Joni Mitchell: Classic or Dud

Probably not as disappointed/horrified as Joni fans hearing Dan McCafferty's dulcet throat-scrape for the first time!

Oh, no doubt, and I was joking, but I did know the Nazareth version first from classic rock radio and was surprised when I first heard Blue at 19 or so.

also i think her voice is really foregrounded in the mix of Blue in a way that a lot of pop or mor-adjacent music isn't, might be a factor too. something like "California" has that sparse little intro then BOOM, bird-song

Nazerath's cover of Ballad of Hollis Brown is stunning, scarifying bad trip heavy psych what a fuckin band

Incredible take on Dylan, probably best spoken of elsewhere than a Joni thread though

>I looked at it but didn't know what to make of it, could you explain?

should reread 'Love and Theft' first! but I think those images speak for themselves. I will say I find it very interesting when fans say they never knew it was her, even though it's the inner sleeve shots that really force you to deal. that critic in the Guardian article asking 'One wonders how Joni could be friends with legends like Hancock and Mingus'... that is such a good question one can only wonder why he's saying that as if there could be no answer -- and this trial-by-GIF stuff runs a little too close to the form of questions that aren't actually looking for their very, very complicated answers

I don't know, 1977. think of how many racks full of the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack Prince age 19 probably had to walk by to buy his copy of this album. now that, is fucked up

Warner labelmates, they might've comped him one as a signing bonus?

- "Hey, Charles. Wanted to let you know a friend of mine is stopping by your place around nine, dropping off a notebook with some more lyrics to dig into. He's gonna be wearing a big hiat! Need him to get you any groceries?"

- "Same 'friend' of yours from last time?... Listen, kid, we need to talk about something...."

discogs has the inner sleeve art for Reckless Daughter, which I always thought made it a little more clear exactly who she was trying to piss off, and more importantly who she was inviting in.

I think those images speak for themselves. I will say I find it very interesting when fans say they never knew it was her, even though it's the inner sleeve shots that really force you to deal.

Who do you think she is trying to piss off? Who do you think she is inviting in?

Ha! Nothing too essentialist, and yes I'm clearly projecting as a massive fan who takes 75-79 as her peak (with Travelogue as underrated). It's as simple as her actively pushing away the people who are hesitant / nervous about her new direction, and while doing crazy shit to pull all the people still & newly with her even closer. When I got these records about 15-18 years ago, I remember reading through some of the reviews, and I really took them personally, one of those things like the ones trying to be positive hurt the worst. should probably not be posting, but I love ILM and I'm appreciating everyone's posts to this thread

I can’t get on board with “blackface to sort the trve kvlt fans from the casuals” as a defence. Even “Furry Sings the Blues” leaves me uncomfortable.

I really want to think the best of Joni - she is a towering genius to me, one of the pantheon - and so I've tried to understand the motivation. Best I can do is that she realised that her music had outgrown its previous forms and that she needed to engage with jazz to grow as an artist. Perhaps the blackface is an expression of a desire to assimilate and acknowledge that jazz is a Black music form, rather than being just a ghost-white folkie interloper. Mingus seems a clear desire to acknowledge the great man rather than stand on the shoulders of his art. Plus 70s, cocaine, self-belief. It's not great but it's the most charitable take I can muster. By which I don't mean that I agree with it or find the behaviour any less questionable.

fwiw The Jungle Line always made be uncomfortable as well, but I thought maybe there was some nuance to it I wasn't getting

Me too, along with the men carrying the anaconda on the cover as a counterpoint to the genteel suburbs.

this is so much more complicated than a defense - there's no defense! the only sane response to the cover is 'what were you thinking' and after reading the interview where she tells you, the only response is to yell the same thing louder -- actually I probably just yelled. I'm like stuck trying to get at why myself + so many of my friends pretty dedicated to studying the history of american music & personally invested in these issues, for whom the last few weeks have seen progress we couldn't have even imagined as kids, felt close to this record in particular.

now, when the whole point of social media surfacing 80s/90s yearbook shots of politicians & CEOs at last year's halloween party is to make it clear this noise never stopped, and all these Joni pictures have to be seen through the same lens now - I do apologize for complaining about context collapse when it's just as well to call it focus. I'm still mad at those reviews though! there was too much in the design of these albums that had to be overlooked for people to feel safe in criticizing the uncomfortable things about them. if you had taken the (sizable) leap of faith that you were uncomfortable about the same things, then you were fine with a record which made you uncomfortable. I mean I'm less uncomfortable the last three weeks I've been in a long time, more comfortable than the three times it took before I could even make it through the first song on Mingus

There's no "defence" here, just trying to understand how a person with such wonderful qualities elsewhere could make this kind of blunder, and what it really says about her. I guess there is also a kind of boomer entitlement that during the 60s and 70s, they'd "settled" questions of racism and feminism and righted all the wrongs, so were "above the law" on such issues.

I understand the instinct to "understand," but most artists record good muddled art using the most fraught of intentions.

i.e. interviews entertain me in part because of the face palm moments

Well, google isn't making this any better

https://jonimitchell.com/library/print.cfm?id=2431

Lott discussed one moment in particular when Mitchell performed for Rubin "Hurricane" Carter, the promising African-American boxer who was convicted of murder. During the performance, held at Carter's prison, Mitchell was booed off stage because the black prisoners thought her music was a "whitewashed version" of jazz and blues, he said. Out of anger, Mitchell publicly called Carter the N-word.

That was not the first time Mitchell was controversial regarding black culture, Lott said. On the cover of her 1977 album, "Don Juan's Reckless Daughter," Mitchell appears in blackface drag.

Lott explained that Mitchell's fantasy of being a black man was apparent in both her music and the relationships she had with men. Having a relationship with a black man came satisfyingly close to being one, Lott said.

"Joni thought she inhibited blackness," Lott said. "That's why she didn't see a problem with her wearing blackface or using the N-word."

She's looked at life from both sides now.

so, “above the law” as I’d guessed. Now I’m sad.

yeah, she seems to have thought she had the 70s equivalent of a hoodpass, but like, an ultrapremium hoodpass plus, because JFC

it's jarring because I always heard the line "oh well, just another hard time band with negro affectations" from the same album as a very sharp critical observation on white people slumming it and "trying on" blackness for their own amusement.

Well I think that really is the reading of that line, just didn't realise the singer excused the behaviour in herself because of her superior "credentials".
There was a pretty sharp disconnect from the real world in that LA showbiz elite in the 70s, and a lot of very iffy behaviour, which is depressing as it is thrown more into relief by historical perspective.

Fwiw part of the 'defence' (which ought to be as limited as possible in its scope) is that, as per Tom's sarcastic comment upthread, Canada does have a weird history with regard to blackface, mostly grounded in a problematic argument, which is routinely deployed by other Western countries as well: insofar as slavery was never practiced in Canada to the extent that it was in the US, blackface does not carry quite the same meaning on this side of the border. It's a disturbingly similar take to that of the alt-right in 2020, according to which anything short of a live-streamed lynching cannot be convincingly deemed 'true' racism. Here's a useful reminder of how ignorant such a perspective is in a Canadian context:

https://www.mcgill.ca/aapr/blackface-canada

Interesting that the article with that quote is on Joni's own website. I wonder what she thinks of those years now.

Do I...want to read this?

https://www.colorado.edu/gendersarchive1998-2013/2012/11/01/only-black-man-party-joni-mitchell-enters-rock-canon

Fwiw, Mitchell had been living in the US for over a decade by the time she made Don Juan's Reckless Daughter, an album on which she worked with Wayne Shorter and Chaka Khan. I'm not going to start a bonfire over a 40-year-old costume but she also doesn't get any slack for being a simple girl from Saskatoon.

My lack of Joni credentials is showing. That makes it all the more damning indeed.

sund4r otm -- if anything I think she was being too clever by half, not naive

Joni's story is definitely not one of her getting smarter and sharper over time: I think from Don Juan onwards there is an increasing sense of her losing any real capacity for self-criticism or self-awareness, until you end up with truly dumb songs like "The Windfall (Everything For Nothing)" that could only come from someone who is totally uncomprehending of their own privilege (also some great songs, but I don't think Joni circa 1975 would have let "The Windfall" make it onto an album).

I guess there is also a kind of boomer entitlement that during the 60s and 70s, they'd "settled" questions of racism and feminism and righted all the wrongs, so were "above the law" on such issues.

To me it feels more commonly like a post-Boomer, “this was solved before I got here” impulse — if only because other examples that come immediately to mind involve younger figures — tho I’m sure there are other ‘60s/‘70s instances that I’m not aware of.

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/1b/d6/a6/1bd6a68130934feb567abc8949d74f8e--patti-smith-patti-darbanville.jpg

the most obvious?

Most obvious what?

the most obvious instance of "this was solved before I got here" - Patti Smith's "Rock And Roll ...."

which she still plays live.

I guess the punk connection might make people think she's the next generation along, but she's only 3 years younger than joni

Was about to say, she's really of the same generation

Another hippy.

The 70s Rachel Dolezal

The PS song was a couple years earlier than DJRD.

Loads of later examples too, though. See Vice thread etc.

Actually, I think there's something different going on there.

Joni's story is definitely not one of her getting smarter and sharper over time: I think from Don Juan onwards there is an increasing sense of her losing any real capacity for self-criticism or self-awareness, until you end up with truly dumb songs like "The Windfall (Everything For Nothing)" that could only come from someone who is totally uncomprehending of their own privilege (also some great songs, but I don't think Joni circa 1975 would have let "The Windfall" make it onto an album).

― Tim F

100% agree, DJRD was a foreshadowing of Joni throwing her self-awareness and self-editing instincts out of the window for the most part of the 80s.

That story from the prison - did she think she was making 'authentic' jazz or R&B records in this period? I love these albums but that's kind of hilarious, like if David Gilmour got incensed that Dark Side of the Moon didn't make the R&B charts despite having a sax player, a soulful female singer, a blues track in "Money", etc.

The way she insisted on smoking in public during the '90s was Trumpian in its defiance.

pretty much all the original punks were late baby boomers I don't see why people think they are another generation

Certainly in the US.

I think the early Brit punks were all born in the 50s? Certainly Rotten, Strummer, Devoto, Sioux.

Strummer was an old man by UK punk standards.

Someone who was born after the baby boom would have been 12 in 1977.

So even Eater would have been boomers.

Yeah, to be clear, I wasn't thinking of punks with my comment. More like Tarantino etc.