early-90s alt-rock vs. late-90s alt rock

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this may just be due to age bias on my part but late-90s alt-rock >>>>>>>>>>>> early-90s alt-rock

― The Reverend

Poll Results

OptionVotes
early-90s alt rock (and I am 30 years old+) 53
early-90s alt rock (younger than 30) 35
late-90s alt rock (younger than 30) 8
late-90s alt rock (30 years old+) 4


iatee, Monday, 17 May 2010 20:54 (eleven years ago) link

voted "late-90s alt rock (younger than 30)"

no doubt, this is due in no small part to "age bias" for me, but whatever

ksh, Monday, 17 May 2010 20:55 (eleven years ago) link

middle school was awesome (sometimes)

The Reverend, Monday, 17 May 2010 20:57 (eleven years ago) link

some of the music was, at least

ksh, Monday, 17 May 2010 20:58 (eleven years ago) link

can we see some kinda aggregate each of these mini-eras? (like early 90s = Nirvana/Smashing Pumpkins/Pavement, late 90s = uh I'm not sure exactly)
cuz like a bunch of early 90s alt rock bands were still making music into the late 90s

huggable snuggable teddy bear (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 May 2010 20:58 (eleven years ago) link

like where do Beck or Stereolab fit into this continuum

huggable snuggable teddy bear (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 May 2010 20:58 (eleven years ago) link

early

taylory dayne (goole), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:00 (eleven years ago) link

music made before 1995 vs. music made after 1995? I guess that makes odelay late-90s which doesn't seem to make much sense.

stereolab isn't alt-rock.

iatee, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:01 (eleven years ago) link

so we're taking into account when a band started, not necessarily when their best music was released? that seems weird

lol what would you call Stereolab

huggable snuggable teddy bear (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:02 (eleven years ago) link

stereolab is stereolab

iatee, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:02 (eleven years ago) link

ok call them late then, what the fuck who cares

taylory dayne (goole), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:03 (eleven years ago) link

I mean these terms are all silly but 'alt-rock' to me sorta suggests mainstream/radio friendly

iatee, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:05 (eleven years ago) link

Stereolab was certainly radio friendly by 1997, when their music was being used in Volkswagen ads

Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:05 (eleven years ago) link

not exactly sure what constitutes alt-rock (guessing we mean it was played on radio/mtv) here but still 99% sure i must vote early-90s alt rock (younger than 30)

xp

sonderangerbot, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:06 (eleven years ago) link

(at least when talking about 90s/00s music - think the 'alternative rock' section at borders or something) xp

iatee, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:07 (eleven years ago) link

ooh, just remembered a data point likely against early 90s alt-rock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcRtlj8KXT4

Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:08 (eleven years ago) link

'alt-rock' to me sorta suggests mainstream

uh

honestly I kinda feel challopsy and wanna vote mid-90s cuz by then a lot of 80s-era dreck had been cleared away, embarassing rap-rock hybrid were losing their hip-ness quotient, most of the post-grunge wave of American and British indie were both coming into their own and still operating with fairly big budgets, etc. Most of my favorite stuff from that era of alt-rock (or whatever you wanna call it) came out around '94-'97 - Spiritualized, Pavement, Beck, Stereolab, JSBX, probably a bunch of others.

xp

huggable snuggable teddy bear (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:09 (eleven years ago) link

(at least when talking about 90s/00s music - think the 'alternative rock' section at borders or something) xp

did you go to Borders and ask them where the Stereolab section was

huggable snuggable teddy bear (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:10 (eleven years ago) link

"Radio-friendly" is a vague term. Just because "Parsec" appeared on TV commercials as a marker of stylishness doesn't mean commercial radio was going to touch a drum-n-bass song in 5/4 sung in French.

jaymc, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:11 (eleven years ago) link

"Miss Modular" was played to death on Boston's 3 modern rock stations.

Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:12 (eleven years ago) link

beck and jsbx was the beginning of the end

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:12 (eleven years ago) link

stereolab are basically alt-rock/indie

their best shit was 93-7 so idk where they fit rly

Played to death? Wow.

jaymc, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:13 (eleven years ago) link

Also three modern rock stations?

jaymc, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:13 (eleven years ago) link

yeah, WFNX, WBCN and WAAF (there were also selected shows on WZBC, WHRB and WERS)

of course now WFNX and WAAF are gone (RIP)

Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:15 (eleven years ago) link

(WFNX also played tons and tons of Portishead and Spiritualized)

Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:16 (eleven years ago) link

whoa @ Material Issue. I remember when all my older friends were getting their driver's licenses Intn'l Pop Overthrow was pretty much a cassette deck staple

you hippies can keep yr gay socialist jesus (will), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:16 (eleven years ago) link

I am under 30 and all music is garbage

Police Cool. (crüt), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:22 (eleven years ago) link

I am trying to answer this but my answer keeps coming back to "mid 90s"

p much exactly on the age boundary too, so that is probably why ;_;

xylyl syzygy (a passing spacecadet), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:23 (eleven years ago) link

late-90s alt rock (younger than 30)

J0rdan S., Monday, 17 May 2010 21:23 (eleven years ago) link

I am an old guy, and I prefer the late 90s. Note that I am counting UK indie, if this was all about American alt.rock, the first half of the 90s would be better.

Tied Up In Geir (Geir Hongro), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:26 (eleven years ago) link

yeah, WFNX, WBCN and WAAF (there were also selected shows on WZBC, WHRB and WERS)

of course now WFNX and WAAF are gone (RIP)

― Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, May 17, 2010 4:15 PM

WAAF isn't gone?

ksh, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:27 (eleven years ago) link

honestly I kinda feel challopsy and wanna vote mid-90s cuz by then a lot of 80s-era dreck had been cleared away, embarassing rap-rock hybrid were losing their hip-ness quotient

http://everydaymusic.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/10-linkin-park-hybrid-theory.jpg

Mordy, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:28 (eleven years ago) link

It isn't? I thought they radically changed their format?

Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:28 (eleven years ago) link

WBCN is "gone" as a rock station, iirc, but not WFNX & WAAF, which I've been listening to off & on forever

ksh, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:29 (eleven years ago) link

right?

ksh, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:29 (eleven years ago) link

http://www.waaf.com/
http://wfnx.com/

ksh, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:29 (eleven years ago) link

Linkin Park never had any hipness quotient FYI

huggable snuggable teddy bear (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:30 (eleven years ago) link

lol I guess they didn't

I guess when the dude I knew of via a friend of a friend said he got fired because their format changed, he was actually lying completely through his ass

Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:30 (eleven years ago) link

early-90s alt rock (younger than 30)

although i like lots of stuff from both options and tbh the '97-'99 stuff I hate most is probably completely different from what a lot of people here hate on

couldn't think of anything to write instead of 'steendriver' (some dude), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:30 (eleven years ago) link

also lol apparently I confused WBCN and WFNX

the moral of the story is that I never listen to anything besides 94.5 and KISS 108 these days

Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:31 (eleven years ago) link

picked second half btw, under 30, loved Californication a lot

Mordy, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:31 (eleven years ago) link

embarassing rap-rock hybrids are still with us TODAY (thx Weezy) - what's changed is that the blending of rap and rock in and of itself is no longer seen as a cutting edge or interesting thing. this was already becoming clear by the mid-90s, where rap-rock hybrids were at once all over the place and also totally boring.

xp

huggable snuggable teddy bear (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:31 (eleven years ago) link

lol I guess they didn't

I guess when the dude I knew of via a friend of a friend said he got fired because their format changed, he was actually lying completely through his ass

― Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, May 17, 2010 4:30 PM (14 seconds ago)

pretty sure it was just WBCN that changed radically, b/c AAF has a bunch of the same ppl they've had since I was in 7th grade, and WFNX still plays alt rock

ksh, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:31 (eleven years ago) link

wanna reiterate:

the moral of the story is that I never listen to anything besides 94.5 and KISS 108 these days

Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:32 (eleven years ago) link

"early-90s alt rock (and I am 30 years old+)," but pop and R&B were more interesting than either early or late nineties alt rock. Mid nineties R&B not so much.

Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:32 (eleven years ago) link

I am going to go with early 90s here because I like early smashing pumpkins; other than that any music that was popularly referred to as "alternative rock" in the 90s is not rly my thing. but I did not really listen to rock radio at all during the 90s so I am probably an unusual case.

Police Cool. (crüt), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:33 (eleven years ago) link

the moral of the story is that I never listen to anything besides 94.5 and KISS 108 these days

― Have a slice of wine! (HI DERE)

i still listen to WAAF sometimes, but the presets in my car are now set to 94.5, KISS 108, WBUR, and FNX. really, i try to listen to WAAF as little as possible. used to be my favorite station back from, like, 1999-2003/4

ksh, Monday, 17 May 2010 21:33 (eleven years ago) link

embarassing rap-rock hybrids are still with us TODAY (thx Weezy) - what's changed is that the blending of rap and rock in and of itself is no longer seen as a cutting edge or interesting thing. this was already becoming clear by the mid-90s, where rap-rock hybrids were at once all over the place and also totally boring.

huggable snuggable teddy bear (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 17 May 2010 21:34 (eleven years ago) link

we call that "modernism"

Police Cool. (crüt), Monday, 17 May 2010 22:28 (eleven years ago) link

postmodernism is characterized by an incredulity towards Animal Collective

― ksh, Monday, May 17, 2010 10:17 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^^ this is the sort of postmodernism I can get behind

― Police Cool. (crüt), Monday, May 17, 2010 6:23 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

me too, tbh

Thirded. Now we have a majority. So moved.

Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 17 May 2010 22:46 (eleven years ago) link

I'm going by the kind of stuff they played on 120 Minutes:

1990

Cocteau Twins- Heaven or Las Vegas
Sonic Youth- Goo
Ride- Nowhere
Pixies- Bossanova
Jane's Addiction- Ritual De Lo Habitual
Robyn Hitchcock- Eye
House of Love
The Las
TMBG- Flood
Happy Mondays- Pills, Thrills & Bellyaches
Sinead O'Connor- I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got
The Breeders- Pod
Peter Murphy- Deep
Social Distortion- S/T
Alice in Chains- Facelift
.....

President Keyes, Monday, 17 May 2010 22:46 (eleven years ago) link

My favorite stuff is generally between 1993 and 1996. Earlier than that most of the stuff sounds pretty dated now. Post OK Computer era stuff just doesn't have quite as many of my favorites.

Evan, Monday, 17 May 2010 22:55 (eleven years ago) link

As of right now.

Evan, Monday, 17 May 2010 22:55 (eleven years ago) link

Over 30, voted late 90s.

The first half of the decade had all the big ones, Slanted and Enchanted, Nevermind, Automatic For The People, Rid Of Me, Exile In Guyville, etc. But the 2nd half of the decade had a lot more great records. Just the year 1997 alone had a ridiculous amount of great music.

kornrulez6969, Tuesday, 18 May 2010 00:58 (eleven years ago) link

early 90s, 30+.

EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 18 May 2010 01:36 (eleven years ago) link

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

System, Friday, 21 May 2010 23:01 (eleven years ago) link

early 90s, 30+. Late 90s was weak sauce. Ugh.

Vanilla Douche (res), Friday, 21 May 2010 23:18 (eleven years ago) link

I do like this handful of late '90s radio alts:

(1996) Smashing Pumpkins - 1979
(1997) Foo Fighters - Everlong
(1998) Harvey Danger - Flagpole Sitta
(1999) New Radicals - You Get What You Give

But, c'mon:

(1990) Faith No More - Epic
(1990) Jane's Addiction - Been Caught Stealing
(1991) Big Audio Dynamite II - Rush
(1991) Jesus Jones - Right Here, Right Now
(1991) R.E.M. - Losing My Religion
(1991) Siouxsie & The Banshees - Kiss Them For Me
(1991) Nirvana - Smells Like Teen Spirit
(1992) Blind Melon - No Rain
(1992) Pearl Jam - Even Flow
(1992) Spin Doctors - Two Princes
(1993) Radiohead - Creep
(1993) The Breeders - Cannonball
(1994) Counting Crows - Mr. Jones
(1994) Green Day - Longview
(1994) Weezer - Undone-The Sweater Song
etc.

PappaWheelie V, Saturday, 22 May 2010 03:41 (eleven years ago) link

I like about as many of those songs from each list

The Reverend, Saturday, 22 May 2010 05:46 (eleven years ago) link

Neither. 1994-1996. The MID-90s!

Fastnbulbous, Saturday, 22 May 2010 06:09 (eleven years ago) link

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Saturday, 22 May 2010 23:01 (eleven years ago) link

boo yah

dud rock (crüt), Saturday, 22 May 2010 23:02 (eleven years ago) link

The old fart brigade stumbles onward.

EZ Snappin, Saturday, 22 May 2010 23:20 (eleven years ago) link

Late 90's had that huge influx of rap-metal. holy god that was an embarrasment

kelpolaris, Saturday, 22 May 2010 23:26 (eleven years ago) link

the first nu-metal album was 1994 (Korn), Kerrang was going on about Nu-Metal when that came out, though I think it took a while for it to catch on in the US.

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 11:44 (eleven years ago) link

lol exactly 100 votes! someone make a pie chart

every night i tell myself i am the custos, i am the wind. (some dude), Sunday, 23 May 2010 11:56 (eleven years ago) link

the first nu-metal album was 1994 (Korn), Kerrang was going on about Nu-Metal when that came out, though I think it took a while for it to catch on in the US.

well, wouldn't rage against the machine kind of count as the "first nu-metal album"? or is that too pedantic/too much about defining "nu-metal"?!?

keine Macht für dich mehr! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:13 (eleven years ago) link

RATM got the 'funk metal' and 'rap metal' tags a lot but i don't know if they were actually metal enough (or at all really) to get the 'nu-metal' label, they were just a harder alt-rock band

every night i tell myself i am the custos, i am the wind. (some dude), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:15 (eleven years ago) link

nah, Korn were the first band to be called it. I probably still have that issue of Kerrang up the loft. RATM never got called nu-metal, not even now.

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:15 (eleven years ago) link

not here anyway

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:15 (eleven years ago) link

Korn WERE pretty unique when they first came out, that much i will concede as true. though AFAIC it was because of Jon Davis's love for bagpipes (which made him kinda Bon Scott-ish).

keine Macht für dich mehr! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:18 (eleven years ago) link

the whole nu-metal thing wasnt just rap + metal, it had something to do with specific tunings didnt it? (at least at first) most of the early ones were Korn clones (remember that bunch of chancers Coal Chamber?) Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, Slipknot were second wave nu-metal i guess?

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:18 (eleven years ago) link

oh god one of my mates loved Stuck Mojo.

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:19 (eleven years ago) link

and anyway, though i didn't vote i would've voted early 90s (30+ y/o) -- a lot out of (continuing) ignorance of what was going on in the alt-rock world (other than the stuff on mainstream radio) more than anything else (graduated college, looked for and got my first post-college graduation job and was super busy, went back to law school ... and was therefore too busy/preoccupied to listen obsessively to college/left-of-the-dial stations any more or go to concerts).

keine Macht für dich mehr! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:20 (eleven years ago) link

xxpost I wouldn't say it had to do with specific tunings. A lot of nu-metal bands use(d) drop D tuning, but that predates nu-metal, and downtuned guitars are a heavy metal standby since the days of Sabbath. To me nu-metal is usually identifiable by the rhythm and the vocals.

dud rock (crüt), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:21 (eleven years ago) link

the whole nu-metal thing wasnt just rap + metal, it had something to do with specific tunings didnt it?

yeah, i think that's about right (plus the rhythms and distinctive nu-metal vocals) -- otherwise, you could back even further than Korn (or RATM) and say that either Faith No More or (God help us all) the Red Hot Chili Peppers were the first nu-metal bands.

keine Macht für dich mehr! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:22 (eleven years ago) link

yeah i wasn't conflating rap metal and nu-metal, just saying that RATM only ever got described as anything + metal when being lumped in with the biggest existing rap/rock trend.

every night i tell myself i am the custos, i am the wind. (some dude), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:23 (eleven years ago) link

I know FNM & Helmet kinda got blamed (unfairly) for nu-metal, but they definitely were not nu-metal.

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:30 (eleven years ago) link

a lot of the beefs against nu-metal, if i remember correctly, centered on (a) the whiny/juvenile/dumb lyrics (see especially Fred Durst) -- though emo/crabcore has taken over as the whipping boy in that regard nowadays; (b) the hip-hop influences were really badly executed (lyricists who couldn't rap to save their lives, shitty beats, etc.); and (c) the simple fact that this shit was inescapable.

keine Macht für dich mehr! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:35 (eleven years ago) link

D) and was shit

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 16:36 (eleven years ago) link

music aside, the early 90s (by which i mean 1990-1995) was more classic/exciting not just because i liked the alt-rock music better than the stuff that came out from 1996-1999. there was also the excitement of hearing stuff that my friends and i NEVER would've thought would make it onto mainstream radio end up precisely there -- and not just Nirvana. i was thrilled as a teen when stuff like the Cure and Depeche Mode finally got through to the mainstream in 1989-1990 (and wished that other favorites of that time like the Smiths or Echo and the Bunnymen would've stuck it out just a bit longer to enjoy the same kind of success) and they (along with Faith No More) kind of paved the way. i still remember the time when my friends and i were walking near Frat Row on our college campus circa 1992 and hearing Nirvana, the Pixies and Nine Inch Nails blasting therefrom. it seemed like it meant SOMETHING to us (esp. since in the not-too-distant-past all you'd hear from such quarters was either buttrock or dance-pop).

obviously, the thrill wore off when alt-rock became the NEW mainstream and you'd have to wade through the Stabbing Westwards, the Candleboxes, the Collective Souls etc. to get to the good stuff.

keine Macht für dich mehr! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 23 May 2010 17:37 (eleven years ago) link

It's also no coincidence that the rise of the Internet happened at the same time as major labels lost interest in "alternative" (nicely chronicled in Dean Wareham's memoir) and returned to boy bands and hip-hop. In 1992 I would've heard The Raincoats on my local college station; in 2000 I had to download them through Napster.

Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 23 May 2010 17:47 (eleven years ago) link

can you explain the connection there?

The Reverend, Sunday, 23 May 2010 17:49 (eleven years ago) link

i think he means that from Napster onwards you didn't have to rely on college/weirdo-commercial radio stations anymore to hear stuff like the Raincoats. i also imagine that there wasn't much (if any) profit to the record companies from stocking up on stuff like the Raincoats anyway (lol remember all of those cut-out bins full of the breeder's last splash?).

it's certainly no accident that it took a band like Metallica to take on Napster. who the hell would've bankrolled a legal challenge to Napster lead by the Raincoats or the Breeders (assuming that either band would've even wanted to sue in the first place)?!?

keine Macht für dich mehr! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 23 May 2010 18:02 (eleven years ago) link

Eisbaer otm -- I was finishing my reply before you posted.

Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 23 May 2010 18:02 (eleven years ago) link

the real surprise is the age breakdown?

iatee, Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:08 (eleven years ago) link

not w/r/t what they voted for, but that ilm is now majority 30+

iatee, Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:09 (eleven years ago) link

I still feel like The Youngest ILXor sometimes and I'm almost 27 now.

frozen cookie (Abbott), Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:15 (eleven years ago) link

ilm is ilxors who care enough about 90s alt-rock to click on a thread entitled "early-90s alt-rock vs. late-90s alt rock" are now majority 30+

(though I was surprised too)

atoms breaking heart (a passing spacecadet), Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:17 (eleven years ago) link

i'm not surprised -- really, i've always kind of taken it as an article of faith that the first half of the 90s was the better one wr2 music than the second and not surprised about the age either. it is kind of interesting and shocking to be reminded that lots of us are now old folk, though.

keine Macht für dich mehr! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:27 (eleven years ago) link

you guys seem to be overlooking
early-90s alt rock (younger than 30) 35

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:29 (eleven years ago) link

So it's clearly not just 30+ ilxors who think it was better

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:30 (eleven years ago) link

Of course, an 80s alt-rock vs 90s alt-rock would almost definitely be a win for the 80s, since the 80s is ILM's canonic decade.

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:31 (eleven years ago) link

pfunk, was mostly talking about the #s of over 30s vs. under 30s, not their choices

iatee, Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:33 (eleven years ago) link

it will be interesting to watch the 90s become more lionized over the course of the next decade or so. assuming that the 20-year lag still applies.

keine Macht für dich mehr! (Eisbaer), Sunday, 23 May 2010 20:37 (eleven years ago) link

we already have a (rather great) ace of base sounding-ass song in the billboard top ten so

The Reverend, Sunday, 23 May 2010 21:23 (eleven years ago) link

i wonder what would win early vs late 90s polls for pop, rnb, hip hop,metal etc

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 21:35 (eleven years ago) link

I'll do the metal one
Early 90s Metal Vs Mid 90s Metal Vs Late 90s Metal

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Sunday, 23 May 2010 21:37 (eleven years ago) link


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