for the piano: Schubert vs. Mozart vs. Chopin

low placement of schubert incomprehensible to me

is he on spotify? could use a good sunday morning mozart sesh

uchida tbrr

she is truly one of the greatest pianists of all time imo

but badura-skoda on mozart is something that everybody who loves mozart should really hear because he really seems bent on making the voice of the composer audible. just so crisp

i love the uchida schubert box

Schubert, and only Schubert, on R3 for the next few days...

On the classical thread I was going bonkers recently over Andsnes' recording of the Sonata D958.

do you rate andsnes w/ liszt?

Trying to play this now and realizing I never will get it even remotely close to performance tempo. It's depressing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t1eE8sZKIo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsoUIBcl7iw imo

Why come piano gotta be so hard!

do you rate andsnes w/ liszt?

― The term “hipster racism” from Carmen Van Kerckhove at Racialicious (nakhchivan)

I like his Liszt recital disc pretty well, and his Grieg, but his Schubert's on another level entirely (at least D958 and D959 which are the ones I have).

good recording of Schubert's impromptus?

I've tried about 12 different cycles and I just keep coming back to Brendel (his analog one from the 70s, available in a 2fer with the Moments Musicaux etc, not his digital one). It has the most subtly hypnotic effect. I don't like for the performer to do too much to these pieces. They should just 'come down from the sky and stand there'.

oh sweet thanks. I listened to some of Krystian Zimerman play on youtube, but I don't know Schubert from Flaubert

Zimerman is ok but not great (I do love him in Liszt and Debussy). an easily available alt choice imo would be Radu Lupu.

I stan for Lupu that dude is great plus it's fun to say his name

It really is!!!

I've sung it before to myself as well: ra-DOOO, Lu-POOO, ra-DOO lu-POO ra-DOO...

this Chopin fellow was quite good at his job I daresay

http://navonarecords.com/catalog/nv6123/

chopin barcarolle is my favorite solo piano piece these days. wish I could play it..

Neither Mozart nor Chopin ever wrote anything as transcendent as Schubert's last three piano sonatas.

makes a killer dip too

That's quite a statement. What do they transcend?

To begin with, the piano sonata as a classical genre unto itself. In terms of length, breadth and sheer expressivity. Krystian Zimerman's recent recordings of the final two (D 959 & D 960) showcase this quite well.

Sviatoslav Richter's readings of the D 960 are outliers, but I couldn't do without them. For example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lncNcNtGkJY

So, is structure the primary way you are arguing that they are transcendent?

The melodic/harmonic material as well, especially in the D 960, though you could argue that it also falls under the umbrella of 'structure'.

I just wonder if melodic/harmonic means we are talking about Schubert's musicality (as being transcendent) or if we are again talking about formal matters.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction between form and musicality in music.

I.e. it's all form to me.

"Musicality" for me would be the distinction between something that manages some kind of expressive accomplishment in its use of form rather than merely managing something that is of interest for its formal aspects.

I get what you're saying. For me, a form is 'musical' (in the meliorative sense) if it is formally interesting, which always implies expressivity, including when the stated goal is inexpressivity. Said form can be simple or complex, and I don't think of it as being reducible to 'dead notes on a page'. Rather, the interaction between score and performance (in most classical music anyway) brings about a specific form that is the music itself, which can then be broken down into subcategories (treatment of melody, harmony, rhythm, etc.), so I suppose that's a broader understanding of what we usually mean when we say 'form' or 'structure'. But I'm not a musician so my conception of these things is no doubt rather idiosyncratic.

It seems to me that the view of music you are describing would lead one to think that a Mozart opera overture is only as interesting as one of a lesser composer as long as there are the same number of things that are of formal interest in the latter, i.e., that there is no consideration of the magic in music that, yes, works within a formal design but cannot be reduced to it.

Then you misunderstand my point, which is precisely that form is not a mere architectural plan. It is alive, and it is unpredictable, and it is context-dependent. I get the sense that we agree but are approaching the concept of form from two divergent angles.

If it's context-dependent, then I'm curious what those contexts are that make these sonatas transcendent in ways that Mozart and Chopin are not.

Every musical performance is a singular event that creates a context of its own. Such as Sviatoslav Richter's above. Pollini's readings of Schubert's late sonatas, while incredible in their own right, don't emphasize their 'transcendent' aspects nearly as much.

By the way, I love Chopin (Mozart, not so much, aside from his minor key works, all too rare in his oeuvre).

I thought we were talking about the compositions!

I mentioned above that I think of form (in this context, at least) as stemming from the encounter between score and performance.

OK, I'm just referring back to your original statement, which was about what these three composers wrote.

The music was written to be played, no? Neither composer was a conceptual artist. Anyway, I've said my (aesthetic) piece. YMMV, etc.

I get where pomenitul is coming from because listening to those Schubert sonatas is one of those "this somehow is more than music" feelings - like he's wrangling something bigger than he is, but managing to stay in command of his instruments in so doing. but Chopin's waltzes practically define "transcendence" - from simple, recognizable-to-his-friends folk themes, he sculpts music that's both enduring in its form & graspable by people who know nothing of waltzing - some of the most beautiful music ever written, and also just some dances - this for me is transcendence itself, in part because you can transcend or stay earthbound as you see fit

I probably haven't listened to the waltzes enough thinking they weren't as serious as some of his other pieces but I remember liking them a lot and I have a nice old LP of them played by Ingrid Haebler so that problem is easily rectified!

chopin is great but i confess i haven't heard any of his piano work

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJXYqAim3ks

I personally favor Schubert over Chopin and Mozart by quite a lot; I think I favor him over Beethoven at this point, even. He’s probably my favorite 19c composer right now.

His last three sonatas are stupendous (and the D956 Quintet, my god) but I hope it doesn’t lead to people undervaluing the earlier ones... I think D894 is my favorite of all.

I like what JCLC wrote about the waltzes there. ‘The art that conceals art’

Schubert's String Quartet no. 14 >>Chopin's Nocturnes>>Mozart's Piano Concertos. They are all rather good though.

Mozart PCs are amazing - my favorite area of his. I wish my current way of living was more conducive to opera listening though. I get the sense that’s the meatiest bit of him.

tbombing with fiyah like osaka 1945

just made me laugh out loud, god this place is poorer since you retired

The adagio of K. 332 is something I can listen to over and over.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXtjkNpTPy8