane's Addiction CDs. Her quip: "Yeah, I've really wanted to listen to Jane's Addiction lately, but couldn't bring myself to buy them." They belong to a different era, and stick out like a sore thumb in this one. But we listened to Nothings Shocking, and it still pushed my wig back with its bombastic excellence.

Kids who could never see eye to eye on anything - long hair in front vs. hair long in back, dead milkmen vs. led zeppelin, goth chicks and smiths fans, our u.s. equivalents of ravey davey and also student grant could all sing along

Jane's pretty much united the smoking section at my high school.

kingkongvsgodzilla, Monday, 11 June 2007 07:47 (thirteen years ago) link

So yeah all you Navarro fans should check out the Deconstruction album. Lot to love there.

calstars, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 22:44 (five days ago) link

morrisp completely OTM, choosing a bassline you love over disgust at introducing a 15 year old to heroin, having a 3-day smack and sexual bender with her and your girlfriend and then making a sculpture of it to transform it into art is not a defensible position. Musically, a great song, but I am not going to listen to this skeevy motherfucker any more. He always struck me as a creep and I thought oh maybe it's just my innate contempt for that kind of muddled semi-spiritual bullshit that masques as a cover for "do whatever the fuck I want". So yeah, I was right after all these years. Goodbye asshole.

assert (MatthewK), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 23:39 (five days ago) link

I think you might be the right audience for this, but can I tell you how much I love this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBUxxl5NnME

The Mandymoorian (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 23:44 (five days ago) link

So yeah all you Navarro fans should check out the Deconstruction album. Lot to love there.

I've probably said it before in this thread but in some ways that Deconstruction album holds up better than Jane's for me - obviously it lacks the big ticket tunes but yep Navarro is still in his sweet spot between rock pyrotechnics and post-punk moody textural stuff - and these days I find Eric Avery's lyrics more personally resonant (less "toxic"?) than Perry's golden god self-mythologising - and def. interesting project wrt this thread in the context of a partial critical response to Jane's immediately after the event

umsworth (emsworth), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 23:48 (five days ago) link

Were there ever any boundary-pushing bands that dared put a scantily clad dancing *dude* in a cage to be objectified?

Someone post that Shamen video with Jason Statham in it

shout-out to his family (DJP), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 03:25 (four days ago) link

just realised how wrecked my syntax was above, but the TL;DR is that the art doesn't justify Farrell's behaviour and I'm done with Jane's, which resolves the ambivalence I've always felt.

assert (MatthewK), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 05:15 (four days ago) link

Someone post that Shamen video with Jason Statham in it


how... how did i not know about this

scampo, foggy and clegg (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 06:12 (four days ago) link

I have to say, again and again, that this is stuff that is extremely personal for me, and a lot of it is about naming and reclaiming my own experiences of the time.

While a teenager, I absolutely had non-consensual, coercive sex that was 100% Rape. I also had consensual sex in which I was the agent and the intiator and it was 100% Not Rape, and the difference between the two experiences was not that I was 17 2/3 in one case and 18 and one day in the other.

The difference was consent, it was agency, it was whether I felt like I was in control of the experience, and that my desires and needs were being honoured.

The conversation has switched over the past few years, from "no sex is ever rape" to "all sex is rape". The latter position *ALSO* means that the desires and needs of the female (or on the "down" side of power) participants are STILL not being honoured, and are not likely to be.

When a group of people, mostly cis men, demonstrate that they do not understand what ISN'T rape, it makes me very wary that they don't have a very good understanding what IS rape.

Music often functions as a... theatre of desire. In many ways the music industry (and even moreso back in the 80s) is in the business of commodifying sex, desire, romance, longing, infatuation, and all of those other exciting emotions, and providing a place for people on the cusp of sexuality to experience and explore them. (ILM has a long history of demonstrating that it is intensely uncomfortable with female desire.) An industry that traffics in desire in this way, is entirely ripe for abuse. To combat that abuse, without simply declaring "desire" off limits (because we all know whose desire gets cracked down on first), one has to understand, beyond a 'letter of the law' approach, what is, and isn't abuse.

(The absolute epitomy of the dark side of this 'letter of the law' approach to consent versus abuse is on that other thread, about the Killers thing. "The actual girl was not raped; however deliberately convincing the only female crew member, for weeks, that her colleagues were all rapists, was just ~hazing~ - therefore no abuse has taken place." Please move beyond these letter of the law approaches. The letter of the law can be used to harm, discredit, diminish, the negative experiences of women, as easily as it can the positive.)

Now I'm gonna go have a little dance on the Shamen thread.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 07:44 (four days ago) link

The band that Jane's most resembled lyrically, at the time I loved them, was the Velvet Underground. That absolute refusal to take a moral position, writing completely non-judgemental songs that were "neither for nor against, just about".

And who you choose to take that moral non-positition towards, is far more important than the act of non-position. Farrell was pretty clear that he very much did have a moral position on cops, governments, leaders. But in the face of the Reagan/Bush years of Just Say No and the War On Drugs (which was actually a war on the poor, and specifically a war on African-Americans, because no one cared if Wall Street was a blizzard of cocaine) to refuse to take a moral position, to write songs that posited... sex workers are just people; drugs can be fun or spiritual or all kinds of things; shoplifting is exciting and fun - the directionality of who gets moral blame (cops) and who doesn't (sex workers, shoplifters) can be really powerful in a way that transcends the sleaziness of the writer.

I don't think I ever, even at the height of my fandom, thought Farrell was any kind of messiah or... (role model is the wrong word here) - he was, like Lou Reed, a fucked-up, damaged individual writing songs about fucked-up, damaged people - whose damage resembled the damage me and my friends had - in a way that didn't condemn us for our damage, but allowed some people who had been quite marginalised by the Reagan-Bush moral regime, to accept and address our damage.

I totally respect people who choose to nope out on him because (in the absence of Xiola's voice), they read his behaviour as not-OK. I was never under any illusions that he was any kind of ~nice person~ - he exuded fucked-up damage, so it is not a surprise that he was sleazy or creepy, any more than - it was disappointing, but also not a surprise to discover that Lou Reed was an abusive control freak. I just really hope that people ITT understand that I am not excusing Farrell's behaviour. But this music provided a lens through which people like me could examine our own damage.

I was never a junkie, but I was certainly an addict and an alcoholic, during periods of my life. It took therapy to help me understand, that as impressionable as I was, and as irresponsible as these artists might have been - I didn't become an addict because of Lou Reed or Sonic Boom or Perry Farrell. I was *drawn* to these artists and their addict art because there was already damage to me, the kind of damage that makes people think addiction is a solution.

Their first album, they covered a Stones song and they covered a Velvets song - and I think, at the time, I was very aware of the Velvets connection, and saw them through that lens.

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 09:07 (four days ago) link

thanks, Branwell, great posts. I think a lot about "acceptable transgressiveness" in art but also in "lifestyles" and the obvious tensions therein. There's something different about our moment of "progressiveness" in which the advances are today less in the direction of "freedom" than in other directions, of "do no harm" but also "respect others' freedoms". But those don't necessarily go together well. as ever this is not the thread for this but I don't know what is.

Joey Corona (Euler), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 09:16 (four days ago) link

it's not exactly that weird or suspicious that ppl are erring on the side of "that's pretty fucked" when we have almost nothing of xiola's side of things. partially because she's dead from the drug perry (and probably others) helped supply her from a young age

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 09:55 (four days ago) link

that said I would never judge anyone for finding value in whatever art they please. I still listen to brand new, and in some ways knowing what we know or could guess about his conscience actually makes their later work i daresay quite powerfully bleak

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 09:57 (four days ago) link

I'm not exactly rushing out to give them my $$$ though

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 09:59 (four days ago) link

oh lastly some of us have conclusions and attitudes that are informed by experience as well even if we don't all post about it, something to keep in mind when yer tempted to make sweeping pronouncements about those annoying cis boys :)

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 10:11 (four days ago) link

Not to mention that my understanding of this and other similarly sketchy situations was chiefly shaped by listening to the women I know who have experienced such things first-hand. I will also say (alongside Simon, and for the last time, I promise) that offering heroin to a 14 year-old who ended up dying from it before even reaching the end of her teens is a significant part of what makes this tale so disturbing.

pomenitul, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:44 (four days ago) link

Oh but she was such a free spirit. And he was so damaged, you see.

My daughter is 18.

assert (MatthewK), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:48 (four days ago) link

I had a long conversation with my Mum about the times described in this thread.

To this day, she hates my then-girlfriend because she introduced me to drugs and gay sex, and she thinks that ruined my life for decades. I have no way to express to her, that being introduced to drugs and gay sex genuinely saved my life, and without those experiences and those people, I would not have survived the 80s and I would not be here today.

People can read the same situation in many different ways, depending on their position and relation to it.

Is there anything left to be gained by continuing this, or are we just at “we disagree, leave it” here?

Branwell with an N, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 14:17 (four days ago) link

idk is it really ILX if we don't drag this out until a valued poster ragequits

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 14:27 (four days ago) link

(j/k I'm happy to drop it)

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 14:27 (four days ago) link

Is there anything left to be gained by continuing this, or are we just at “we disagree, leave it” here?

I think the latter, with a recommendation that anyone who hasn't read Pamela Des Barres' I'm With The Band find a copy.

(N.B. I'm working on a 30th anniversary piece about Jane's and Ritual, and this discussion has given me a lot to think about, particularly since I had no idea about the various folks' ages when the record came out — not only did I not know Xiola's age, I didn't know Perry was so much older than his bandmates; he's 61!)

but also fuck you (unperson), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 14:28 (four days ago) link

guys i know you all love a good thought exercise & beating a dead horse literally to death but this is straying far far into nagl

Fwiw, idk if this was referring to me but I had thought Branwell made a fair and interesting point and was thinking about how even hard legal lines don't necessarily make those questions clear-cut, morally, in terms of the point they raised. Not sure what it looked like to you. Introducing a young teenager to heroin is totally indefensible and horrifying obv and the whole story has been making me shudder over the last couple of days.

Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 14:38 (four days ago) link

Yeah, some kids mature faster than others, but it's pretty well established that drugs and alcohol adversely affect teenage brains which are still in development, and I'm sure that adding sex to the mix makes the situation even worse. Addicts sometimes talk about that part of their brain being frozen at the point where they first experienced the euphoria that drove them to addiction. It makes sense to me that 20-somethings would be able to cope with those intense feelings and maybe draw them out through addiction while teens would be more inclined to just chase those feelings into oblivion. In this case, the issue is not about Xiola's consent or whether or not she enjoyed those 3 days, it's about her being too young to process those feelings that Perry foisted on her. And the fact that he turned her tragedy into a commodity, no matter how artfully done, is just vile and disgusting.

BrianB, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 14:59 (four days ago) link

this thread's turn/thinking about lolla '91 and that summer/the whole thing has me feeling all kinds of fucked up
in case anyone wondered why i stopped being part of this conversation
fun fact -- 8/5/91 was when i saw that show i posted above!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 15:02 (four days ago) link

Thanks for posting it upthread LL. I was watching it and soaking in the feeling of being 18-19 again.

Yo, Semites! (PBKR), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 15:13 (four days ago) link

unfortunately, i was soaking in the feeling of being 15 again too and it was very bad

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 15:38 (four days ago) link

(The absolute epitomy of the dark side of this 'letter of the law' approach to consent versus abuse is on that other thread, about the Killers thing. "The actual girl was not raped; however deliberately convincing the only female crew member, for weeks, that her colleagues were all rapists, was just ~hazing~ - therefore no abuse has taken place." Please move beyond these letter of the law approaches. The letter of the law can be used to harm, discredit, diminish, the negative experiences of women, as easily as it can the positive.

The band’s statement doesn’t say “therefore no abuse has taken place” — it says the guy in question was fired in 2013 for other “unacceptable” behavior, including his “treatment of others on the tour” and “a series of sexist remarks and rude comments, (which) caused the female crew member on the audio team great distress.” It’s also clear they took the new allegation very seriously; beyond getting to the bottom of it, I’m not sure what more they can do to the guy as a matter of law.

Rob, give a listen to Iggy Stooge (morrisp), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 16:04 (four days ago) link

unfortunately, i was soaking in the feeling of being 15 again too and it was very bad

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, August 5, 2020 11:38 AM (fifty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

:( sorry

Mom jokes are his way of showing affection (to your mom) (PBKR), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 16:36 (four days ago) link

so you guys ready to move on to Porno for Pyros or what

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtjRgEQFFio

The Mandymoorian (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 16:46 (four days ago) link

Massive apologies for trying to bring this thread back to the topic of Jane's Addiction, but I've read a few pieces in the last day and one thing that keeps coming up is Perry's age relative to all the players in the band/scene.

When the band formed in 1985, Dave & Stephen were 18, Eric was 20, Perry was 26.

By the time they were in contract negotiation for songwriting credits for Nothing's Shocking, Perry was 29, Dave & Stephen were 21, Eric was 23.

In case you don't know the story, Eric left the band for 2 days because Perry's lawyer (the only member to bring one to the meeting with the label) demanded 62.5% of all songwriting credit, with the other band members getting 12.5% each. Dave Jerden (producer of Nothing's Shocking) eventually talked Avery into-rejoining the band after a few days, but it's pretty clear that the band (esp. Avery) was never the same after this.

So this recurring theme of Perry's age gap not just with his bandmates but his romantic partners (XB +9.5 years, CN +5.5 years, CC +9 years, MD +8 years, current wife ELF +16 years)... seems rather significant.

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 16:51 (four days ago) link

About Porno for Pyros and those songwriting credits, I was just reading this section in Whores:

MARTYN LE NOBLE: I cowrote pretty much all of the stuff, including "Pets" but never got proper credit. Perry had a very interesting structure. We went into the studio and recorded the whole record. Then Eric Greenspan, the attorney, came in and said, "We'll structure it like this. I suggest you get your own attorney." After Eric Greenspan left, Perry said, "When Dave and Eric got their own attorney, that's when I broke up Jane's Addiction." He was like, "You can get your own attorney, but if you do, this band will probably not exist."

Also, they were all smoking lots of crack at the time. Total crack record.

peace, man, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 16:58 (four days ago) link

Huh, so that's Buck Angel in the "Cursed Female" video?

Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 17:00 (four days ago) link

BuckAngel Entertainment
7 years ago
That is the point! It is me before I started taking testosterone. ENJOY!

The Mandymoorian (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 17:05 (four days ago) link

well I sure have learned a lot about perry farrell over the last few days

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 17:07 (four days ago) link

Same, heh.

pomenitul, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 17:11 (four days ago) link

My takeaway from all of this is basically that Perry is the John Phillips of that scene. I still listen to both Jane's and the Mamas & the Papas, but I completely accept that both were driven by abusive drug-addled egomaniacs.

TALKIN BOUT THE PAYGS
THE PAYOOOOOGS

The Mandymoorian (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 17:37 (four days ago) link

PA-PA-PA-PA-PAYOG

singular wolf erotica producer (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 17:38 (four days ago) link

Removed from, like, the ominpresence of seeing it a billion times as a kid, just rewatched "Been Caught Stealing" video with adult eyes and, man, is it brilliant

The Mandymoorian (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 17:43 (four days ago) link

Perry is totally the older dude hanging out with high school kids and the kids think he's cool until they grow up and remember... "Who was that creepy dude that was always around? Why was he hanging out with us? Weird."

Loved JA but Perry always struck me as skeezy. "Ain't no wrong now, ain't no right. Only pleasure and pain." Okay, 90's Jim Morrison.

Cow_Art, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 18:23 (four days ago) link

Recently unearthed pic of Stephen Perkins & Perry Farrell cruising for burgers.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c5c8728a9fcfa709de8e06cc7b316b66

"...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 18:29 (four days ago) link

goddamn peeyogs

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 18:45 (four days ago) link

PA-PA-PA-PA-PAYOG

― singular wolf erotica producer (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, August 5, 2020 10:38 AM (one hour ago)

https://i.imgur.com/2B7ROSB.jpg

Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 19:33 (four days ago) link

don't really know how to weigh in on the support vs. do not support problematic artists thing

and I also realized that me "supporting" Jane's Addiction is probably listening to Nothing's Shocking like 4 more times on streaming before I die and got depressed

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 19:57 (four days ago) link

tbh correctly or not I don't really consider spotify streams as "material support" for artists

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 20:03 (four days ago) link

I'd be the most detestable hypocrite of all on this board if I didn't think listening to JA and enjoying their music will never not be fine (and at least Perry Farrell is no Jon Nödtveidt), but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be real-life consequences for ethically bankrupt behaviour. And while I myself was too young to know what the band seemingly stood for in its heyday, this revive has impelled some quality posts from all quarters and it does personally get me thinking about the mixture of progressive and toxic alt-rock attitudes that I grew up with in the 90s and early 00s.

pomenitul, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 20:04 (four days ago) link

I on the other hand have never had a bad or wrong opinion or attitude but I still found it interesting!

the quar on drugs (Simon H.), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 21:28 (four days ago) link

imagine hearing it in a laser tag place surrounded by the smell of abundant teenage sweat, cigarettes, and alcohol

On a lighter note -- was this the place in Parma?? Or did northeast Ohio have more laser tag arenas with alternative teen dance nights than I was aware of? I have very fond memories of that place; met some great friends there who I'm still occasionally in touch with.

I'm looking forward to checking out that video from Blossom you posted; I was at that show too but sadly have no real memory of JA's performance. I do remember them at Peabody's DownUnder if you know that club shortly after NS came out, was a much bigger fan at that point. Still have the shirt from that show in my attic in pretty great condition 'cause I was never comfortable wearing it anywhere.

early rejecter, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 21:44 (four days ago) link

Omg lol do I know you?? My webmail works, I’ll get the message! Akron.

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 23:04 (four days ago) link

Ha! Never expected to run into a fellow Dancin’ alum here! (That’s what it was called, right? I can’t find any evidence of its existence online.) Based on your timeline I think our age difference makes it unlikely we know each other (by ’89-’90 I’d graduated to Nine of Clubs) but our paths probably crossed. I’ll send you a message later!

early rejecter, Thursday, 6 August 2020 00:23 (three days ago) link

Dancin’ on the planet! But we called it Photon and everyone fronted like they weren’t going but they always showed up. I used to prank the payphone. And there was a dedicated indoor smoking room. A good lol we will have!

weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Thursday, 6 August 2020 00:40 (three days ago) link


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