i don't think we'll ever know whether pitchfork is the chicken or the egg
― da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:14 (fourteen years ago) link
Again, it's not like many of the hyped indie bands we "passed" on-- sound team, cold war kids, voxtrot, anathallo, ghostland observatory, white denim, Someone Still Loves You Boris Yeltsin, birdmonster, for examples-- went anywhere in the long run did they?
Ppl have selective memories about pfork too! Like you guys regularly give 8s to bands like Oneida and Patrin-endorsed indie rappers and no one gives a flying fuck because it's not falling into a model of the worldwide Juno-styled hand-scribbled NPR indieverse that is actually bigger than pfork
i mean, look, i agree with you on most of your points re: filtering and having a bigger reach than coffee unaderachievers or whatevs, but this debate is about pitchfork's effect on the 696 critics who vote in p&j, and those voters are all definitely more PART of the feddback loop than PRODUCTS of the feedback loop
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:14 (fourteen years ago) link
the whole pfork thing is selective memory. like everyone "forgets" that the same day Dan Deacon's album got his glowing review on pfork, he was also the front page story on the NYT arts section
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:16 (fourteen years ago) link
And also, i can't say much for indie bands you didn't pass on like CYHSY and Tapes N Tapes actually going anywhere in the long run
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:17 (fourteen years ago) link
The Pitchfork argument is really, I think, just an Internet argument: the P&J voting community has a much faster and more amplified internal feedback loop today than it had 30 years ago. There are dozens of factors in this, from human editorial decisions to collaborative filtering, and the effect is futher amplified by the addition of voters for whom the web is their native media (both as writers and music-learners), who are collectively more active participants in these loops.
And so, necessarily, the "winners" chart is the least interesting thing about the P&J. The poll's real value is that it collects data that rewards exploration, either by just clicking around in it yourself, or by statistical correlation. More voters make the data more interesting, overall, but the "winners" less interesting.
The singles side suffers more subltly from the internet loop effects, or more precisely, from the addition of these loop effects to the old loop effects of radio in a pre-internet world. Effectively, in the old days, the album poll was freeform and the singles poll was constrained, with radio as the authoritative source of nominations. Radio still contributes, but it's no longer authoritative. Thus the "singles" side fragments and disperses. Absent some structural change, over the next few years I think we'll see it flatten out even more.
I don't think this is necessarily bad. One of the things I did in my data-analysis was an Artist chart (here), counting album-points as voted, and song-votes as 2 points each. This would really need some more data-work to dual-attribute all the X-ft-Y singles to X (and Y?), and maybe a rule-tweak (no more than two songs from a single album, would be my suggestion, just to keep people from boring point-loading on their favorite album), but this combined chart is already much more interesting than either current official chart, and turns the phenomenon of people voting for their favorite tracks from their favorite albums into a virtue, as you can now kind of see deeper into voters' experiences of those albums.
― glenn mcdonald, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:17 (fourteen years ago) link
I wonder what would happen, Glenn, if you eliminated the album-ballot-duplicating votes of anyone who votes for, say, three or more singles from albums they've also voted for, and then re-crunched the remaining singles numbers from there. If that makes any sense (which it probably doesn't).
― xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:22 (fourteen years ago) link
I really want to see that Artist chart, but I got a login thing from your link, and can't find it on the main All Idols page.
― some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:23 (fourteen years ago) link
but sometimes I think the whole of BKLYN has a pretty effed up perspective on this stuff
i mean, this is true too.
whenever i co home for xmas break, i go to the record store in my hometown I always ask how many records they sold. They never even ORDERED a copy of Animal Collective or Dirty Projectors. They sold one Gucci Mane on opening week.
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:29 (fourteen years ago) link
xp Or easier (though I'd never advocate this as a policy), what would happen if you just subtracted all album-duplicating singles votes in general. (Guessing that might hurt, say, DJ Quik and Kurupt's singles ratings as much as any indie band's -- might not help Taylor Swift's either -- but I'd still be curious how the results would shake out.)
― xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:30 (fourteen years ago) link
what if people just voted for singles
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:35 (fourteen years ago) link
De Stijl was a pretty big deal, indie-wise,
This isn't a great example to use, because the record came out in 2000, long before Pitchfork had nearly the kind of influence it does now. And aren't we trying to find examples of indie records that were not just popular in a particular scene but around which a widespread critical consensus developed? De Stijl only finished #229 in P&J.
― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:41 (fourteen years ago) link
I don't think that anyone's arguing that P4k doesn't provide a valuable service to the indie music-listening community, or that they aren't to some extent arbiters of taste within that sphere. They have a symbiotic relationship to that scene - both benefiting from its growing popularity and contributing to it. The music would exist without P4k or a similar site, but it wouldn't perhaps be as widely known or promoted outside the confines of that scene. Every scene needs some star acts to champion it, and P4k helps in the process of consensus formation around those stars. They don't dictate who the stars will be, but by generally listening to a lot of stuff and having taste that aligns pretty well with their audience, they are usually able to provide some filtering. So P4k may be a small contributing factor to indie domination of P&J, but I would argue that there are other more important factors, but it's difficult to discuss because "indie" is such an amorphous label.
― o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:42 (fourteen years ago) link
i was going to say "would you bitch if people voted for airplay-only push tracks from pop albums?" but then that's a pretty '90s phenomenon with no real place in iTunes culture. And, for the same reason - any indie push track with an official video is a single.
― da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:43 (fourteen years ago) link
btw PF "passing" on bands seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me -- once the site has made a big gesture of saying "this band sucks, don't believe the hype" or "they're not the kind of indie we like" or whatever, odds are slim that readers or staff are going to be following them much from thereon to even know if they end up improving or making a great record later on. there have been so many slow burn careers the last few years, from bands who just seemed to be plugging along for years and eventually got a big following (Of Montreal, Spoon, etc.) that it'll be interesting to see, 5 or 10 years from now, what bands can survive a quick-bursting blog/PF hype bubble and end up having a good long run and maybe winning back some of those media outlets (or finding different kinds of success).
― some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:43 (fourteen years ago) link
I wrote for Pitchfork in 2000, and everyone I knew IRL (if not on staff, since I didn't really know any of those folks at the time ) that listened to indie at the time was talking about De Stijl or telling me to check it out. it definitely felt weird at the time that PF didn't review it.
― some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:44 (fourteen years ago) link
https://pub.needlebase.com/actions/visualizer/V2Visualizer.do?domain=Pazz-Jop-2009&query=Combined+Artist+Chart
― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:45 (fourteen years ago) link
does anyone know how much a gap there is between # of readers, say, Stereogum, has and the # of reads P4k has?
― kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:48 (fourteen years ago) link
Or easier (though I'd never advocate this as a policy), what would happen if you just subtracted all album-duplicating singles votes in general
This would solve the laziness issue - you can either vote for the single or the album, but not both - but it would penalize acts who release a great album that also spawns a lot of great singles. Interesting trade-off, I guess. I don't know if there's a more gradualist remedy that would be equally effective. I think maybe that it would be best to fragment the poll. Forget the idea of overall best album & single, but have separate polls for "Best Indie Album", "Best Dance Single", "Best Radio Single", "Best Video", "Best Country Album", "Best Metal Album", etc. Let people vote in as many of the sub-polls as they want to.
― o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:48 (fourteen years ago) link
just trying to wrap my head around the relative significance (or lack thereof) of the more well-known sectors of the indie blogosphere and P4k
― kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:49 (fourteen years ago) link
@some dude: sometimes PFork recants though or hedges and revises.
Case in point: Fever to Tell got a sort of damning with half praise review when it initially came out, but later made top 50 of the decade. Discovery got an even worse review and was even higher later. See also Andrew W.K.
― hands off the brainbox you'll break it (penpen), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:49 (fourteen years ago) link
Okay, sure, Al -- PF should've reviewed De Stijl at the time. I'm still not sure what that has to do with what we're talking about, though. It's not just indie bands that are popular without Pitchfork. It's indie bands that are *critically* popular in *the last few years* without Pitchfork.
― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:55 (fourteen years ago) link
well, i was being pedantic about a smaller point made upthread, not the big picture debate here. PF were reviewing 4 albums a day then compared to 5 now, so it just seems odd to me that a band that had been touring w/ Pavement and Sleater-Kinney, as the White Stripes had at that point, got kinda slept on by the site.
― some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:56 (fourteen years ago) link
does anyone know how much a gap there is between # of readers, say, Stereogum, has and the # of reads P4k has?― kshighway (ksh), Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:48 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― kshighway (ksh), Thursday, January 21, 2010 11:48 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
it's actually chasmlike. pfork DOMINATES all over any sort of indie blog, so the sense of entitlement a lot of them have is extra lolleriffic
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:57 (fourteen years ago) link
though, stuff like Rolling Stone.com gets as much traffic as pitchfork on any given day. And the type of traffic that fuels shit like TMZ or Perez makes p4k look like it has the readers your little sister's myspace page
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 16:59 (fourteen years ago) link
damn your sister must be hot
― iatee, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:01 (fourteen years ago) link
Oh, sorry, here's the correct link to the Artist Chart. (jaymc caught this already)
There was only one 2009 ballot that had more than three songs by the same artist (Jimmy Draper's Lady Gaga fiesta), and only three others with 3, so the counts aren't being abused that way. But the album-overlap is pretty significant. Here's a new table comparing the total vote-count to the count excluding song/album overlap (technically speaking, excluding song-votes from ballots with an album by the same artist; I don't have actual track-listings to work with, so some of these might be non-album singles). As surmised, GAPDY suffer dramatically in this version. Jay-Z still wins, but Lady Gaga and Taylor Swift jump up to #2 and 3.
― glenn mcdonald, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:02 (fourteen years ago) link
This would solve the laziness issue - you can either vote for the single or the album, but not both - but it would penalize acts who release a great album that also spawns a lot of great singles.
Right, it would've cut into "Smells Like Teen Spirit" and "Billie Jean" and "When Doves Cry" and "Dancing In The Dark" and "Bring The Noise" etc. votes, which obviously makes no sense. I would actually advocate, though, a limit on the number of album-duplicating singles you can put on your ballot. Maybe two or three, tops. Beyond that, all your duplicating singles don't count. May actually mention this to Harvilla.
― xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:04 (fourteen years ago) link
something has to be done
― da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:05 (fourteen years ago) link
It would be nice if something was.
only one 2009 ballot that had more than three songs by the same artist
Well, that's not what I meant. I meant if you vote for three different singles off of three different albums you also voted for, not all off the same album. But I'll check that link when I have a chance.
― xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:06 (fourteen years ago) link
I lold
― I'm bored, I think I'll become a beatnik (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:09 (fourteen years ago) link
xpost
yeah, that totally makes sense Whiney. i know plenty of people who reach P4k but, say, zero who read GvB or whateverthefuck.
― kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:10 (fourteen years ago) link
Alexa rankings:
Rolling Stone: #2,457NME: #2,819Pitchfork: #2,903Resident Advisor: #9,208Stereogum: #10,162 Paste: #10,356 PopMatters: #12,153Brooklyn Vegan: #14,921Spin: #16,307
― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:11 (fourteen years ago) link
my mind is always blown at PopMatters traffic
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:15 (fourteen years ago) link
Here's a new table comparing the total vote-count to the count excluding song/album overlap
This table seems much improved. A single should be something that appeals to more people than those who like the whole album.
― o. nate, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:15 (fourteen years ago) link
xp Maybe b/c it's not just a music site but an all-purpose arts/culture/media site?
― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:16 (fourteen years ago) link
thanks for those rankings, jaymc! didn't realize there'd be such a disparity between Spin and Rolling Stone, tbh
also, most of the stuff I've read on PopMatters is really, really poorly written
― kshighway (ksh), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:17 (fourteen years ago) link
I was actually surprised at how low Spin.com was, too. Then again, I'm not sure who its target audience is anymore.
― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:19 (fourteen years ago) link
So, according to Glenn's chart there (assuming I'm understanding it right), these are the singles that drew fewer than half of their votes from people who didn't also vote for the album (or, if this is clearer, more than half of their votes from people who did vote for the album):
4 Phoenix · 1901 81 38 0.469 5 Grizzly Bear · Two Weeks 65 29 0.446 7 Yeah Yeah Yeahs · Zero 59 29 0.492 8 Dirty Projectors · Stillness Is the Move 64 28 0.438 12 Animal Collective · My Girls 76 23 0.303 48 Yeah Yeah Yeahs · Heads Will Roll 27 10 0.37 67 Animal Collective · What Would I Want? Sky 14 2 0.143
― xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:21 (fourteen years ago) link
why is this a problem again? because they're indie rock?
― iatee, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:25 (fourteen years ago) link
xhuxk, you're missing:
55 Girls · Hellhole Ratrace 17 8 0.47157 Neko Case · This Tornado Loves You 19 8 0.421
But otherwise, yeah.
― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:27 (fourteen years ago) link
No, it's just more boring when the albums and singles list overlap so much.
― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:28 (fourteen years ago) link
xp Yeah just noticed that! Oops, missed these two:
55 Girls · Hellhole Ratrace 17 8 0.471 57 Neko Case · This Tornado Loves You 19 8 0.421
These get exactly half of their support from album voters:
53 The xx · Crystalised 18 9 0.5 58 Raekwon (ft. Ghostface Killah, Inspectah Deck and Method Man) · House of Flying Daggers 16 8 0.5 60 Brad Paisley · Welcome to the Future 14 7 0.5 Singles that scored between 0.5 and 0.6: Girls "Lust For Life," Phoenix "Lisztomania," Bat For Lashes "Daniel," Maxwell "Pretty Wings," Avett Brothers "I And Love You," Pearl Jam "The Fixer," St. Vincent "Actor Out Of Work," Very Best (w Ezra Koenig) "Warm Heart Of Africa."
― xhuxk, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:28 (fourteen years ago) link
xp I think it's boring either way
― iatee, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:30 (fourteen years ago) link
albums and singles lists used to be different, though, a real demonstrable yin and yang. whether they wore boring, they were boring in different ways too.
― some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:32 (fourteen years ago) link
i guess those days are over?
― call all destroyer, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:33 (fourteen years ago) link
fucking internet ruined music this blows
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:34 (fourteen years ago) link
2009: the year indie broke pazz'n'jop
― da croupier, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:34 (fourteen years ago) link
but why should they be? P&J is one of the only major year-end lists that does singles-qua-singles, not just albums, not 'tracks,' and I think having that is valuable. (xpost)
― some dude, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:35 (fourteen years ago) link
i almost wonder if the pop critics are dying out because indie-critics have the DIY ethic where they're happy to do a review for $20
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:36 (fourteen years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbhjXVHFeXA
― Vajazzle My Nazzle (HI DERE), Thursday, 21 January 2010 17:36 (fourteen years ago) link