should i give the grateful dead a chance?

xpost Why not? Given all the things people like and say about the Dead, including what you literally just wrote, why would someone not want to even try to get it? Like, Phish, I could give a phuck, but the Dead has always been intriguing, if only on paper.

https://www.beatlesbible.com/wp/media/681204_george-harrison-hells-angels-memo-apple-580x386.jpg

xpost Why not? Given all the things people like and say about the Dead, including what you literally just wrote, why would someone not want to even try to get it? Like, Phish, I could give a phuck, but the Dead has always been intriguing, if only on paper.

― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, June 8, 2019 8:07 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol i guess i just spent 20 years hating the dead and now that i like them i don't feel the need to convince anyone. but, as evidenced by this thread (and also as evidenced by how many times i've told my story about getting into the dead on this board, it was v much a dawning realization that happened while i listened to "sugaree" in a park), you're right, they *are* intriguing, and i also think the process of getting into them is kinda inherently interesting

Go for it! Pick, like, 10 from 1975 on or whatever.

Whoa whoa whoa... 1975 on? Is this a trap, lol?

xx-p that's the famous advance warning, yes -- looking a bit deeper, the "only two turned up" version seems to refer to apple itself, there may have been more wandering around london that day

Me, I’m still at the “intriguing but still I take the needle off/change the playlist after 30 seconds, don’t dig the Deadhead lifestyle” phase but maybe in my few remaining decades I will finally see the light.

Some of my favorite Dead-written songs (as “songs”):

St. Stephen
China Cat
Bertha
Wharf Rat
Manson’s Children
He’s Gone
Jack Straw
Ramble on Rose
Tennessee Jed
Mississippi Half-Step Uptown Toodeloo
Row Jimmy
Stella Blue
Eyes of the World (...heck, just listen to Wake of the Flood!)
U.S. Blues
China Doll
Unbroken Chain
Money Money (just kidding, it’s the pits)
Franklin’s Tower
Fire on the Mountain
Touch of Grey
Standing on the Moon

For me the issue with the Dead songs... I like the stuff that inspired them, the Harry Smith stuff, and the songs, you know, they wrote good songs. Attics of My Life is a great song. But they were always, even when they managed to hit the harmonies OK, they were always ragged, which isn't something I'm into. I grew up listening to Crosby Stills and Nash - obviously there's a lot of crossover there but CSN's harmonies were so much better. They're honestly just as limited in what they can do instrumentally as they are vocally, but I can adjust to an aimless noodle better than I can to a good song sung badly.

Was listening to "In Revolving Ash Light" from _Grayfolded_ again yesterday. I really liked _Plunderphonics_ and Grayfolded has been a struggle for me, because on first listen it just sounds like the fucking Grateful Dead. Going back to it after listening to the Dead is like re-listening to "Free Jazz" after actually getting some kind of functional understanding of free jazz; I can pick it apart and hear what Oswald is doing with the material, what he hears in the performances. This is useful to me because I have been very slow to understand the appeal of '69 Dark Stars; I came in through '72, and Oswald doesn't really touch '72. I don't think _Live/Dead_ is ever a record I'll like. I think St. Stephen is a perfectly awful song and have no particular desire to hear Pigpen do anything, which basically leaves Side A, and Garcia's soloing on it comes off to me as this protracted guitar hero thing, like listening to the goddamn Allman Brothers or something. Also, fuck the cuica.

Anyway, yesterday I listened to "In Revolving Ash Light" on headphones and basically heard Garcia's constant soloing as background - listen to enough of it and it's easy to ignore. What I heard in it yesterday was the roil and churn of the background, the way adding multiple layers increases the chaos inherent in pretty much any Dead performance. The way Oswald is interested in getting Garcia to harmonize with himself, the panning, the instruments popping in and out. Over everything else the way Oswald replicates the flow of a good Dead performance. I know it's a hippie cliche, but it does remind me a little bit of a Mandelbrot zoom, the way it seems like it's growing and going somewhere but is really just getting deeper into itself.

I might have to try Cleveland '73 again. I hear it described as "inside out", but mostly it just sounded like lethargic bunk.

there's a bit in richard neville's playpower about the angels visit to london/apple... the details of which escape me now, but would have been a near contemporary recollection of events.

xp the Allman Brothers rule, wtf

Manson’s Children sic

picked up a boot recently with the demo version of that & a stretched-out live rendition from the miami pop festival with some of the worst vocals i've ever heard the dead lay down (looking at you bob weir), but the playing is mindbendingly intense!

whoops, lol

MASON’S Children

Josh try the aforementioned Wake Of The Flood/Blues For Allah/Mars Hotel run, some good songs on those

xp the Allman Brothers rule, wtf

― Ambient Police (sleeve)

they're no hampton grease band (now THERE'S a jam band for you!)

the allman brothers do fuckin rule

their appeal seems p distinct from the dead despite surface-level similarities

Just listened to a bunch of those songs. Some I know from other people doing them, like Bertha and Wharf Rat (Midnight Oil is like the least Dead-y band ever). Some of those songs are totally fine but all in the same loping funkless slow-groove-while-guitar-noodles-aimlessly mode that I don't really like. Some of those songs totally sound like Band songs that aren't as good as the Band, but I do like the Wake of the Flood stuff, which I'd never heard. Still very Band-y, but not bad! I have a bad feeling that as much as people may prefer live versions of this stuff they may make the aspects I don't like go on even longer and more prominently - off harmonies, rhythm-free rhythm section, incessant guitar noodles ...

(I concede it's not fair to keep bringing up the Band, because not only were they exceptional, even they couldn't keep it together for more than a couple of albums.)

Anyway, maybe I'll give that mid '70s streak a shot! Rush, I do see what you're getting at when describing the way the guitar kind of turns in on itself. I just wish the playing was more interesting (to me), but also to be fair, if I wanted to hear something on par with (either) Miles Davis Quintet I would just listen to that.

I will say I watched a Dead & Co. set on YouTube for some reason and if you ever doubted Jerry's importance wow you should see what a turgid shitshow it is now

I thought trey did a very good job on the initial few shows. I don’t have a problem with John Mayer as a guitar player but his style is too one dimensional. Multi-dimensional is a good way to describe Jerry’s approach, I guess

(I concede it's not fair to keep bringing up the Band, because not only were they exceptional, even they couldn't keep it together for more than a couple of albums.)

I have a pet theory about how The Band had 'it' up 'til 70, when they got outpaced by band's they influenced, like the Dead, Little Feat, Neil Young, Sir Doug etc.

I don't think they were outpaced, it's just that they changed the DNA of music. Afterter the Band, even Eric Clapton and the Beatles and the superstar like were trying to be like the Band. The acts you note I think came close to the *idea* of the Band, but of course they were a one-off.

I blame Manuel and Danko sinking further into alcoholism and drugs, ceding all control to Robbie

“Cats under the stars” and “Reuben and Cherise” are two lovely Jerry solo things that y’all should check out

I also don't really associate the Band and the Dead that much. feel like the Band is fundamentally an R&B/rock n roll band and the Dead is a folk band

yeah

the band are r&b

oh you said that, lol

“Cats under the stars” and “Reuben and Cherise” are two lovely Jerry solo things that y’all should check out”

Seconded...

"The Weight," "Up On Cripple Creek" and "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" are about as definitive as Band songs get, and there's nothing particularly or conventionally R&B or rock about them. I think the key to the Band is that no matter what they were playing they were innately soulful and funky, more a matter of "how" than "what." The vibe and groove of "Cripple Creek" in particular is a good example of a song whose vibe the Dead sometimes echoes, at least to my ears, but imo minus the soul and funkiness, at least not to the degree that the Band delivered it.

i like the grateful dead. i think they're a pretty good band,

Up On Cripple Creek is funky as hell!!

One of the funkiest of all time! but there is nothing particularly r&B or rock about it.

I also don't really associate the Band and the Dead that much. feel like the Band is fundamentally an R&B/rock n roll band and the Dead is a folk band

I blame Manuel and Danko sinking further into alcoholism and drugs, ceding all control to Robbie

Some of those songs are totally fine but all in the same loping funkless slow-groove-while-guitar-noodles-aimlessly mode that I don't really like.

Anyway, maybe I'll give that mid '70s streak a shot! Rush, I do see what you're getting at when describing the way the guitar kind of turns in on itself. I just wish the playing was more interesting (to me), but also to be fair, if I wanted to hear something on par with (either) Miles Davis Quintet I would just listen to that.

― Josh in Chicago

if you want to listen to the dead at all you really have to get into the lope. the dead are the lopiest band ever. also, i've heard the dead trying to be "funky" - "funkless" is absolutely not a pejorative when it comes to the dead imo.

i do think there's some really good stuff on blues for allah, but i'm a proghead. i feel like the prog on there is better than the awkward forays into seven and eleven they tried to do back in the '60s.

the dead of course were never on par with miles, but particularly after miles opened for them in '70 they started to get this "shitty fusion miles" vibe, which to me is worth listening to. they peaked in '72 for me.

tried cleveland '73; didn't last five minutes with "dark star", too much of nothing, but the china->rider clicked with me for whatever reason. i don't know if i'd heard any '73 china->riders before. vox were really nice! jam wasn't as good as the song portion, which is... rare with the dead... but was still good. i'll have to check out 11-11.

lol shitty fusion miles. It's like that bit in the first Wayne's World.

Wayne: Who is playing tonight?
Doorman: The Shitty Beatles
Wayne: Are they any good?
Doorman: No man, they suck!

i think aimless solos are cool, what's the point of having an 'aim' anyway

ask robert fripp, he'll quote some gurdjieff at you

i think aimless solos are cool, what's the point of having an 'aim' anyway

Well, for starters, if you are always soloing then it's no longer a solo.

One thing that surprised me when I first gave a serious listen to the Dead (it was the 8/27/72 “Dark Star” posted on ILM by Scott Seward) was how focused the soloing actually was. There was no marking time or treading water waiting for the next idea to come along; there was absolutely an aim to the soloing, even if that aim seemed to be very far in the distance. Unlike, say, some/most/all live Cream stuff, there were no moments of “shit...um...ok...I guess I’ll just repeat this one Blues Lick until something else occurs to me.”

This Cleveland 73 show must be something, per archive.org

"
A funny thing about this Dark Star is it doesn't really start; the tuning after Big River simply dissolves into a series of spacey jams and soon you realize that this is in fact the plan. About 12 minutes in Phil fires the engines and turns the ship out of orbit, until at 17 minutes we have arrived in the deepest, darkest part of the galaxy, a place inhabited by giant, planet-sized beings made of multi-color translucent goo. We wander here for a while, the engines shut down, the ship's sails filled by the cosmic winds. "

my favorite dead archive.org comment, from the barton hall show:

Yes, it is overrated. It is not *THAT* much better than a handful of other shows. It is, however, the absolute #1 work of art that I consider proof of the divine essence of man

haha the comments are so addictive

A funny thing about this Dark Star is it doesn't really start; the tuning after Big River simply dissolves into a series of spacey jams and soon you realize that this is in fact the plan. About 12 minutes in Phil fires the engines and turns the ship out of orbit, until at 17 minutes we have arrived in the deepest, darkest part of the galaxy, a place inhabited by giant, planet-sized beings made of multi-color translucent goo. We wander here for a while, the engines shut down, the ship's sails filled by the cosmic winds. We can make out a massive, swirling dark cloud. The track cuts through this storm with a nice melody on the bridge but it isn't quite what anyone expected. It's one of those tracks that's always got me wondering about the structure of the song. Maybe it's a very deliberate nod to the dark art that was The Darkness? The second half, though, sounds like anything but a nod. It's more a slow song; a tune that has you listening for subtle shifts from one note to the next. But there's more than subtle shifts here. Phil goes into a very subtle "space opera" mode with a melody that is very reminiscent of some of his best songs.

i've read worse hyperbole about "i feel love"

Now imagine that song exactly as is, but with Jerry Garcia noodling constantly just below the surface.

how could I forget the title track of "Terrapin Station" when we're talking about post-75 Dead, that thing is one of my faves and sounds like Jethro Tull

I'm also pretty partial to Go To Heaven!

“help on the way” is my fave 70s thing by them. So many great chords and voicings, I love the composition, and J’s guitar tone is great.

“unbroken chain” is fun too, find the bit that animal collective sampled

Now imagine that song exactly as is, but with Jerry Garcia noodling constantly just below the surface.

― Josh in Chicago

sounds pretty great tbh

i've heard robert fripp doing "i feel love" with blondie, it's good

OK, finally made it through the entirety of the Cleveland Dark Star. Jesus Christ this is god-awful. Sit through twenty minutes of just plain nothing, I mean pure somnolescent nothingness, and it turns out the "meat" of this is Phil Lesh making fart noises for ten minutes. Now, when Phil is actually playing shit he's my favorite member of the Dead. The guttural distorted noise he spits out on the Farrell Hall 1970 tape is some of my favorite Dead jamming. Part of this I think is that whenever Phil does that shit it is always going to come out on tape as distorted and ugly, so I figure if I'm going to listen to it it might as well be on the most distorted, low-quality audience tape possible to really get the full effect. Also Keith's keyboard tone here is almost as god-awful as Constanten's. I guess I don't get to complain because I like Mike Ratledge and his Lowrey, which sounds like a stylophone with a full keyboard, but again, it's the difference between endearingly shitty and obnoxiously shitty. Anyway this Dark Star is a mess. I suspect the only reason people like it is because it's the longest Dark Star ever, which it isn't.