should i give the grateful dead a chance?

Do not give the Grateful Dead a chance. I have given the Grateful Dead several chances, and they continue to bore me solid. Friends say "Oh, you're into 60s garage, listen to their first album..." nope, sorry, it's still uninspired hippie stoner jams. Friends say "Oh, you like spacerock, listen to this or that experimental jam album..." nope, sorry, it's still uninspired hippie stoner jam drivel. Friends say "Oh, you have to listen to it on acid to get it." I listened to it on acid. It only stretched the INTERMINABLE boredom to the breaking point where it was a relief to sit and listen to radio static afterwards.

I think that Deadheadism is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. If you have it, you will like them. If you do not have it, then no ammount of "Dude, no, you have to hear this most ultimate jam session that they did on this super-rare collectible live bootleg out-take from 1973..." in the world will ever convince you to find even a modicum of interest.

I know that calling a band "boring" is verboten on this forum. The Dead are not just boring, they are interminable, self indulgent, they noodle, they wibble, they do not drone in a transcendant manner, no they ANNIHILATE any sense of enjoyment of music to the point where I would rather listen to elevator music rather than the Dead. In fact, that is what they are. They are the elevator music of hippie stoner jam psychedelia.

Do not waste your time. Sing along with the hoover instead.

A: God this band are shit.

(Keith Richards tells that gag - which is a bit rich considering that 'Can You Hear Me Knocking' sounds just like the Dead...)

I think they're worth checking out rather than applying some knee jerk reaction. But obviously lots of people don't agree.

Did you even read my fucking post? This is not some knee jerk reaction. This is a carefully thought out aesthetic decision that I have reached after repeated exposure and more consideration that I would give to most bands who repeatedly bombarded me with shit.

Everything about the Grateful Dead is repulsive - the music (yes I *can* judge them on a minute or so), the fans, the mythology.... They're a crystallisation of everything I dislike in music.

The thing is, I love the IDEA of the Dead - the endless noodling jams, those moments of improvisation when they reach the mythical 'zone', the community of fans, all those bootlegs to tick off and collect, the Verlaine-esque sound of Garcia's gtr, the vast quantities of drugs etc etc.

But - their recs just never seem to live up to the rep - before I ever listened to them, I imagined they were like the most mega-cosmic freak out group of all time, but when I finally did spin a few of their albs all I got was wimpy country-lite w/ really terrible singing. They rarely seem to rock out in any meaningful way, their cover versions are just AWFUL (esp. the 'bluesy' Pigpen-led stuff) and Hunter's lyrics are hippy bilge.

Without wishing to sound too alt snooty, Ghost and esp. Acid Mothers Temple do the whole folk-psych rock jam thing w/ so much more passion, imagination and freaky fun.

No, I don't think I recall the Dead ever having extended sax solos in any of their songs.

You obviously never heard Branford Marsalis jam with them, then.

I knew when I saw this thread appear it would be full of the usual "the Dead are the worst band ever" stuff... they seem to be one of a small handful of bands it's ok to heap your worst insults on around here. So I'll do my usual and say yes "American Beauty" and "Workingman's Dead" are full of concise, well-written pop songs, their mid 70's LPs on their own label are amazing ("Blues for Allah" is my pick), and as great a guitarist as Tom Verlaine is, Garcia is better. He's a better vocalist, too. I know that for whatever reason the Dead are a band many people will just never permit themselves to like, so I expect to make no converts.

I think SY owe a lot to the dead in the way that they'd start a song and then they would use that as a basis for a jam and get back to the song.

The singing isn't to everyone's tastes but at a time when ppl are listening to Thom Yorke that isn't such a big problem.

For myself, they don't trouble my interest, and I can't say they will be anytime soon.

You obviously never heard Branford Marsalis jam with them, then.

Nope, and although I'm sure he's, uh, "funkier" than his brother, I can't imagine his jams with the Dead approach the instrumental break of "Can You Hear Me Knocking" (which was, after all, used by many a black "urban" radio station in the 1970s as promo music). Anyway, the point was that the claim that "Can You Hear Me Knocking" sounds like the Dead is way, way off-base.

''I think that Deadheadism is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. If you have it, you will like them. If you do not have it, then no ammount of "Dude, no, you have to hear this most ultimate jam session that they did on this super-rare collectible live bootleg out- take from 1973..." in the world will ever convince you to find even a modicum of interest.''

it's bollocks! any band will have it's fans and haters but to dismiss it as 'chemical imbalance' is bullshit. Plus the 'annihalate' line (see dave q's ans).

Personally, the only song of theirs that I can instantly recognize is "Touch Of Grey". I'm fine with that.

If you're still hell bent on checking out the Dead, I'd start with any of the Dick's Picks live releases from 1972 or earlier. Even then, listening to them are like trying to dig for gold in a mine that's been completely played out. There's a lot of shovelling involved for very little payoff.

How is the Grateful Dead any different?

There must just be a neurotransmitter that makes people like SHIT, that is the explanation.

iirc Crosby claims to have helped the Dead with their three-part harmonies at one point ... but you can only do so much.

It's definitely part of Dead lore that whatever film, CD, song, bootleg etc of theirs is under discussion, it's never the right 'intro' for non-believers. But that really is true of the Grateful Dead Movie imho

I thought that was Phish lore!

tbf as an outsider, the grateful dead movie is a better intro than the three or four canonic LPs I have a long try a couple of years ago upthread

it's not good as a movie (jampacked with fvck-awful animation and vox pops with their more annoying fans) but it points you towards the endless twinkling improv bits™️ rather than away from them -- i definitely now get it more than i did

I quoted this in some other dead thread but mention of the grateful dead movie caused me to search for it - I've used "get my space together" for like 30 years now because of this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZPJ_VN3Iis

Jerry’s voice before it went to shit had a lovely timbre imho

This is true, but also his later voice added some levity to performances of, say, "Black Muddy River" and "Wharf Rat" after it went to shit.

apparently I can't like to a specific time - add &t=2210s to that URL

Jerry’s voice before it went to shit had a lovely timbre

the minute that any vocals happen, I want to turn the music off.

lol the fact that both of these are commonly held opinions is one of the great paradoxes of the Dead.

The vocals are fine on the albums. No one’s required to listen to live shows.

My controversial Dead opinion is that they were very significant album band, and you could exclusively listen to the albums (studio plus major/official “live” ones), and be very fulfilled.

As a moderate fan, I feel an outsider as I have probably only listened to about 15 - 20 % of their live catalogue.

The sheer size of the catalogue, and number of versions of songs, is intimidating - and then there’s other irritations such as the more annoying cult-like fans, and distaste for the corporate bloat that the whole money-making GD enterprise became (and still is).

Great band overall though.

Two summers ago I listened to approximately ~25 versions of "Dark Star" as an exercise, and it allowed me— who really only knew a few major studio records and Europe '72— to understand why people go gaga over this stuff. Alas, the singing keeps me from really taking a deeper dive than that experiment allowed me, but I don't mind it if people put the Dead on or whatever. I just find the phenomenon really funny in an almost confusing way!

Haven't seen The Grateful Dead Movie, but The Closing of Winterland-1978) used to get broadcast as as local PBS fundraiser, and certainly had the twinkly bits minus crap animation x fanz (lots more music on 4-CD soundtrack, and DVD incl. a whole sep. New Years show at Winterland, but I've never seen it); also, I'm told that Downhill From Here(1989) is a good concert doc. Also have only seen bits of the Sunshine Daydream concert show, although album is good. Excerpts incl. ugly dancing and sweat, glaring radiation ov Sun.

xpost Then, like me, this might probably be your favorite GD release.

https://plunderphonic.bandcamp.com/album/grayfolded

The vox just murder this band for me, and I can actually take some Jerry without running screaming for the hills (I will rep for Shady Grove with David Grisman as one of the alltime great albums of renditions of folksongs).

I just tried to imagine what singer would make the Dead appealing to me, and after some soul-searching it turns out it’s Perry Farrell (circa Ritual), triple-tracked vocals and treatments and all. I think I could listen to that all day. (Not sure how it would fare on chuggers like “Casey Jones” or whatevs, but I’d listen to a lot of “Dark Star” in that mode.)

But then who am I kidding? I could listen to a lot of “Dark Star” in any mode. I put together a playlist of every version I could find on Spotify in chronological order — about 20 hours’ worth. AND I’VE LISTENED TO IT

Also have only seen bits of the Sunshine Daydream concert show, although album is good. Excerpts incl. ugly dancing and sweat, glaring radiation ov Sun.

Naked pole guy! Honestly, the "Dark Star" from that show is essential Dead viewing imo. It's a killer version, probably my favorite ever, by itself, but paired with the encroaching dusk as they played makes it a little harder (provided of course you get past the crap animations they dropped in between the footage).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG2lkIRoCqc

the "Dark Star" from that show is essential Dead viewing imo.

That "Dark Star" was what made me do a complete (and completely unexpected) 180 on the Dead. Despised them for decades, then suddenly, "...hm...this is...good...?"

And therein lies my contradictory Dead opinion: I have yet to be transported by a "Dark Star." I like the earliest ones best, when they're 5 or 6 minutes. After that became one of their lengthy exploratory vehicles I just lose patience. One person's lovely twinkly bits are another's self-indulgent nonsense, I guess.

Even though I've already been a big fan of "Dark Star", I've been enjoying this blog, Every Dark Star, that does what the title says and has some folks going through every "Dark Star" in chronological order, noting the developments of the various themes and modular jams over the years. Paired with specific timing notations, I've found it to be a really great supplement while I'm listening.

Well that's why I linked Grayfolded above there. It kinda IS the ultimate "Dark Star."

I could take or leave "Dark Star," it's definitely never been a cornerstone of my Dead appreciation (just to provide a contrasting experience).

Well that's why I linked _Grayfolded_ above there. It kinda IS the ultimate "Dark Star."

one of my quarantine projects has been to listen to all my Dead shows in order. I'm up to November '77 and all three shows I've heard absolutely rip. that Colgate show in particular is as good if not better than the best May shows.

One of my favorite little corners of the live catalog is in the mid-80s when Jerry’s voice is really fading and he does slow, often death-related, ballads. 83-85 Baby Blues and Stella Blues tend to be good examples of this. His croaky voice makes it sound like It Really Is All Over Now, Baby Blue.

The She Belongs to Me from the Greek Theater in June ‘85 is prob my favorite example. The series of killer guitar solos don’t hurt.

I've never minded their voices, but now it occurs to me that one could make copies of mostly instrumental performances, edit out the vocal bits---also, I like David Murray's Dark Star---The Music of the Grateful Dead, with his Octet, except the final track feat. just him and Weir (playing acoustic guitar). The 'Tube usually has at least one show clip of Murray onstage with the Dead---when they were trying to make up for Garcia's fade by bringing on the guests (wish I could find Ornette's appearance). Think there might be more w Murray in the Dead section of archive.org.

The late jerry ballads are too real
Like Elvis doing American trilogy live in 76-77

thanks for that link, Ned.

Grayfolded rules, happy to see more love here (Oswald is also a genius, deep digging is rewarding)

Yeah you can pick up all five of his releases on Bandcamp there for $25 I think — well worth it.

Wow, listening to the Doors album, it’s great! Eccojams

https://plunderphonic.bandcamp.com/album/elektrax

yeah Elektrax is amazing, "vane" is my fave there

And therein lies my contradictory Dead opinion: I have yet to be transported by a "Dark Star." I like the earliest ones best, when they're 5 or 6 minutes. After that became one of their lengthy exploratory vehicles I just lose patience. One person's lovely twinkly bits are another's self-indulgent nonsense, I guess.

― Three Rings for the Elven Bishop (Dan Peterson), Monday, May 9, 2022 12:27 PM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think I said similar a few times upthread. BOOOOOring.

also, many xps: I've always disliked most of the Dead graphics (other than the skull as others said), and I think it was an impediment to me getting into them. They really have some of the most uniquely terrible yet iconic art.

I kinda want a poster of the dead set cover art

https://www.dead.net/sites/g/files/g2000007851/files/dead_site_files/images/19810826_1551.jpg

I mean in aggregate their album art isn't the worst ever, but the dancing bear, the ice cream guy as noted above, etc.

HIGH-STEPPING BEAR!!

Here come the highsteppa (owsleybear)

Hold up, bear!

EXCLUSIVE: A podcast about the disappearance and murder of a number of Grateful Dead fans is the latest audio series to be adapted for television.

Joe Berlinger, the filmmaker behind iconic rock doc Metallica: Some Kind of Monster and a slew of true-crime docuseries, has teamed up with Wheelhouse Entertainment to develop Dead and Gone as a scripted series.

The podcast, a true crime music mystery set in the world of Jerry Garcia’s psychedelic rock band, comes from To Live and Die in LA producer Tenderfoot TV and Disgraceland producer Double Elvis.

...“Joe Berlinger’s contribution to the true crime space is simply unmatched, and there is no one we’d rather partner with to adapt this complex investigation to the small screen. Many people don’t realize this larger story behind the Grateful Dead, and even though they’re so associated with ideas of freewill and positivity, it’s important we draw attention to these terrible occurrences existing within the fanbase,” added co-hosts Payne Lindsey and Jake Brennan.

it’s important we draw attention to these terrible occurrences existing within the fanbase

xps re: late Jerry ballads, most of my Dead listening is pre-1980 but he absolutely sings the shit out of this “Ship of Fools” from 8/11/87:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIS3HtR_s1M

Also “Dark Star” is forever and always my favorite Dead thing, and I realize there’s nothing I can say to change anyone’s mind about it, but I would urge anyone who hasn’t heard the version from 8/1/73 to check it out. Peak blissed-out space fusion Dead with a long ambient post-verse jam with Jerry on searing slide guitar. And imo an even better -> “El Paso” than Veneta.

Also never skip an “El Paso”

Agreed about 8/1/73. There’s a version on the archive where the sound quality on Dark Star etc is prob the best I’ve heard for any 1973 recording. Stonerific.

I'm disgusted with myself for saying "I don't mind" their vocals: most of my fave studio performances involve very effective solo/group singing/vocalizing, and I'm always ready for another live "El Paso" and "Estimated Prophet" (tend to dread "Stella Blue," because Garcia tends to be too good at squeezing out every drop of pathos).
Hadn't thought of Pigpen as songwriter, but yeah: https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/the-only-self-penned-pigpen-track-on-a-grateful-dead-album/ (Despite title, several songs are mentioned here).

I always have time for the studio “help on the way,” especially the opening

one of the more unexpected musical detours of my life has been the sheer amount of time i've spent listening to the dead over the past few years. i spent a long time late last year actually putting together a rough sketch of a "grayfolded"-style dark star focusing only on the tom constanten era of the song. i don't think anybody else has actually heard the result, but i did write up my results here:

https://www.alanauch.org/wtob/2021/11/19/dark-star-69/

i'm pretty happy with the result, and i have listened to it a fair amount in the six months since, so i think it was worth doing!

One of my main interests in bootleg recordings is what I pretentiously call “terroir”, the unique way in which any particular recording reflects its particular sense of place and the circumstances under which it was made. Is it an outdoor gig? Indoor? Audience tapes, by their nature, have a tremendous sense of terroir to them, but even soundboard tapes can differ widely based on the venue and the mix.

this is a super interesting take that concretizes some of my sentimentality for bootlegs, thanks for the link! great stuff.

also not pretentious, imho <3

this is A+ funny as well:

TC’s old organ was one of the shittiest excuses for an organ used by a major rock group, making Mike Ratledge’s Lowrey sound positively sophisticated in comparison.

hands off mike ratledge's lowrey! all organs shd sound like that

I learned to listen to their music without looking for an aim or purpose, learned to see their songs as a series of moments rather than a trajectory.

this is the key, took me a little bit to understand this but it frees you from expectation