show etiquette

hey old school heads, here's a thing:
the first time i saw sonic youth (2006), there was no pit.

One thing with smoking being taken out of the clubs is you don’t have the lit cig in the mouth to deal with unruly people moshing outside the designated lunatic fringe. ‘oh did my lit cig hit yer face…ooops sorry, things going crazy you know…’

i feel like theres a middle way with this stuff, i love a good mosh pit but imo its also pretty easy not to hit or touch someone who clearly doesnt want to be hit or touched

like obv once in a great while you get people like the guy in Ubiquitor's story and thats a different thing, but moshing into ppl on the fringe who clearly dont want to be involved and being like "its a rock show what did you expect nerd" is disgusting savagery

When I saw Fucked Up, the pit was insane, just 10 sweaty bony dudes flinging their elbows everywhere. The whole floor cleared, all the women and smaller dudes and anyone who wasn’t in it to be beaten to shit pressed up against the walls. I was super disappointed the band didn’t say or do anything, in fact they seemed to enjoy it. Weird given what I know of their politics.

This is probably excessive in terms of thinking, but for me it’s just thinking ahead - “what kind of band is this?” “What is likely going to happen in the crowd in reaction to the music?” And then situating myself accordingly. I don’t see a lot of shows these days where pits are likely to erupt. The last one was Lightning Bolt, in 2018 and 2019, and I guessed accurately where the danger zone was and stayed far enough away from it to avoid getting sucked into the void.

Nothing wrong with the void as long as those within it have enough self-awareness to contain theirnon-violent mayhem to said void.

(2018 *or* 2019, I meant. And agreed, H.P.!)

re: moshing

Moshing can be incredibly fun at the right shows, as a bonding experience amongst super-excited fans. Moshing can also get you hurt, like my friend John, who broke his leg doing it.

Moshing is supposed to only include the willing. However, thanks to the laws of physics, even the most well-meaning people can take a tumble into innocent bystanders. And...there are lots of not-well meaning people in the pits.

I've made plenty of friends in pits. I've also been punched in the stomach (twice) by assholes taking cheap shots, and once kicked in the chest by someone who inexplicably took a flying leap at me.

so I have mixed feelings on it. which is to say I think it's perfectly fine whenever everybody abides by the accepted rules, and confines it to a localized area and nobody is there to hurt anybody or so intoxicated that they go crashing into other people just trying to watch the show.

but when even one or two people decide to act like assholes, it can easily ruin it.

also crowdkilling, the practice of deliberately harming people who aren't even in the pit, is fucking psychotic and everyone who does it should be arrested for assault. these dorks at deathcore shows that try to legitimize it by saying "why go to a show if you're just going to stand there" are pricks who have probably never suffered long-term debilitating injuries. but deathcore sucks so it doesn't surprise me that few of those dorks are there to actually listen to the music.

I was never a true pit warrior, but when I was going to shows with truly wild pits (Fishbone, Revolting Cocks, Circle Jerks, Ramones/GBH/Warzone, Suicidal Tendencies/Exodus/Pantera) in the late 80s and early 90s, there was absolutely a much better sense of etiquette — bands telling people from the stage to pick up anyone who fell over, etc. I definitely remember a palpable shift in atmosphere between 1989 and 1990, which took place for me at two different Red Hot Chili Peppers shows. The first one was a free outdoor gig in 1989; they were opening for Killing Joke, who I didn't stick around for because my friends had to leave, but the crowd was all punks and freaks bouncing off each other and having fun. The second gig was a headlining show at the Ritz (the "new Ritz" that used to be Studio 54) in NYC, and the crowd was full of shirtless dudes in backwards Duke hats punching people in the neck, and it sucked.

i always laugh at dorks who go to House of Blues shows in Orlando and think they'll get away with whatever they want. like...they have 2 active duty cops that hang by the door, and the security is pretty much zero tolerance, there are no warnings. normally not a fan of this level of enforcement presence obv because ACAB and I've seen security outright manhandle people at shows and festivals at other venues, but the people employed at the Orlando HOB aren't that type. maybe it's being on Disney property idk.

still the most amusing thing I saw was at a Bad Religion show, twenty seconds into their opener ("Suffer"), this guy was absolutely terrorizing people on the floor and he was ejected immediately. he didn't even make it halfway through their first song and his night was over. watching his face turn from that of a hellion to a whimpering dog in three seconds, I wish I had a screencap.

Co-sign the etiquette. The worst beating I ever took in a pit, and this was after years of death and thrash shows in the early 90s, was at Rev Horton Heat.

one of the longest controversial and still unresolved show etiquette debates came to a head last night in the most passive aggressive 'fight' I've ever seen at a show.

I still don't 100% know what started it, but the Madonna show being an arena show, and the show starting with mostly dance numbers, most people were standing.

in front of us, there was a lady with her friends who were standing, and this group of people two rows behind didn't like that, as they wanted to sit and couldn't see with them standing. I don't know if words were exchanged prior or what, but the people in back began shining their phone flashlight on the standers, and the standers in front started mouthing back and flipping them off every time they did it. It became obvious that they then were not going to sit again for the remainder of the show, out of pass-agg revenge. even during the ballads, the one instigator wouldn't sit.

this passive aggressive battle continued for about a half hour. it always looked like it was going to build to an actual fight but....never did because each side would then hear a song start that they liked and forget only to remember they hated each other two minutes later and restart it.

Security showed up after the 'skirmish' had long dissipated and one of the participants had actually left, when there was only 5 minutes left in the show.

but like...what IS really the accepted show etiquette for standing in an arena? mom and I sat often but the people in front of us didn't, but we didn't really get mad about it or say anything because I didn't feel like it was fair to harsh their vibe since we were taking a breather. but when I would stand I kept looking behind me to see if anybody was sitting because I'm a people pleaser who's always afraid of upsetting people.

i feel like it's kinda accepted that people are going to be standing at arena concerts, but is there an expectation that during certain songs, a la ballads, everyone sits to kinda give everyone a break? were the light shining dicks being children too?

idk....I never know what people's thoughts are on that. I usually go to shows in dingy clubs where it's not a thing.

Side issue, but imo the light shining dicks were being dicks because they lights probably distracted other attendees more than the standers themselves.

well distracted me enough that I kept paying attention to their little fight, yeah.

Seats are for sitting. It’s not a dancehall

counterpoint, it's a concert playing dance music.

(fwiw I would lean sitting myself, but I personally would find it hard to fault people for dancing to dance songs)

“Live to tell” is not dance music

tbh shit like this is why I never go to concerts that are seated

Is general admission usually cheaper than seats at arena shows? Sucks for older people who can't be on their feet for extended periods of time and are basically forced to look at people's backs the whole time.

xp - Yep, I'm sure that was the only song she performed all evening.

She probably also did “used to be my playground”

Is general admission usually cheaper than seats at arena shows? Sucks for older people who can't be on their feet for extended periods of time and are basically forced to look at people's backs the whole time.

― beard papa, Friday, April 5, 2024 4:15 PM bookmarkflaglink

at this particular one, there were no GA seats, as the floor was fully seated as well (and almost four figure ticket cost). even the nosebleeds though were expensive. yay concert economy in the 21st century

She probably also did “used to be my playground”

― calstars, Friday, April 5, 2024 4:16 PM bookmarkflaglink

sadly, no. the ballads were ....."Live to Tell", 30 seconds of "Crazy For You", 45 seconds of "Don't Cry for Me Argentina", "Take a Bow", and...if you count "Bad Girl". out of a 2 hour show.

so most of the songs were dancey, but not all.

I feel like if most ppl are standing (in your section or the show in general), that sets the tone, and you just have to roll with standers in front of you. Nothing wrong, I guess, with very politely asking someone to sit during a ballad, but they may not be cool about it (...you know how ppl can be); and I don't think they're in the wrong for choosing to stand. Obv this sucks for someone with limited mobility or who's unable to stand... not sure if there are seats with accommodations for that (but I doubt it?)

It would be weird for someone to be, like, the only one in their section standing – but not everyone would be self-conscious enough to even that (as you and I would be), and I guess then it's between them and the folks behind them.

*even avoid that

I almost saw a fight at a Crowded House show this past year. One guy stayed standing during a couple of newer songs, when of course most other people were sitting down (which is standard old people concert behavior). A few people behind him started grousing, with increased anger. The guy turned around and basically said, hey, this is my favorite band, I want to stand! The people behind him got even angrier, so the guy turned around entirely and started to approach his critics. Security intervened, calmed him down, and he finally sat. And like 2 seconds later the band started one of their hit songs and everybody stood up again.

I'm with calstars on this. If it's a seated venue sit the fuck down and don't obstruct the view of others sitting behind you. It's just basic good manners.

Yes. otherwise don’t be surprised to see yourself in the horrible savages thread

Playing devil's advocate here... so people who go see a concert for a group or artist that plays dance music that can't afford floor tickets are just fucked and must stay seated?

If it’s really dance music there wouldn’t be seats

Sure, in an ideal world. But I saw Janelle Monae at the Chicago Theatre once and it was non-stop dance songs. I think you might have lost a limb or an eye if you suggested that crowd should have stayed seated.

the urge to adopt a hardman black-and-white opinion on stuff like this is so tiresome

Chicago Theatre is where the Crowded House show was. It's also one of those places where if you dance in the aisles, the ushers will likely make you go back to your seat.

the people shining their phone lights to punish people dancing at a concert are weird and obnoxious, the people standing constantly are somewhat inconsiderate

I really felt like it was two groups of inconsiderate people trying to win approval from everyone around them that the other was awful but nobody else gave a fuck...other than me, because I am addicted to watching conflicts in public events.

*everyone else* - "wau Madonna is suspended 100 feet in the air"

me - "man the energy in Seat 10 is palpable, there might be a beer-cup toss coming"

smoking (cigarettes) seems to be a thing at shows recently. had to move at the Kim Gordon show last week because the smoke was too strong (and I don't feel I'm particularly sensitive, other folks were moving as well). and when performers light up on stage, you get people hooting approval (like, it's freedom, man). younger crowd doesn't remember how bad it used to suck going to shows in a cloud of smoke.

Rosalía's show at the Bill Graham last year was an absolutely beautiful experience - except for the insane fight that broke out right in front of us towards the right hand side. It was pretty intense, to the point one of my friends threw her water at the people fighting prompting others to do the same which finally seemed to calm them down. For sure affected how I felt the rest of the night, the anxiety and paranoia cut into the sheer ecstacy of the show (which was insanely great). Hadn't seem something like that before at a show up close.

I also hate mosh pits. Closest I ever felt to possibly dying in a club was at the NIN show at the Cow Palace in 1999 for the Fragile Tour. My feet left the ground as the crowd moshed in a super densely packed area and I noped the fuck away from that noise. I was young too. I'd rather sit in a seat and smoke a fatty or eat a stem and a cap any day

Oops, not "in a club" per se, but at a show.

I was at a Tom Waits show at the Chicago theater in the 90s & it was all seated all the time except one dude in the front row to the side of the stage who got up and danced to "I Don't Wanna Grow Up" & security kept making him sit down, just pure childlike joy getting kneecapped by authoritarian bummer through the whole song.

The only song I’d stand up to at a Tom waits concert would be “what’s he building in there”

hahaha I covered that song live once! love it.

I remember being at a sold out Joanna Newsom show on the Ys tour (also one of the best shows I have ever seen), this debate broke out and she mentioned that the argument had happened at almost every gig on the tour, she had no opinion, and "you all just need to work it out" iirc - eventually they actually moved a stage monitor because the very small group of standing people had had their view blocked by it.

there is some broken/malware link in this thread but I do not have the energy/time to look for it at the moment

I would like to state that the worst audiences for concert etiquette are classical audiences filled with old people.

I saw a show in Millennium Park here once (I want to say She & Him?) that was super packed. I talked to a security guy, and said something like, wow, this crowd is weirdly nuts, isn't it? And he shook his head and said it was nothing compared to the classical crowds, when the CSO was playing.

The only song I’d stand up to at a Tom waits concert would be “what’s he building in there”

Pretty sure he did this at the same Chicago Theatre show! I don't remember anyone standing up for this one specifically, though.

smoking (cigarettes) seems to be a thing at shows recently. had to move at the Kim Gordon show last week because the smoke was too strong (and I don't feel I'm particularly sensitive, other folks were moving as well). and when performers light up on stage, you get people hooting approval (like, it's freedom, man). younger crowd doesn't remember how bad it used to suck going to shows in a cloud of smoke.

Where was this that you could smoke at a show?? and Kim or a band member were lighting up on stage?? I haven't seen a performer smoke on stage in many years (like probably close to 20).

cat power was puffin away a few months ago in LA

I've got a couple of good slightly older than me friends who are decidedly unhip, which makes them fun, because they are generally up for anything. Case in point, three of them came along with me to see Marc Ribot last night, despite having no idea who he is. (Which kind of reminded me of one time I dragged friends and their college roommates out to see John Zorn at the Knitting Factory in 1993). Anyway, one of the three didn't like the show, which is fine, so wandered off to the adjoining bar/club to watch a shitty band playing for free. The four of us convened there after the Ribot show, and maybe it was because I was at least 1 1/2 drinks behind the rest of them, I was just not feeling it, for reasons better suited to some "bad music" thread. Still, my friends were digging it, which, again, was fine. But at one point one of them - I'll call him "Ron" because that is his name - yelled out "Freebird"! I turned to him and just said, "why are you doing that? don't do that." And he looked at me with absolute innocence and assured me "no, it's OK, it's something people do at concerts!" And I said, yeah, I know, but they really shouldn't be doing it, let alone in 2024. And a second or two later someone in the back also yells out "Freebird!" and my friend Ron turns to me and says, "see, it's something people do!" And I said really, I get it, but it's been pretty played out for years. And Ron just shrugged and says "I don't know, I think it would be really funny if they played 'Freebird.'"