Linn LM-1 or DMX drum machine in 777-9311 by Morris Day and the Time

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There has been this sorta little controversy regarding what drum machine was
used in Morris Day and Time's 777-9311. People keep saying it was the linn
LM-1 but i know for a fact it was an Oberheim DMX drum machine. The clap for
example is a trademark oberheim clap. Also that the Linn LM-1 didn't have a
cymbal crash sound because roger linn said it was too expensive to put the
sound on it. Can anyone clear this up.

The Startrekman, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 05:58 (thirteen years ago) link

wiki says the cymbals were played live

nicky lo-fi, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 06:18 (thirteen years ago) link

plus PRINCE loved the LM-1 so much, and he played and recorded the music

nicky lo-fi, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 06:30 (thirteen years ago) link

To my knowledge, the only producer using the DMX in the US Black music market before 1985 was Davy DMX between 1983 and 1985 as the sideman to Larry "Larr" Smith (specifically in Run-DMC's first singles and two albums).

The Linndrum (LM-1 and successors) was THE machine until Arthur Baker decided Planet Rock should use an 808 in 1982, but it took months (in some cases, years) before Rap labels began listening to artists and investing in 808 use.

1985 was the big boom of drum machines in Black music stateside. By 1986, changing machines throughout an album was standrad, and by late 87, the SP1200 sampler came and wiped the slate clean for 1988.

So based not just on the sound, but this idea, Linndrum for this track.

As for the sound, the DMX has an INCREDIBLY stiff sequencer and HUGE drum sounds, so it's rather unmistakable (Beat Box by Art of Noise, King Kut by Word of Mouth, aside from the early pore-Rubin DMC stuff).

I don't doubt that they overdubbed live drums though. Much of that sounds true.

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Tuesday, 18 November 2008 06:38 (thirteen years ago) link

I realize I shifted the talk to rap, but that's kinda how it went in all American Black music at that time. Prince brought the drum machine idea, Planet Rock snatched it to mimic Kraftwerk, it became a Rap staple, then R&B followed Rap's lead on drum machines for a while.

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Tuesday, 18 November 2008 06:42 (thirteen years ago) link

But then again Startrekman, I've been wrong comparing these machines before, so today wouldn't be the first. But that clap is not the tell-tale sound to me. The snares and kicks of those two mcahines are world's apart.

And live overdubbed drums is the key here.

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Tuesday, 18 November 2008 06:45 (thirteen years ago) link

R&B WAS using the DMX before 1984, The Linn LM-1 was a HIGHLY expensive piece of drum machine technology. The Linn LM-1 was owned by people who were something (Prince, Human League, Stevie Wonder) The DMX was the "poor man's Linn" at the time because it was more affordable and actually more widely available.

For DMX drum machine rhythm backing R&B songs before 1984, listen to:

Anything by the producer Kashif (Who produced songs for Evelyn Champagne King that would include "Love Come Down and Betcha She Don't love you.)

Anything Produced by Rick James after 1982 ( Including any song by the Mary Jane Girls like candyman and hurting on the inside.)

Cheryl Lynn-Encore: It uses a DMX in it's backing rhythm

Gladys Knight and the Pips Visions of Love Album (When your far away, You're number one in my book and Save the overtime for me.)

The Startrekman, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 07:24 (thirteen years ago) link

Haven't we had this one before? I think we decided that Prince's drum machine of choice (and the one that produces that trademark clap) was the Sequential Tom.

harveyw, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 10:52 (thirteen years ago) link

The kick definitely sounds like the Linn to me. The DMX kick sound has a different quality to it. The clap could easily be the Linn LM-1. I have sound files for both machines and by tuning the clap sound of the Linn (this was possible on the original machine) it is quite easy to make it sound more or less the same as the DMX one. That's just tuning. EQ-ing the sounds provides further scope for changing how they are perceived.

Startrekman is right that the DMX was well established in US r&b before 1984. It was much less popular in Europe. I think that has to do with Oberheim as a company because Oberheim synthesizers were less unpopular in Europe than others (eg Roland and Sequential Circuits).

In 1982 I used a TR-808 to make 'That's When We'll Be Free' (State of Grace). I had used it on a demo made at the home studio of an acquaintance. When we came to make the record we hired a TR-808 to replicate the sound we'd achieved on the demo. Come 1983, we decided we wanted the more 'real drum' sound so, although we had again demo-ed the next single ('Touching the Times') using the TR-808, we hired a Linn LM-1. 1983 was definitely the year that a lot of funk and soul started going over to drum machine.

dubmill, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 11:56 (thirteen years ago) link

Oberheim gear was fantastically expensive in Europe/UK in the eighties. It was very rare to see it in shops.

Pashmina, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 12:28 (thirteen years ago) link

Prince used a really modified version of the regular LM-1. He showed it off in Keyboard I believe in a '99 issue. He has knobs and switches on the sides.

777-9311 is probably the best of them all, second is Ballad Of Dorothy...on 777, it's really trick to figure out how the roll was done. The Linn is really dry and probably just eq'd a tad. On Dorothy, the Linn is also really dry.

vs.

Just so everyone knows, it is a common mistake that Prince used ONLY the Linn Drum and LM-1. This is untrue. He also used a Oberheim DMX drum machine.
Actually he used it more than people think. And I will go out on a limb to say he used the DMX on the particular songs the original poster was asking about.

It actually came out before the Linn Drum, and it has very famous (signature) feels to is sequence rhythm grooves, of which Prince used alot.

Like the Linn Drum(s) it used samples of real accoustic drums and percussion.
But its sequencer in certain groove choices is what gave you that signature "Prince" feel....

Crazy too, because it is a hell of alot cheaper than a Linn. But that is because it is a more "hidden" gem not many know about or care to know about because their friends didn't tell them about it, so it "ain't cool man" -- LOL -

Go figure

eman, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 14:12 (thirteen years ago) link

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/images/smilies/good/bouncy.gif

eman, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 14:13 (thirteen years ago) link

Beat Box by Art of Noise

Lots of thoughts on this subject, but that wasn't a DMX -- it was a Fairlight using drum sounds by Alan White of Yes, who AoN were doing sessions with at that moment (90125).

The One, The Only... (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, 18 November 2008 14:44 (thirteen years ago) link

Yes, that's right. And it sounds nothing like a DMX actually, well certainly the snare doesn't.

dubmill, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 14:54 (thirteen years ago) link

did the linns use the same style EPROMS as the DMX and Sequential Drum Trax? That could cause a lot of confusion as people were switching sound chips around, or making their own with the Oberheim Prommer.

dan selzer, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 17:53 (thirteen years ago) link

this beat is so sick. i don't know a lot about drum machines but i've always wondered how he got the hi-hats to sound so naturalistic compared to a lot of sequenced stuff at the time (and he must have been doing the same thing on that one lovesexy track, "dance on" i think).

some know what you dude last summer (Jordan), Tuesday, 18 November 2008 18:09 (thirteen years ago) link

Oberheim gear was fantastically expensive in Europe/UK in the eighties. It was very rare to see it in shops.

In the original Keyfax book, Julian Colbeck wrote: "When the OB-Xa came out in early 1981, the pound was worth nearly $2.50. It was a good time to buy American instruments..."
I guess you had to choose your moment!

Former Golden Boy, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 21:08 (thirteen years ago) link

'81 is a little before my time, I got into synths and electronic music in 82-83. I do remember the exchange rate being briefly favourable and the local music store getting in an OB-8. People were queueing up to play it. It was awesome.

Pashmina, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 21:23 (thirteen years ago) link

Just listened to this song with my LM-1 samples at hand -- this is LM-1 for sure.

The One, The Only... (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 03:35 (thirteen years ago) link

I should know better...

In short, yes, this was the Linn. Any debate is contrived.

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 03:48 (thirteen years ago) link

Anything by the producer Kashif (Who produced songs for Evelyn Champagne King that would include "Love Come Down and Betcha She Don't love you.)

Startrekman, if you're seriously arguing that Love Come Down is using a DMX, your ears are eternally fucked.

The Linn LM-1 was a HIGHLY expensive piece of drum machine technology. The Linn LM-1 was owned by people who were something (Prince, Human League, Stevie Wonder)

Unbelievable. Dude, Sugar Hill Records could ONLY afford a Linndrum. Fucking 4-Sight Records in Ft. Lauderdale admitted to me THEY COULD ONLY AFFORD A LINNDRUM. Melle Mel is on record saying Sugar Hill was broke as a joke and fucked his career cause they could ONLY AFFRORD A LINNDRUM while the industry had turned to the 808. 4-Sight had to hire DXJ (Maggotron) solely to borrow his 808 because when they were running out of a Mall record store's backroom, they only thing they owned was a Linndrum, to which by late 1984, they said "was only good for doing demos on at that point because it was cheap".

And DXJ said he discovered drum machines purely by chance, after KC (of the Sunshine Band) had lost his deal, was between labels, and renting out his studio to whomever. DXJ recorded a demo there when drum machines weren't the norm yet (late 81/early 82) and saw the Linndrum there, unused. DXJ never got to use KC's Linn. However, when DXJ DID release his first record (Ose' - Computer Funk), a "hired gun" was brought in to do the beat with his personal machine. That gun was Amos Larkins, who at that time wasn't a producer, just a session bassist who happened to own a Linndrum.

Don't confuse 1979 LM-1 with the ubiquity of the Linndrum in the early 80s.

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 04:07 (thirteen years ago) link

Anything Produced by Rick James after 1982 ( Including any song by the Mary Jane Girls like candyman and hurting on the inside.)

Candy Man is a Linndrum.

Rick James Cold Blooded (1983) is ALL 808.

Where are you getting this stuff?

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 04:14 (thirteen years ago) link

eman totally otm, btw

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 04:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Beat Box by Art of Noise

Lots of thoughts on this subject, but that wasn't a DMX -- it was a Fairlight using drum sounds by Alan White of Yes, who AoN were doing sessions with at that moment (90125).

― The One, The Only... (Naive Teen Idol), Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:44 AM (13 hours ago) Bookmark

The Fairlight is prominent on this song. As prominent as the DMX drums. As prominent as the DMX's sequencer.

These two pieces of gear define this song.

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 04:26 (thirteen years ago) link

What are you arguing the DMX did? The Fairlight has its own sequencer...

The One, The Only... (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 04:29 (thirteen years ago) link

This song is pre-midi.

They generally set smpte and clik trax of something else during this era for everything to follow.

Clearly this song is following the DMX's sequencer. That thing is RIGID.

The only sequencer to come close to the DMX's rigidity is the SP1200 in 1987, and to a much lesser degree, the 909 in 1985 (yeah, invented in 84, but rose to fame om records in 85).

We can nerd out all day. That shit is a DMX.

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 04:35 (thirteen years ago) link

http://homepage.mac.com/sbooneaz/iblog/C1809479898/E20051025200608/Media/dmx.jpg

eman, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 04:43 (thirteen years ago) link

My point is, during this time, it wasn't like they just used multiple sequencers, dropped it all to tape, and HOPED it matched. Sequencers weren't that fine tuned then. That was the point of smpte and click tracks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMPTE_time_code
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_track

I know this is common knowledge, but seemingly overlooked here. During the days of tape, you recorded the drums first, then rewound the tape, and added upon. smpte was generally set based on that first recording: the drums.

It always sound to me that art of noise was playing the fairlight, but I'm not going out on a limb to say that here. I AM going out on a solid limb to say once you feel the dmx sequencer, you know it eternally.

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 04:48 (thirteen years ago) link

more google cachery

http://www.whitwell.ndo.co.uk/musicthing/html/prince.htm

eman, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 05:15 (thirteen years ago) link

The thing about When Doves Cry is he admittedly wanted to copy Run-DMC...but DMC was using a DMX, and Prince was not.

I always find it odd that Kiss uses a Linndrum and became a hit in 1986, ling after the machine had nearly evaporated everywhere else!

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 05:22 (thirteen years ago) link

ling-ling

Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 05:30 (thirteen years ago) link

haha i thought the same thing

thereminimum chips (electricsound), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 05:32 (thirteen years ago) link

That thing is RIGID

What exactly do you mean by this? Assuming a pattern is quantized to 16ths how significantly different would it sound if it was programmed into a DMX vs the Fairlight. I'm not talking about the sounds but the timing. I accept there might be some difference but I suspect this is overstated, although I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

dubmill, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 06:08 (thirteen years ago) link

Anything by the producer Kashif (Who produced songs for Evelyn Champagne King that would include "Love Come Down and Betcha She Don't love you.)

Startrekman, if you're seriously arguing that Love Come Down is using a DMX, your ears are eternally fucked.

Dude, i don't know what quality of stereo you are using but Love Come Down does in deed use a DMX. Kashif started using it in "I'm in love" By Evelyn Chamgagne King ( Only it was used as a guide by a drummer and not as the main backing drum) Kashif was using the DMX in his own self titled album as well. As i said the LM-1 was prohibitely expensive and the DMX provided an alternative.

Candy Man is a Linndrum.

Rick James Cold Blooded (1983) is ALL 808.

Where are you getting this stuff?

Mistake on cold blooded

However, Mary Jane Giels album with candyman used exclusevly DMX. It was released in 1982 at the same time the linnDrum was being release so ain't no way in hell it could have used a LinnDrum

Two Rick James songs that used the DMX...

Seventeen
Ghetto Life

some more if i can think of 'em

The Startrekman, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 08:13 (thirteen years ago) link

You've proved me wrong enough to my liking, so I'll concede.

Chaud de poper le wheelie au démarrage (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 08:14 (thirteen years ago) link

(although, to clarify my earlier posts, I, much like other rap artists of the period, use the term Linndrum to mean the LM-1, the Linndrum proper, and Linn 9000, as alluded to in my initial post)

Chaud de poper le wheelie au démarrage (PappaWheelie V), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 08:33 (thirteen years ago) link

Ok, Trevor Horn via Sound On Sound:

"It was an amazing time because it was all exploding. Just as the McLaren thing came to an end, Page R arrived on the Fairight. And that was gobsmacking because that was the first time you heard those sort of sounds sequenced. And that's where the Art Of Noise came from. We were in a very lucky position because when Page R arrived I was doing Yes. So I had Alan White's drums and it was Alan White's drums that became [Art Of Noise's debut single] 'Beat Box'.

"One of the big things at the end of the Yes album [1983's 90125] was that this gizmo came along called the Conductor. It was a device that allowed you to connect a Linn drum machine to Page R. And that might seem like a minor detail now but, boy, that was breathtaking for us back then, because it meant you could lock a Linn drum machine to Page R! And all of the early Art Of Noise stuff was locking things to Page R. The very first thing was 'Beat Box' and it came from JJ Jeczalik messing around with Alan White's drums while I was working on 90125. I brought the Fairlight into 90125 for all that stuff on 'Owner Of A Lonely Heart'. We did use the Synclavier also at the time, but all of that 'da, ba ba ba' and all that stuff — that was the Fairlight. So JJ was screwing around in the back room and I remember him playing me that 'Beat Box' drum loop and I said 'Jees, that's fantastic, they'll love that in New York.'

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar05/articles/trevorhorn.htm

The One, The Only... (Naive Teen Idol), Wednesday, 19 November 2008 12:49 (thirteen years ago) link

Some fine science being dropped here.

Former Golden Boy, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 18:51 (thirteen years ago) link

4-Sight had to hire DXJ (Maggotron) solely to borrow his 808 because when they were running out of a Mall record store's backroom, they only thing they owned was a Linndrum, to which by late 1984, they said "was only good for doing demos on at that point because it was cheap".

IF the only thing that the LinnDrum was good for was demos, why was it VERY popular among TOP producers and MAJOR stars?? The LinnDrum was used by for example Sting, Howard Jones and many others?

The Startrekman, Thursday, 20 November 2008 05:43 (thirteen years ago) link

The thing is, it (the Linndrum) became TOO popular. For a while it was THE machine to use, but I remember at the time getting sick of the sounds. You get sick of anything if it's the only thing you hear all the time. I remember hearing that Linn snare and kick all the time, and the snare, in particular, has a dull, thwacking, cardboardy quality that I started to fixate on and really dislike. In 1984 I used the Movement Drum Computer, and just for that reason - to have a DIFFERENT sound. We didn't want to use the Linn again and our engineer said, oh there's this new machine that's come out and not many people are using it, so we decided to use that. BUT, we wanted to use some percussion sounds off the TR-808 (again we'd demo-ed the song - 'Hello Wintertime' - with the 808) and we had nightmares trying to sync the two machines up. I can't remember how we did it in the end but we spent the best part of a day trying to get them playing in sync (or maybe what we tried in the end was re-programming the 808 patterns on the Movement and getting it to trigger the 808 sounds, via whatever cv/gate (pre-MIDI) interface there was). I know we spent all day on it and we were on a limited budget so it was a nightmare.

Later that year a few other machines started to be released (EMU Drumulator, Sequential Drumtraks, Yamaha RX11 etc.), then a few years down the line it became routine to sample any sound you wanted which was a great step forward, at least in a way. I say 'in a way' because sometimes it's better to have limited choice and just use what there is rather than being tyrannized by the sense of limitless choice all the time.

dubmill, Thursday, 20 November 2008 06:06 (thirteen years ago) link

― Lasers of the New School (PappaWheelie V)

Suggested alteration for future Startrekman threads: Lasers Phasers of the New School

Myonga Vön Bontee, Thursday, 20 November 2008 07:51 (thirteen years ago) link

you can set your phaser on Stun, Kill, Destroy, Vaporise and Tear-That-Muthafucka-Up.

The Startrekman, Thursday, 20 November 2008 07:53 (thirteen years ago) link

<3 gear nerdery

afrofuturist philosopher (The Reverend), Thursday, 20 November 2008 08:51 (thirteen years ago) link

(not being snarky, btw)

afrofuturist philosopher (The Reverend), Thursday, 20 November 2008 08:51 (thirteen years ago) link

Dubmill, are you talking about the LinnDrum (the LM-2) or the LM-1?

What Goes Up... (Naive Teen Idol), Thursday, 20 November 2008 17:41 (thirteen years ago) link

tyrannized by the sense of limitless choice all the time.

^^^

some know what you dude last summer (Jordan), Thursday, 20 November 2008 17:49 (thirteen years ago) link

are you talking about the LinnDrum (the LM-2) or the LM-1?

I'm talking about both, really. The LinnDrum was manufactured in much larger numbers, was a lot cheaper, and consequently much more widely used, but the sounds were the same as far as I'm aware (although I note that the sampling rate was slightly higher on the LinnDrum, theoretically giving the sounds a bit more top end). Certainly THAT snare is common to both. It's the ubiquity of it that got on one's nerves. For a while it was almost like EVERY record had the same drum sounds on it.

I like the Linn snare sound now because it has a period charm and is also a pleasing antidote to both the tinny, high pitched, ringing 'rock kit' snares, and the dirty-sounding, sampled (or sample style) hip hop snares (both of which types have been done to death over the last ten years or so).

dubmill, Thursday, 20 November 2008 19:58 (thirteen years ago) link

i <3 this thread too

6335, Thursday, 20 November 2008 20:48 (thirteen years ago) link

IF the only thing that the LinnDrum was good for was demos, why was it VERY popular among TOP producers and MAJOR stars?? The LinnDrum was used by for example Sting, Howard Jones and many others?

TIMELINE

In 1979/1980, the Linn (LM-1 in this case, but whatever, the Linn) was THE hot new gear.

By 1984, it was passe, in part due to the popularity of the 808, and shortly after, the DMX.

This has always been my point on that issue.


JayQuan : I always felt that Run Dmc was able to take off based on the fact that Furious 5 was in a drought ; and because they rapped over stripped down beats ; like what you did in the parks and clubs . Do you agree ?

Melle Mel : Yes...while we were caught up in all that legal stuff a lot of groups moved in . It was the right time for them...they came right in time for Mtv and that crowd....we missed all that .Sugarhill wasn't into doing videos . They were a company from the 60s , and they were still operating like Motown....They were still using the old Linn drum and the Sugarhill band while other labels had Scratching and drum machines in their songs . After our split neither faction was the same . Even after we got back together it wasn't the same.

If I truly do concede on anything, it's that the DMX became used in the US before 1984/1985 outside of Davy DMX (the kinda obscure Just Four's "Games of Life" springs to mind), but became highly visible after Davy's use on Run-DMC's singles in 1983 (so I'm not saying I'm sitting around listening to Rick James's catalog trying to prove he didn't use it, but rather, he was in the margins if so):

http://www.discogs.com/release/257372
http://www.discogs.com/release/85048

Davy is uncredited on the labels, but Larry Smith admits it was Davy in a phone interview floating around.

But I stand by the fact that Love Come Down and 777-9311 are not the DMX.

We're being silly by not offering concrete examples of these sounds/timings.

The big DMX drums and tight sequencer:

Run Dmc - Sucker mc's (US, 1983)

Davy DMX - One for the Treble (US, 1984)

Kurtis Blow - AJ Scratch (US, 1984)

Word of Mouth - King Kut (US, 1985)

The System - Don't Disturb This Groove (US, 1987)

And yeah, Art of Noise's Beat Box remains evident (UK, 1983):

(why would they call the song BEATBOX if it was all keyboard driven???)

Trevor Horn's words above I'm sure are true in nearly all other instances, as shown in Moments in Love (because clearly that is not the DMX):

And there ain't NO WAY this is the DMX:
Evelyn "Champagne" KIng - Love come down (US, 1982)

(although I would wonder if it's similar to 777-9311, with live drums overdubbed to the machine)

The Linn Drum's (as Dubmill effectively said) cardboard sounds and less rigid sequencer:
[sadly, no prince videos are on youtube that I can find, but 1980's Dirty Mind is the origin]

Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - The Message (US, 1982)

FAB 5 FREDDY - CHANGE THE BEAT (US, 1982)

Grandmaster Flash - Scorpio (US, 1983)

I realize my know-it-all attitude on this issue makes me a target, and yeah, shoot all day long, but the intial quesiton and a handful of subsequent points are just contrarian at best. These sounds are obvious. The timeline is not airtight, but scales aren't generally tipped in one sitting...so the more popular things become, the less popular other things become with time.

In American Black music:

The Linndrum (LM-1, whatever) became popular after Prince's Dirty Mind hit. Really true for drum machines in general within Black music...

The 808 became popular after Planet Rock hit in mid-82, sparking drum machines in Rap.

The DMX gained fame AFTER Davy's use on Run-DMC, killing the Linn's popularity, and threatening the 808's popularity.

1984/1985 released/popularized the 909, creating a varied playing field.

This is all I've ever said here.

be much inadequate one! (PappaWheelie V), Thursday, 20 November 2008 21:40 (thirteen years ago) link

okay, maybe "dance on" isn't sequenced, that's harder to tell because the sounds are so live.

?uestlove weighs in on 777-9311 being sequenced: http://board.okayplayer.com/okp.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=1694985&mesg_id=1694985&page=2#1695120

some know what you dude last summer (Jordan), Thursday, 20 November 2008 23:42 (thirteen years ago) link

"all that was programed"
In response to Reply # 0
Sat May-17-08 02:02 PM by qoolquest

cept the snare---which was done "lady cab driver" style by hands (this is morris' recollection as told to me the night of the grammies the night before dil passed)

you can easily tell this in 3 distinctive spots.

at 5:13 there is a drum roll (listening to this now...im amazed at how low the snare is mixed)

6:11 there is another roll of the snare on the turnaround in the bridge

and at 7:48 prince stops playing the snare altogether.

when i was 11 (when this came out) THIS was the song that made prince my OG dilla.

and thinking that human hands did this altogether....i spent the entire year getting this down (even taped my china cymbal to sound like a clap)---

then a year later....i was told it was programmed.)

i was mad!

but i still mastered it.

(the same rule applies to "something in the water does not compute" on 1999.

my arms couldn't have gotten stronger if i had discovered my uncles hidden del rio stash at my grandma's house

some know what you dude last summer (Jordan), Thursday, 20 November 2008 23:44 (thirteen years ago) link

i'm not sure i agree with him about the snare being live (sounds more like sequenced fills to me) though, but it's plausible

some know what you dude last summer (Jordan), Thursday, 20 November 2008 23:46 (thirteen years ago) link

The hihats on the Morris Day & the Time record are not live, to my ears. Programmed, with clever interplay of closed and open hihat to convey emphasis and crescendos, and a lot of 32nd quantize.

dubmill, Thursday, 20 November 2008 23:48 (thirteen years ago) link

I still insist that you are so fixated on what you consider to be the importance of these things that you are blinding yourself to all kinds of other factors - like how a sound is eq-ed, mixed, effected and so on, and what's going on over the top of it. For example, as I mentioned with regard to the Evelyn King record, the live hihats, cymbals and claps skew one's perception of the kick and snare.

I failed to say how much I agree with you on this point. I never write this stuff off in its entirity, by now means. But no, the feel of a sequencer is not some thing I alone fixate on. It is a large part of the equation to the initial (and many subsequent) question(s). I think a more effective card to play against me is the "swing" effect that can be set to confuse things further. But when it's left untouched, it remains obvious in songs where these drums are isolated (Beat Box, King Kut, Sucker MCs, etc)

like i mentioned above, another thing that makes me think the hats are some drum machine genius is the similarity to later (definitely sequenced) prince tracks, like the drum breaks on "play in the sunshine" and "dance on" (i think that's the one i mean, on lovesexy).

These came out in 1987 and 1988 respectively. Looping technology had come a long way since the 1982 songs in question. I imagine Prince remained on the cutting edge of the "arms race" at that time. His wanting to effectively recreate that sound using what was available at that time makes sense to me.

xxxx-posts

be much inadequate one! (PappaWheelie V), Thursday, 20 November 2008 23:51 (thirteen years ago) link

So dubmill, do you suggest those hi-hats are Linn cymbal sounds?

be much inadequate one! (PappaWheelie V), Thursday, 20 November 2008 23:58 (thirteen years ago) link

They sound like it to me. The giveaway, apart from the regular, quantized feel of the timing, is the dull sound (lacking in top end).

dubmill, Friday, 21 November 2008 00:02 (thirteen years ago) link

thanks, that's really what i wanted to know

some know what you dude last summer (Jordan), Friday, 21 November 2008 00:06 (thirteen years ago) link

Beat Box by Art of Noise

Yes, that's right. And it sounds nothing like a DMX actually, well certainly the snare doesn't.

― dubmill, Tuesday, November 18, 2008 9:54 AM (2 days ago) Bookmark

Do you still believe this sounds nothing like a DMX snare?

be much inadequate one! (PappaWheelie V), Friday, 21 November 2008 00:12 (thirteen years ago) link

I have just listened to and played around with my sound file of the DMX snare. After compressing it, adding a reverb, then gating it, it began to sound rather similar, I must say. I am still not entirely convinced. It's as if there's a harsh, metallic quality to the sound on the record which still wasn't quite there on the sound I have, although it was 10 times less 'woody' and mellow than the untreated sound (ie before I messed with it). But I might have to revise my opinion. One other possibility is that they could have mixed two snares together.

The other thing that's swaying me towards your line of thinking is I think the kick does sound DMX-ish (notice I referred only to the snare in my original comment).

But I still stand by my claim that there is nothing in the programming which gives away that it was *sequenced* on a DMX. If anything it sounds a bit 'computerish' (slightly floppy timing).

dubmill, Friday, 21 November 2008 00:38 (thirteen years ago) link

ha, the first thing i did when i got home today was work out 777-9311 on drums.

some know what you dude last summer (Jordan), Friday, 21 November 2008 01:38 (thirteen years ago) link

Now tell me this is NOT a DMX drum machine being used in this song.

The Startrekman, Friday, 21 November 2008 06:02 (thirteen years ago) link

just listen to the transistion between 1:34 and 1:37 and tell me that that is not a DMX cymbal being used.

The Startrekman, Friday, 21 November 2008 06:04 (thirteen years ago) link

...the debate behind the production of Rapper's Delight...

― be much inadequate one! (PappaWheelie V), Thursday, November 20, 2008 3:27 PM Bookmark

link?

afrofuturist philosopher (The Reverend), Friday, 21 November 2008 06:17 (thirteen years ago) link

Every song ever is a DMX, especially Love Come Down, but especially 777-9311.

x-post

Rev, I don't know, that short lived Rapper's Delight debate was another deviated thread from like 3+ years back.

be much inadequate one! (PappaWheelie V), Friday, 21 November 2008 06:22 (thirteen years ago) link

Although Rev, you can find some thoughts much later at the OSHH board, where Jayquan, myself, and a few others deconstruct it:

http://oldschoolhiphop.forumco.com/topic~TOPIC_ID~16327.asp

be much inadequate one! (PappaWheelie V), Friday, 21 November 2008 06:35 (thirteen years ago) link

This indeed may prove that kashif used the DMX in this album

The Startrekman, Saturday, 22 November 2008 05:49 (thirteen years ago) link

That's Evelyn Champagne King "Betcha She Don't love you"

The Startrekman, Saturday, 22 November 2008 05:50 (thirteen years ago) link

A longer version of "Betcha She don't love you"

It has the drum solo in the beginning.

The Startrekman, Saturday, 22 November 2008 05:52 (thirteen years ago) link

I dug this thread up tonight after by chance listening to 1983 Midnight Star and noticing a softer touch DMX being used...which made me think of this thread and my over-the-top argument.

I'd bet money Startrekman that you are right in taking on my sidebar argument to prove Love Come Down et al uses a buried DMX, although I think our (all posters) collective derailing drew attention away from your initial point:

People keep saying it was the linn LM-1 but i know for a fact it was an Oberheim DMX drum machine.

This statement is as over-the-top as anything I've said about the non-use of the DMX before Davy D's use (which is Rap-centric, and still debatable within that context).

Although I stand by the idea that drum machines' sequencers have a feel that's as important as the drum sounds, dubmill made the best point on this, which is, often in early 80s (non-rap), they're buried, therefore difficult to feel. Kashif and company are the prime candidates for this, thus, heated debate.

So after all that, I'm listening closer to these songs, and wondering what's your verdict on 777-9311?

I still say Linn.

i am truley sorry for your lots (PappaWheelie V), Tuesday, 25 November 2008 08:25 (thirteen years ago) link

one month passes...

Average Suggest Banned (The Reverend), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 08:26 (thirteen years ago) link

but i know for a fact it was an Oberheim DMX drum machine

Lettuce C.U.P. (PappaWheelie V), Tuesday, 20 January 2009 08:40 (thirteen years ago) link

What a ridiculous video. What is the point of learning, parrot fashion, how to play on a drum kit a beat that was made decades ago on a drum machine? And as for how his finished version sounds, firstly the hihat work sounds like crap; secondly the original beat on the record relies on the hand claps holding the other syncopated elements together, so, without that, his finished version sounds like an ugly mess.

dubmill, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 11:52 (thirteen years ago) link

welcome to the world of Roland Vdrums

straightola, Tuesday, 20 January 2009 12:43 (thirteen years ago) link

one month passes...

I have listened to this song somewhere in the neighborhood of a dozen times today and it isn't enough.

51 things I hate about you (The Reverend), Monday, 2 March 2009 07:20 (thirteen years ago) link

There are two things wrong with that video

First: He said "777-3911" came out in the MID to LATE 1980s, MID TO LATE. If he is going to quote a song, learn when it came out. The song came out in 1981. That is the VERRRRY EARLY 1980s

Second: Like many people, he refers to the LM-1 as the LINN-DRUM. Do i have to say again, the LINNDRUM did not get released until 1982. The LINNDRUM was NOT used to make that song. The LM-1 possibly was but i personally still says it was a DMX but that was for another discussion.

The Startrekman, Monday, 2 March 2009 07:54 (thirteen years ago) link

Never change, The Startrekman

Dan I., Monday, 2 March 2009 19:41 (thirteen years ago) link

missed u the startrekman

abebe's kids (and what), Monday, 2 March 2009 19:42 (thirteen years ago) link

five months pass...

Bringing back a past post.

I listened to 777-9311 and I am slowly beginning to realize it may and i remphasize it MAY be a Linn LM-1. It sounds to me that the cymbals were played live.

The Linn cymbals and the high-hat sounds kind of artificial. I can't tell you what it is that tells me this but the cymbals from the Linn just sound artificial. The Cymbals and high-hat in the song sound like there being played randomly and not played from a programmed pattern.

I still say 777-9311 MAY be a DMX. Remphazie MAY be a DMX.

The Startrekman, Thursday, 27 August 2009 05:12 (twelve years ago) link

and to whoever said the Grandmaster Flash is a Linn LM-1 drum. I have to tell you. It was not. Before 1982, The LM-1 was not even widely available. The producers of that song could in NO WAY afford an LM-1. LM-1's were about 5,000$$ a piece.

The New York rap producers at the time could nary even rent one of those things let alone be able to buy one. At best, The biggest rap producers before 1982 could at best afford an 808 or a DMX. The DMX was the only thing closes to a digital drum machine that rap producers could afford if they could afford one at all. "The Message" is DMX all the way.

The Startrekman, Thursday, 27 August 2009 05:19 (twelve years ago) link

the hi-hat in 777-9311 is just not live. the pattern is exactly the same every time and way too consistent to be live. also, it does not sound live.

Ømår Littel (Jordan), Thursday, 27 August 2009 14:38 (twelve years ago) link

this is still the best beat btw

Ømår Littel (Jordan), Thursday, 27 August 2009 14:39 (twelve years ago) link

seriously dude, you seem to spend half your life obsessing over drum machines but you can't tell the difference between a programmed hi-hat pattern and a live one?!?!?!?!

damo tsu tsuki (r1o natsume), Thursday, 27 August 2009 14:57 (twelve years ago) link

Too all those who say the Oberheim DMX wasn't used before 1984

This video may or may not prove that wrong..

http://www.truveo.com/oberheim-dmx-classic-tracks-on-electribe-sampler/id/627479783

Among his tracks recreated is

Imagination-Body Talk which came out in 1982
Blue Monday which came out in 1983

The Startrekman, Sunday, 30 August 2009 04:25 (twelve years ago) link

lol

Ømår Littel (Jordan), Wednesday, 2 September 2009 21:49 (twelve years ago) link

one month passes...

More proof the Oberheim DMX was used well before 1983..

Harlem Nights Music Recreates some of the old-school hip-hop beats that used the DMX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GflqqvEZ9Ag

You will hear in this recreation...SURPRISE! Grandmaster Flash "The Message"

The Startrekman, Monday, 5 October 2009 07:50 (twelve years ago) link

this thread is peculiar.

thomp, Monday, 5 October 2009 09:14 (twelve years ago) link

one month passes...

Startrekman, the drums on 777-9311 are Linn LM1, not Oberheim DMX. When Marion 360 Systems took over manufacturing for Roger Linn (after the first 36 or so were built...by hand) they added, as an option, a cymbal.

You state in the first post "i know for a fact it was an Oberheim DMX drum machine." But in the last post you say:

"I listened to 777-9311 and I am slowly beginning to realize it may and i remphasize it MAY be a Linn LM-1."

then at the end you say

"I still say 777-9311 MAY be a DMX. Remphazie MAY be a DMX."

Well, which one is it?

reggiebrown32, Monday, 9 November 2009 19:27 (twelve years ago) link

Since this thread began, I have purchased a LM-2, aka LinnDrum, which has many of the same sounds (for instance, a better sample rate and new kickdrum) and very similar features to the LM-1 (not all sounds are tunable).

I say this bc on the LM-2, you can not only play the pads live (which Prince often did), but also quantize different sounds within the same pattern to different rates -- including no rate at all, which might explain why this cut *sounds* live.

Naive Teen Idol, Monday, 9 November 2009 19:42 (twelve years ago) link

the hi-hats are definitely quantized to 1/32. it's a testament to prince's skill as a musician that he managed to program such a complicated pattern (and different velocity levels!) on a real time sequencer. i've not used a linn drum, but i've tried on my dr-660 (which was designed by roger linn and features basically the same sequencer as the linn drum) to replicate this pattern but cannot come close. it's only slightly easier to attempt on a step sequencer!

rio (sean), Monday, 9 November 2009 21:04 (twelve years ago) link

i mean i guess he could've slowed the bpm right down when recording but still, hard

rio (sean), Monday, 9 November 2009 21:05 (twelve years ago) link

Naive Teen Idol,

I liked the Linn Drum too but it became dated very quickly since it was cheap and became popular real fast. Prince actually used it on Erotic City in place of the usual LM1 sounds. It's not always the equipment....It's sometimes the person using it. Simply put, Prince and his engineers can make any drum machine sound good.
The Linn Drum was sampled at 35K, the LM1 at 28K. The LM1 is below the Nyquist frequency, and the result is aliasing when you tune it up or down, resulting in that sizzle or ring that you hear on the handclaps or sidestick tuned real low. In my opinion, the LM1 was waaaaay better than the Linn Drum, just because you could tune any sound to any pitch and it would sound great. I can't say the same about the Linn Drum.

Rio,

I disagree with it being skill. All Linn machines have a repeat button...you set the quantize rate and it repeats at that rate. Harder with an LM1 than with my Linn 9000, but still do able.

With the 2nd snare hit of each measure, I believe he turned quantize off to achieve that off beat pattern. Actually sounds more like a mistake, but still very creative.

reggiebrown32, Monday, 9 November 2009 21:25 (twelve years ago) link

one year passes...

So i was looking on you tube how the hell he did that beat and found out something interesting with the linn lm-1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyFCy0DffZc

X-101, Tuesday, 8 March 2011 20:35 (eleven years ago) link

Yup -- LM-1 applies an envelope to a continuously running sample that varies as it plays. That means you get a different snapshot of the sample every time you trigger it. My LM-2 doesn't have that.

Naive Teen Idol, Wednesday, 9 March 2011 01:36 (eleven years ago) link

one year passes...

^_^

electricsound, Monday, 14 January 2013 21:48 (nine years ago) link

Roger Linn Shelved Products

owenf, Monday, 14 January 2013 22:39 (nine years ago) link

nine years pass...

Some good nerding out on this thread. Just to put it to rest, after Jam & Lewis talked about it a few years ago on Questlove's podcast and David Garibaldi confirmed it:

-It's definitely Linn LM-1

-David Garibaldi programmed the beat as a preset, which Prince based the song on.

change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 11 May 2022 15:36 (one week ago) link

ha, the first thing i did when i got home today was work out 777-9311 on drums.

― some know what you dude last summer (Jordan), Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:38 PM (thirteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

Lol, I do remember trying to figure it out but I probably wasn't playing it very well. Went back to it this week and it's a bit closer:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CdbCDpYFq_F/

change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 11 May 2022 15:38 (one week ago) link

nice playing

interesting idea to program a beat like that

corrs unplugged, Thursday, 12 May 2022 10:42 (one week ago) link


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