The Best Song on The-Dream's Love vs. Money

it's not that he didn't mention it, it's that he didn't factor it into his observations

it was a joke dude

i know. but canadian radio is government controlled lunacy.

i know. but canadian radio is government controlled lunacy.

^

here we don't have like "niche" radio because the governement only allows like 8 stations in ur area including the classical music one so the idea of hearing the dream on "urban" radio or whatever is pretty alien to me, i can only take my own opinion that anyone who loves that album enough to make it a year ender surely picked it up for the fancy/right side of my brain cos that's its real distinguishing feature imo but you know that is my partic perspective on the matter iunwim

xp: as if the US gvmt has the slightest modicum of control over public radio

afaik the FCC does not mandate us to listen to the US equivalent of the bare naked ladies or the tragically hip

the US gov't does not have to insist radio stations play american artists, it's true.

here we don't have like "niche" radio because the governement only allows like 8 stations in ur area including the classical music one so the idea of hearing the dream on "urban" radio or whatever is pretty alien to me, i can only take my own opinion that anyone who loves that album enough to make it a year ender surely picked it up for the fancy/right side of my brain cos that's its real distinguishing feature imo but you know that is my partic perspective on the matter iunwim

― plaxico (I know, right?), Monday, December 14, 2009 4:20 PM (27 minutes ago)

well i disagree that everyone who likes the album likes it for that four song suite or whatever, kind of a dumb assumption. "rockin that shit" is a no-brainer banger, no need to overthink shit

saying this as someone who has never heard a the-dream song on the radio

xp: as if the US gvmt has the slightest modicum of control over public radio

I get what you're saying, but don't tell me that Clear Channel isn't empowered by a lack of anti-monopoly laws, either. Government does have an effect, however subtle, on most every sector of business out there. Radio is no exception.

if you get what he's saying then i don't know why you'd continue to make a completely separate and irrelevant other point

here we don't have like "niche" radio because the governement only allows like 8 stations in ur area including the classical music one so the idea of hearing the dream on "urban" radio or whatever is pretty alien to me, i can only take my own opinion that anyone who loves that album enough to make it a year ender surely picked it up for the fancy/right side of my brain cos that's its real distinguishing feature imo but you know that is my partic perspective on the matter iunwim

― plaxico (I know, right?), Monday, December 14, 2009 4:20 PM (27 minutes ago)

well i disagree that everyone who likes the album likes it for that four song suite or whatever, kind of a dumb assumption. "rockin that shit" is a no-brainer banger, no need to overthink shit

― k3vin k., Monday, December 14, 2009 9:49 PM (35 minutes ago)

okay but i just meant that aspect of the album is what sets it apart to the insane-dream-lust degree among 4 example ilm fans afai can c and rockin that shit isn't really representational of that, and year end lists are all abt being representational

Probably worth noting that you can't really put "Fancy" or "Right Side Of My Brain" or either of the "Love vs Money" tracks on a mix-tape, for example (owing to the way they're mixed as a suite), so it's a lot harder to enjoy them in isolation. "Rockin' That Shit" feels more standalone, hence makes sense to talk about it as one of the tracks of the year. "Fancy" is more about the greatness of the album, or perhaps more specifically the greatness of its "side 2".

okay but i just meant that aspect of the album is what sets it apart to the insane-dream-lust degree among 4 example ilm fans afai can c and rockin that shit isn't really representational of that, and year end lists are all abt being representational

― plaxico (I know, right?), Monday, December 14, 2009 5:28 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah but year end lists that are voted on by a staff of dozens of people are more likely to represent what all or most of those people have heard, like say a huge hit single, rather than a deep cut from its parent album that may not even score especially high on its album lists

yeah ok but i don't really reckon most of those ppl r listening to urban radio, and are instead getting their info via similar outlets to me, where the popular opinion is that its all abt side two but obviously this is all assumption but u have to admit it is fairly convincing as a story admit it

is there really such a strong consensus though? in this thread side one got 17 votes and side two got 22 votes, which isn't any kind of staggering margin.

wow my iTunes play count is much higher for side 1

best-dream single this year was "my love" easily

but yeah i don't get why a) if you loved the singles you wouldn't check out the album b) if you'd heard the album why you wouldn't choose "fancy" as the track to pick - def seems that that's the one that opinion's coalesced around

also didn't "rockin' that shit" come out way before 2008 ended?

Yeah, I guess Lex has elucidated my point in a far more logical and clear way. And if it were Rolling Stone, or something, I wouldn't be shocked with the big single placing, but the way Pitchfork's poll has always SEEMED to operate, especially with regards to albums/songs/genres outside of its "indie" centre has been via individual writers repping hard for albums/tracks and converting other writers who don't specialize in those genres. Similar to how I'm more likely to hear and thus rep for funky tracks favoured by Lex or Tim or others who have an in depth knowledge of UK Funky (even if they aren't the big hits). Or how I'm more likely to give the time of day to Gucci tracks that deej or j0rdan suggest.

Given that the people contributing to the P4K lists are, like us, a bunch of obscurantist music nerds. And given (not a HUGE assumption) that many P4K contributors wouldn't have given Terius or Electrik Red or whoever the time of day without SOMEONE strongly advocating for it, the end result being "Rockin' That Shit" seemed counter to my perception of the response to the album by the critical bandwagon. (I mean, it's not like they voted for Walkin' on the Moon, but nonetheless...)

And again, I think it's clear that my assumptions are way off. Scott P. said something in another thread about how deej's nomination of a second Gucci track split votes and led to Wasted being lower down the list (possibly because most non-specialists aren't/weren't willing to throw on two Gucci tracks in their top 25/50/whatever). So it's possible that something like that happened - a vote split between the big single and an album track that a Terius-fan on staff nominated, or maybe some dude is 100% right, and my ignorance of the various Billboard charts led me to have totally faulty expectations.

Anyway, my stupidity has resulted in a big kerfuffle over nothing, so let's just move on, shall we?

b) if you'd heard the album why you wouldn't choose "fancy" as the track to pick - def seems that that's the one that opinion's coalesced around

not to put down "fancy," but as great as it is, like are you really saying this six-minute long dream pop ballad near the end of an rn'b album is the obvious choice for a bunch of mostly indie-minded critics?

Actually, yeah. Given that the values that tend to be favoured by indie-minded critics tend to be experimentation, arrangement, non-standard song structure, etc. etc. 'Fancy' is exactly the song I would recommend to indie-minded critics in an attempt to sell them on The-Dream. Not run-of-the-mill R&B - but ambitious, musically intricate and starkly different from most things out there.

It the song that (on its own) most effectively lets you stake the claim for The-Dream as musical innovator. Ideally I'd throw on the self-referential song-suite that is Side B, but in a pinch, "Fancy" would probably do. It's worked, too.

("Indie-minded critic" is a category I include myself in, tbh.)

that should be true, but uh is there any precedent for that happening with pop and rn'b? electing a deep cut from a pop album rather than the single, i mean.

"fancy" isn't necessarily what i'd have picked to win over critics when i first heard LvM, but empirical evidence suggests it's the one that seems to have worked...

as great as "rockin' that shit" is, it's not the kind of standalone single that screams "pick me!" to non-r&b oriented critics.

and year end lists are all abt being representational

― plaxico (I know, right?), Monday, December 14, 2009 5:28 PM (2 hours ago)

not to pick on you here but, uh, since when are end-of-year tracks lists supposed to be representational of their albums?

i guess i just don't think of LvM as a pop album, really - coloured by near-total lack of UK success obv

b) if you'd heard the album why you wouldn't choose "fancy" as the track to pick - def seems that that's the one that opinion's coalesced around

not to put down "fancy," but as great as it is, like are you really saying this six-minute long dream pop ballad near the end of an rn'b album is the obvious choice for a bunch of mostly indie-minded critics?

― taoiseachizown (samosa gibreel), Monday, December 14, 2009 7:55 PM (13 minutes ago)

i agree with this b/c 1) who cares about what kinds of critics like what kinds stuff and 2) when you make up traxx lists you shouldnt be thinking "hmm okay so i need a track from [this album i love], which one on this album should it be?" it should be obvious to you; i prob won't have a dream or e red song in my top 20 but if i do it'll be "rockin that shit" because that's the one i play the most, both in and out of album context, not because i think it sums up the album or whatever

same kind of "which album summed up the decade" dumb writerly/narrative shit ppl always fall into, mad annoying

I think the fact that 90% of "Fancy" is a gentle R&B ballad would actually play against it being the "indie" pick. I think it's more the kind of track that tends to wow people who listen to a fair amount of R&B already.

it codes as a "different" sort of ballad though - the kind of consciously ambitious thing which might well appeal to non-r&b ears (the ballads that get dismissed are much more ostensibly generic, not to say melismatic, than "fancy" is at any point)

the part you guys are missing is that there's prolly no R&B album, even a critic/indie-friendly one like The-Dream, that PF would put a deep cut from on their tracks list. it's not like their Beyonce picks or w/e aren't singles too. even w/ rap albums it might be a Clipse or Lil Wayne deep cut but everything else is singles.

anyway i REALLY object to the idea that "Fancy" is universally agreed upon as the best song from this album, since again it didn't win this poll, and it's not even in the top half for me.

some dude otm, though I adore "fancy" and it's in the top 3 for me most days

also didn't "rockin' that shit" come out way before 2008 ended?

well, it leaked in December '08, didn't really pick up any airplay until '09

'rockin that shit' is dope & imo looking for 'fancy' would be like me expecting, i dunno, 'my shadow' to be gucci's token critic pick this year -- an excellent choice (in fact i was debating whether or not to vote 'fancy' as a single & decided not to bcuz i was voting for the album & that gave me another spot for other singles) but one that wasnt likely to get much support outside of the album's superfans

keep in mind that even w/ kells, most indie fans just new 'ignition' & werent really listening to chocolate factory

well said, and it's worth noting that p4k, for example, employs maybe 2 "superfans" of dream so expecting a deep cut is kinda unreasonable. but w/ something like animal collective or whatever, they've got like 20 die hard fans writing for that site, which is why there'll prob be 3 mpp songs in the top 10

x-post
^^^ I think I failed to push The-Dream tracks as tracks for the same reason. This always happens with the Pitchfork list - I end up not voting for tracks where I loved the album, and then when i vote on the short list suddenly I'm putting those tracks in at like No .2, No. 3 spots.

tbh this is why I don't really like the "tracks" thing and always make singles lists, for P&J or whatever -- a straight list of my favorite songs of the year would be so redundant with my albums list and would feature so many tracks by the same people over and over that I'd rather just stick to singles as a medium in and of itself.

anyway i REALLY object to the idea that "Fancy" is universally agreed upon as the best song from this album, since again it didn't win this poll, and it's not even in the top half for me.

― some dude, Monday, December 14, 2009 8:46 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

the album is too well-rounded to bicker about a consensus standout track anyways.

xp: as if the US gvmt has the slightest modicum of control over public radio

I get what you're saying, but don't tell me that Clear Channel isn't empowered by a lack of anti-monopoly laws, either. Government does have an effect, however subtle, on most every sector of business out there. Radio is no exception.

― I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Monday, December 14, 2009 2:06 PM Bookmark

that was supposed to say "private radio". oops.

and year end lists are all abt being representational

― plaxico (I know, right?), Monday, December 14, 2009 5:28 PM (2 hours ago)

not to pick on you here but, uh, since when are end-of-year tracks lists supposed to be representational of their albums?

― k3vin k., Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:08 AM (5 hours ago)

nah, by representational I meant that, you know with pitchfork they want a list that shows off the full extent of their aesthetic, their ecectecism and weird wildcards that show how they can look outside their standard field of focus to find things that complement or offset their musical landscape

I suspect you're drawing a bit of a bow from pitchfork's historical love of remixes - but the thing with remixes is that, esp. for the period 2004-2006, when it came to dance music non-dance fans were much more likely to be into remixes of things than they were to be into original dance music tracks.

Pitchfork has never particularly celebrated R&B or hip hop non-singles in its end of year polls - non-single rap tracks that did well have almost always been radio hits at the very least.

looking for 'fancy' would be like me expecting, i dunno, 'my shadow' to be gucci's token critic pick this year

tbh "my shadow" is definitely the standout gucci track of 09 for me, and of everything he released probably has the most critical catnip

for some reason i didn't realise we were talking about the pfork list last night, so all i have to say now is "fuck it, who cares".

non-single rap tracks that did well have almost always been radio hits at the very least.

that's not entirely true, as i alluded to before, stuff like "Georgia Bush" and random Clipse mixtape tracks weren't radio hits. but yeah generally those are the exceptions that prove the rule.

tbh "my shadow" is definitely the standout gucci track of 09 for me, and of everything he released probably has the most critical catnip

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:44 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

my personal experience suggests otherwise, which surprised me -- i had assumed it would be a big deal

which one did you find worked instead?

haha 'wasted' obv

IS HE ANY GOOD FROM THE BACK?