Music Criticism in Video Form

'80s metal wasn't damaging to anyone except the townies who didn't like Iron Maiden or w/e, i mean i think meme culture is a small part of a much larger, wider issue but i think it's kind of damaging and stupid more than it is ever actually funny.

I think Shakey's talk about old 90s censorship battles is relevant, not because the Moral Majority or other right-wing threats to speech have withered and died (would that it were so simple) but because at least the gamergate side of the alt-right does seem to understand all disagreements about content solely in terms of "censorship" from presumed prudes and moralizers, because (as I think I've gropingly hypothesized on the gamer racism thread) that's their reference point for all politics, period. Nerds of various stripes, but maybe especially comics and gamernerds, have been convincing themselves since the 16-bit era that, as a class, they are the freethinking and righteous battlers against bible-thumpers who want to take the blood out of Mortal Kombat.

who the fuck is distal

Just snagged my Last Jedi tickets

— ol' gulag'd bastard (@DistalDub) October 10, 2017

I don't think it does 'progressives' (argh) any good to target Fantano and his audience of what, tens of millions, as the enemy.

― Milton Parker, Tuesday, October 10, 2017 5:39 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

a lot of what you're describing is true but this assumes that as an entity he's someone who *can be* engaged with. I agree that not attempting to comprehend the nuances of the memes ultimately damaged the article's credibility in a way that provided openings for people "defending" "fantano" but it's still being assumed he's, like, a critic w/ a rational approach to "the conversation" & not a sentient meme whose "politics" only extends as far as the boundaries allowed by 4chan.

i've lost touch with nearly all the subgenius people i knew...the ones i know are, like me, now middle-aged cranks

SotS was "founded" by approaching-middle-aged cranks like Ivan Stang, and early supporters included successful ad executives and media creatives. It was never nihilistic, just a middle finger to normalcy from the generation just ahead of mine. Meme culture from a generation just behind mine attempts similar things, just with less conventional literacy and a repulsive tolerance of racism, at least at its Xchan fonts. I'm not sure my generation really offered much in the way of cogent satirical negation, we were the ones who accepted the commercialization of punk and first endured Mountain Dew xtreme ads. Can we call Flying Spaghetti Monster ours? Perhaps.

As for Fader v. Fantano, it does stink of resentment at someone who unlike most media critics has turned what he loves into a livable salary. As for his deleted channel, I've never seen it, but satire does have a history of being misinterpreted. I don't share much in musical taste with Fantano, and am likely to disagree on the rare occasion he chooses to review an album I enjoy. But I can see how his enthusiasm could be infectious and appealing for others, for audiences that print criticism doesn't reach.

so what do you all say about the people who are doxxing and harassing those they don't like? feel like that behavior goes way beyond any heavy metal parking lot antics

sure it does, but I don't see anything inherently right-wing abt it

xp great post Milton

I'll readily admit to not being an expert on meme culture but given everything else in the Fader piece (some of which I was already aware of), I'm in no mind to give Fantano the benefit of the doubt about any of this. Like the absolute most generous interpretation I can think of is that he's incredibly naïve politically and is purely interested in appealing to two different crowds at once which a) would still be awful and b) would require him to display some degree contrition or (as D-40 says) willingness to engage after being called out, which he has not done, so fuck him.

What sort of engagement are you thinking of? I feel like having someone who obviously has a deep interest in black and popular culture and is nominally leftist and liberal be influential in meme world could be a good thing. I find his taste and opinions boring but he's not unconvincing in that defense video. Maybe memes are not in themselves regressive?

I know lots of "I don't know about this meme world" is going on, and fair enough, but please can we underline the difference between memes in general and 4chan shitposting memes in particular. This conversation is meaningless without this distinction.

(xpost) I guess it would mean entering into a discussion of some sort with his critics in a way that isn't so dismissive/defensive? I mean I know he's on twitter and apparently comes across more left-leaning on there but that seems like a separate thing from the persona/brand presented in the videos, which are primarily what he's known for and makes a living from. I think finding effective ways of engaging with and challenging toxic ideas is a wider and more general problem though.

Ehh I won't link to it but there's a 10-minute MDE youtube clip (which was linked to in an Atlantic article about World Peace) where Sam Hyde does a local stand-up routine full of stupid liberal-baiting and ethnic stereotypes. He's then followed by a woman comic, whom Sam proceeds to heckle, goading her into tapping him in the face with the mic and then grabbing her by the wrist, intimidating her to the point where she's screaming at him to leave. She manages to regain her composure enough to try to begin her set, but by this time, Sam has turned the entire room against her so they roar at her every time she tries to tell a joke, and she ends up walking off the stage. The whole thing is a sickening display of victimization for its own sake, and the fact that Sam displays it proudly on his Youtube channel only adds another lunatic dimension to the ordeal

And wouldnt you know it? The first chummy comment when you scroll down is theneedledrop, saying: "Looks like she got #triggered, Sammy boy"

There was a point where I'd been willing to take Fantano's rebuttal at face value, but that point has past. NV is right: dude's lying, or at least misrepresenting a whole bunch. Fuck him forever.

(& I'm not totally blameless here either: I've been known to be grimly fascinated with a lot of aspects of WP, but miss me with that real-life toxic harrassment shit)

(xposts) Sorry yeah that's a good point Camaraderie.

won't somebody please think of the memes

'80s metal wasn't damaging to anyone except the townies who didn't like Iron Maiden or w/e, i mean i think meme culture is a small part of a much larger, wider issue but i think it's kind of damaging and stupid more than it is ever actually funny.

― nomar, Tuesday, October 10, 2017 6:23 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Let's not forget One in a Million or Sebastian Bach's Aids Kills Fags Dead shirt, metal culture was (and often is extremely toxic, racist and misogynistic - and still is, check the near daily attacks on Kim Kelly) and I grew up on that shit. Also metal was hugely pervasive.

won't somebody please think of the memes

― sick, fucking funny, and well tasty (katherine), Wednesday, October 11, 2017 12:55 PM (twenty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, just to be clear, I wanted it to be clarified because of posts like this

What sort of engagement are you thinking of? I feel like having someone who obviously has a deep interest in black and popular culture and is nominally leftist and liberal be influential in meme world could be a good thing. I find his taste and opinions boring but he's not unconvincing in that defense video. Maybe memes are not in themselves regressive?

― gospodin simmel, Wednesday, October 11, 2017 11:22 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

which imply that there is some sort of universal "meme world" which holds the key to communicating with young adults in all their diversity, rather than a smaller 4chan shitposter world, which is what we're unfortunately dealing with here.

fwiw i took katherine's post to be a sendup of gospodin simmel's take, and a good one.

Let's not forget One in a Million or Sebastian Bach's Aids Kills Fags Dead shirt, metal culture was (and often is extremely toxic, racist and misogynistic - and still is, check the near daily attacks on Kim Kelly) and I grew up on that shit. Also metal was hugely pervasive.

Far too many people still use the word 'fag'. Even in the UK and that seems to come from hanging out online as it's not something that I heard in the UK in the 80s or 90s.

It used to be the racists, misogynists and homophobes tended to be fans of more mainstream bands like the ones mentioned above but the ones that harass K1m are those from the more underground death metal dot org (a tiny site with a couple of right wing racist, misogynist arseholes running it and a few hundred users max) who were involved in 'gamergate' and have been trying to start 'metalgate' since.

These guys(of course they are guys) really are pretty much hated by everyone though and many feel the best way to counter them is to starve them of exhaustion. If you do make the mistake of going to their site you will feel pretty disgusted for doing so. Fuck them. They've gone after a few of my friends and they are the scum of the earth.

M@tt it must be worse for you that two of the things you love attract these neanderthals

without a doubt no group on the whole is homophobic than old school east coast street/lyrical rappers, the way they talk in DJ Vlad interviews is terrible

ok, three things..

xxxp Yeah ok, I agree with that. The toxicity and (apparent?) influence of the shitlord subgenre is making me forget the mundane memes I actually encounter a lot more of. Also agree that Fantano's defensive attitude isn't helpful. As far as engaging the batshit I find the ContraPoints yt channel really refreshing.

I believe Fantano is sincere that he is not alt-right and sincere about all of his rebuttals in the vid. At the same time, and what was not addressed in his video response, is that he is anti "SJW" and anti "tumblr feminist" which is a distinction I think is being lost here. Plenty of audience overlap, but I think he's definitely the typical online persona in that sense where he is extreme berniebro/4chan shitposter/reddit hivemind all at once. The reason he mingles with anyone alt-right is because he probably wants to talk to them about how SJWs are ruining culture, as far as I can tell.

He should have found a better way to critique SJW culture then. The left benefits from internal debate and discussion but not when one side makes common cause with the far right.

The broader point here is that you don't have to be aligned with the political right to be misogynist or racist.

an even broader point that there is nothing inherently racist about right wing ideology

the alt right *is* explicitly racist

xp lol ok

dunno why D1st@l comes up on here but I talk with him irl-ish (internet but I know him for non-internet reasons) & he's def alt-right, bringing up Frankfurt School to "refute" that progressives won't harm his interests, etc. didn't realize anyone else would care what he thinks though! lol twitter I guess, I don't use it much so I don't know if he has a rep there or whatever

We're not talking about self-described classical liberals opining on tax policy here

won't somebody think of the inclusive fascists?

I like the "he's not a bigot, he just hates people who hate bigots" distinction

sup

http://www.youtube.com/user/Styxhexenhammer666

This channel is not available in your country.

What's his deal? I see him in a thumbnail now and then and wonder why he doesn't have a shirt on.

dunno why D1st@l comes up on here but I talk with him irl-ish (internet but I know him for non-internet reasons) & he's def alt-right, bringing up Frankfurt School to "refute" that progressives won't harm his interests, etc. didn't realize anyone else would care what he thinks though! lol twitter I guess, I don't use it much so I don't know if he has a rep there or whatever

― droit au butt (Euler), Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:08 AM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

There was a dust-up in my little world of electronic music recently because people discovered his alt-right Youtube channel. Boiler Room put him on blast. Not that he's a huge name or anything, but he's trying to work in a scene where progressive values are very important, and his music heavily references subgenres that come out of black and queer culture, etc.

xp chafes

he's got a Patreon, he can afford talc

yeah if you make fighting "SJWs" (aka people opposed to racism, sexism and structural inequity) your project I am not too worried about any subtleties lost by lumping you in with alt-right culture warriors. NV otm.

this is certainly not the right thread for such discussion (I seem to recall the creepy liberalism thread filled with posts on this matter) but perhaps "SJWs" cannot be exclusively defined as people opposed to racism, sexism and structural inequity

Think "SJW" can be safely defined as "word used exclusively by assholes"

^^^

yes

the brackets indicate as much

and yet you seem to be implying it has a valid use

that was not my intent though

anyway, I've very little interest in discussing politics and am already sorry I engaged so much with this, no offense intended

yeah if you make fighting "SJWs" (aka people opposed to racism, sexism and structural inequity) your project I am not too worried about any subtleties lost by lumping you in with alt-right culture warriors. NV otm.

― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, October 11, 2017 10:39 AM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

SJW is definitely a dismissive term used by assholes. But yeah, way too much overlap with the alt-right culture warriors. Anybody with a legitimate argument is not using the term SJW.