Nick Cave : Classic or Dud ?

Classic? Beyond classic, fucking godlike more like. Try the _Live Seeds_ album, _Kicking Against the Pricks_ or _Let Love In_.

There's been a real shift in how Cave is perceived. When I first started reading the press he was always treated as this borderline nutter goth smack freak, now he's an Important Figure, and in between there was this oh-it's-another-Nick-Cave-album period, which would always qualify the "He's good" with a big "But". I think that got it right, pretty much.

A handful of stunning tracks though - "Mutiny In Heaven", "Tupelo", "The Mercy Seat", "The Ship Song", "Do You Love Me?", "Stagger Lee". So surely not a dud.

The Good Son proved the leonard cohen territory was his ie a very well structured running sequence, and ambience that almost saves also-rans like "weeping song",
but he dropped the ball on Henry's Deam so badly that i really haven't been able to bother much since

I mean there are a few songs on Let Love In, but for me that's as patchy as the album that preceeded it (Henry)

i believe he can only do so many really good ballads though, and that he's revisited those same ballads so often with the recent albums

i say there're have been so few rock songs that i can count them -- "The good son" & "the hammer came down", "Long time man", "Jangling Jack", "John Finn's wife" -- that's one or at most two good rock songs for each of those albums ! (oh "papa won't save you Henry", "who will be the witness", "jack the ripper", "weeping song" all lousy songs, such rock-by-numbers stuff, will not save him)

go back to your funeral my trial for the whole range, great title track ballad through the true freak-show feel of "The Carny", (better than anything the residents had produced for oh, so-long), and then the great whine-o-drone of "long time man" and the succinct birthday party punch of "scum" -- a classic album, from when Cave had to produce decent stuff to keep his job and maintain and propogate his reputation

"Murder Ballads" a great Aussie cash-in for then career dwindlings of Kylie and Nick (and what an unexpected couple !! proving they're both really show-biz and contenders for legit. rock star -- i thought Cave had some outsider cred -- maybe this was needed to break the concept to new audiences ?? it worked i suppose, but just a big-budget re-rendering of "long time man" idea to me)

ok the birthday party and early bad seed stuff didn't get the easy pay-checks the concept and oomph of their mere presence deserved as real-life art in the public eye, so
good luck to him for those initial flashes of real brilliance

maybe he'd be best served by a "greatest rock songs" and "greatest 'love' songs" double greatest hits, and then save those good songs for singles and forget the nine-yards albums

(ie you should not produce a whole filled out album if you don't have enough good songs)

I've only heard three Cave solo tracks: his cover of Neil Young's "Helpless," which I love, his cover of the Beatles, "Let It Be," which I despise, and that song "I'll Love You Till The End Of The World," which is pretty nice. I'm guessing people would recommend The Good Son as the place to start checking out his solo work? From Her To Eternity?

I trust many of you already know what my full first name is.

Mmm hmm.

So, um, what about my opinion regarding Nick Cave? Well, when you're able to selfishly claim that song for yourself, what other answer can you have but CLASSIC? All those naysayers can just kiss me. And Momus? I happen to like Kylie Minogue, too. She comes from a magical little place with little elfin fairies who spread their pixie dust all across this land. What do you say about Kylie's collaborations with the Manic Street Preachers? MSP also like Kylie.

But back to Nick Cave. Classic. A surprising one, too, considering how little I actually care for country. But I like this brand of graveyard country rock. And damn, I need to play "City of Refuge" now.

What do you think of The Bad Seeds? Surely you must like them... ?

I'm going to listen to my namesake song again.

I may be new and not know shit but I do know I don't like this kid at all.

No, I really like it as well.

whatever

What do you think of The Bad Seeds? Surely you must like them... ?

no

The last record of his I bought was "Murder Ballads" and I didn't really like it much and at the time was getting into some different music. I've been curious about the last three, but not enough to search them out.

Did you check out Aereogramme by the way?

Some not particularly coherent thoughts that I might come back to:

a) I guess he has to make the music he has to make, at this point.

b) I guess he's in a position (financially, whatever) that he can make the records he needs to make.

c) I don't like the idea of "Good music will be listened to in the future". You can play a record once and it change your life. There's no expectation that you watch a good film multiple times, I don't think.

this new one reminds me a bit of when I go to Guitar Center to get strings on sale and end up fucking around with doing droney pads on some display synth for fifteen minutes

hahaha OTM

I wonder how many people who put Ghosteen in their albums of the year lists will be listening to it in one, five, ten years?

I wonder this about literally every new record I've purchased since 2010 or so (with the exception of NTS Sessions 1-4) but I also acknowledge that this is a 'me' problem and not a 'music' problem. I also concede that I still get a lot of enjoyment from the ritual of getting swept up in the fever that still accompanies the release of particular albums. Last month when every message board was talking about Fear Inoculum? That was fun as hell. I dunno if I'll be listening to that album in five or ten years (probably not) but I had a good time getting swept up in all the excitement (see also: A Moon Shaped Pool). Ghosteen feels like one of those albums. This is why I am always loath to declare 'omg best album since xxx' and such, even when it might feel that way at the time.

He's not even that great in concert these days.

I saw him on "The First Born Is Dead" tour, which was as wild as anything. He encored with "Wild World" which almost made up for me never getting to see The Birthday Party.

I think I have probbaly seen him play a dozen times since then including one TV recording in G

He's not even that great in concert these days.

I saw him on "The First Born Is Dead" tour, which was as wild as anything. He encored with "Wild World" which almost made up for me never getting to see The Birthday Party.

I think I have probbaly seen him play a dozen times since then including one TV recording in Glasgow in front of an audience of around 100 which was so intimate that Blixa was practically sat on top of me while he was playing.

But the best time I

He's not even that great in concert these days.

I saw him on "The First Born Is Dead" tour, which was as wild as anything. He encored with "Wild World" which almost made up for me never getting to see The Birthday Party.

I think I have probably seen him play a dozen times since then including one TV recording in Glasgow in front of an audience of around 100 which was so intimate that Blixa was practically sat on top of me while he was playing.

But the best time I ever saw him was last year in an enormo-dome which I was expecting not to enjoy. He managed to make a 15000 capacity venue feel more intimate than that TV recording.

sorry for the muti posts - my phone is having a meltdown.

I've seen him a few different times since the mid '90s, but I haven't seen any of the recent big shows, just clubs and theaters. Speaking of context, what throws me a little bit is his stylistic turn came with Push the Sky Away, well before the death of his son, and even most of Skeleton Tree was iirc written or recorded before tragedy hit, too. Of course, that album is eerily resonant with what we, as fans/listeners, know happened, and the 3D movie subtly but explicitly expands on that feeling. So of course the new one is the first composed and recorded after the death of his son, and we listen with that in mind, but contextually I hear it as very much of a piece with the last three first and foremost. I'm honestly curious where he goes next, whether he stays in this minimal electro-acoustic mode or moves on to something else.

"He's not even that great in concert these days."

this is a bewildering statement to me. He's exceptional. Different than the 80's and 90's yeah, but that was a long fucking time ago.

On a separate note: Robert Ham (who...used to post here? still does? my brain is soft on this point) earlier today overheard a guy talk about this guy's friend who has a pizza place in the San Juan Islands in Washington. To quote Robert, the pizza place guy "is having a mural painted featuring Nick Cave, David Bowie, Joe Strummer and one other famous rocker he couldn't remember the name of sitting around a table eating pizza together." Needless to say I want to see this thing immediately.

Pics or it hasn't happened

I’ve seen Nick Cave a slightly embarrassing number of times going back to Henry’s Dream. The highlights were the tours for The Boatman’s Call and Abattoir Blues, absolutely exceptional shows with the new material feeling super vital. I’ve seen the last few outings and the new stuff has been good but for me they get a bit rote when the setlist warhorses are wheeled out - Red Right Hand, From Her to Eternity, Tupelo, Into Your Arms, Ship Song. I get why you’d want to play those songs and if any of those shows was your first NC show it would totally deliver.

The show I saw on the Push The Sky Away tour had Jubilee Street as like the 3rd song and it was unbelievable, one of the most extraordinary live music moments I’ve ever seen. I could have left at that point totally satisfied.

Nick Cave, David Bowie, Joe Strummer and one other famous rocker
Bob Marley or GTFO

Iggy IMO

saw bad seeds in a theatre san diego in 2017... still probably the best rock show i've been to. never seen a band with dynamic range as broad as that. nick's presence was out of this world, and being part of the crowd rushing the stage was surreal.

No More Shall We Part tour for me. I'm more or less a casual fan but to this day it was one of the best rock shows I've ever attended.

The new record's just ok imo. I really love "Night Raid" but none of the others are sticking. FWIW I didn't much care for Skeleton Tree either.

yeah. it's a shame the last two records don't really hold up to the amount of fuss - and magnetism - of the recent documentaries, tours, talks, etc. i really do think the seeds are world class musicians and nick's an amazing writer, but i just expect something a little more than microkorg for an hour.

So after bailing early on the stream as I noted up thread I held off on listening until the actual physical thing arrived. Listening last night my impression was I liked it quite a bit more (listening to a youtube stream on my headphones on my phone at work isn't probably the ideal listening environment) and approaching it in terms of Alice Coltrane's late devotional records I think helped but it into better prescriptive.

Musically, it reminds me of a lot of weird late 70s French synth stuff, Bernard Szajner or Richard Pinhas, though it isn't as urgent as any of that, more languid, more Tangerine Dream-y, ("Hollywood" is basically the score of a William Friedkin movie)...but with Nick obv singing/decanting over the top of it. More slippery then I usually like to hear NC/Bds but it was growing on me

Lots of weird animal/burning/fire/LA/Jesus images coming through in the lyrics...made me wonder if being semi-Malibu based they were affected by the Woolsey Fire

Made me think he has actually made a weird/divisive record that he always claims "Nocutrama" is, but overall I think I liked it, it makes up an interesting triptych with the last two, but I totally get why people wouldn't like it, my wife was really not feeling it.

Also interesting, Warren & Nick are the only ones who have their pictures in the artwork anywhere, in the very smeary, 80s gatefold

Love this album. Shouldn't play it on the way to work, in a morning, though.

https://www.stereogum.com/2076046/nick-cave-addresses-change-problematic-old-lyrics/news/

lol what a fuckin dope

Just so I'm clear, you would have songwriters like Cave revisit their previous work and alter any lyrics that might potentially offend someone? I guess I don't find his reply to that question especially unreasonable.

I read that like three times yesterday and still couldn't make heads or tails of it, what a dumb answer, if he doesn't want to change words in old songs (or if he does or whatever) I just think the way he couches his answer is stupid. Just say "yeah people might be offended by it but that's how the song goes" or "yeah people might be offended by it so I've amended it" but don't say yr songs are special children on the playground or whatever

I'm really growing annoyed with these missives, there was one the other day that about the meaning of a certain song that pissed me off cuz I just wish people wouldn't explain what their songs are about

i don't give a shit whether he changes the lyrics in his songs or not but that's a stupid, defensive answer

this whole exercise started out pretty neat but he's increasingly shown himself to be a pretty typical narrow-minded older dude on quite a few subjects you'd expect

I'm really growing annoyed with these missives, there was one the other day that about the meaning of a certain song that pissed me off cuz I just wish people wouldn't explain what their songs are about

― chr1sb3singer, Monday, March 9, 2020 11:28 AM (forty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah i hate "explainer" and "song exploder" type shit, drains everything of life

the dumbest thing is like oh it was 30 years ago who could have known...like this was TWO years after gnr's "one in a million" sparked a huge controversy, you knew what you were doing

i don't think he's under any obligation to change anything, or do do old songs or not do old songs but don't pretend

In 1992, the song was fully intended to be offensive, as far as I could tell. What's changed is that a young'ish white dude being offensive in 1992 (or 82, with the swastikas and such) could be taken as a strike against The Man, maybe even a show of camaraderie coming from a band of dudes with different ethnicities and sexualities, but now just feels like another rock band full of dudes.

> this whole exercise started out pretty neat but he's increasingly shown himself to be a pretty typical

The "holy song as a messager from the unknown" shtick is pretty thin after years of deploying it.

it's just the dumbest possible way to do the standup comedian "i'm just a teller of hard truths that some people can't handle" bit, art was such a mistake

the dumbest thing is like oh it was 30 years ago who could have known...like this was TWO years after gnr's "one in a million" sparked a huge controversy, you knew what you were doing

and in the 28 years since the record came out, approximately one person has not realised the song is written in character

The "holy song as a messager from the unknown" shtick is pretty thin after years of deploying it.

If you believe things, you should stop saying them, to better demonstrate your sincerity.

a young'ish white dude being offensive in 1992 (or 82, with the swastikas and such) could be taken as a strike against The Man, maybe even a show of camaraderie coming from a band of dudes with different ethnicities and sexualities, but now just feels like another rock band full of dudes.

― Julius Caesar Memento Hoodie (bendy), Monday, March 9, 2020 2:54 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

speak for yourself?

Not sure if anyone else watched Idiot Prayer last night, I was lukewarm on the idea going into it, the whole forced "live event" feel, clunky ticketing processes, solo piano, etc, but man it was really awesome, he did a great/wide selection of Bad Seeds stuff, a couple of Grinderman songs, a new song, all of it was great. The two Ghosteen songs (a record I have really come around on), esp "Galleon Ship", sounded perfect as solo piano jams.

I was hoping for "Wild World" but I'll take "Papa Won't Leave You Henry" any day of the week.

The execution (at least in North America, I know UK & Australia had issues with the stream) was excellent and expensive, I am sure this will get released in wider form at some point

yeah it was really nice; it was essentially a PPV film since it was made last month, but this made up for the cancelled tour this year. Performances were top notch. Yeah I'm sure this will be available later and likely is already on torrents somewhere; if you streamed this to your computer (which was kind of a pain in the ass) they just hosted it on vimeo and despite the "you can't log in later than start time" you absolutely could, and you could pause and rewind and even start over if you wanted to.

Bjork is doing 4 livestream concerts in August, via dice as well; but these appear to be actual live events. Looking forward to them.

Wasn't part of the point (and price) that it was a one-off, not to be released at a later date?

(Difficult to imagine that it won't be obviously).

It was, but the way the thing was shot & recorded it would be insane to think they are just going to sit on it forever.

And yeah despite all the "one time only! basically live event! not really!" hype it was stream-able right away, though I wonder if that had to do with the technical problems that it had in Australia and the UK? Like maybe they decided to be on the safe side and just have be like a normal streaming video.

And would I be cheesed if it were available later to people who didn't shell out 20 bucks? Not really

yeah I downloaded this from a torrent site already

I would've paid for this if it was actually live and I thought about paying anyway. A couple of his films (the concert one and the one about the previous album) were supposedly one-night only as well, weren't they? I don't really mind all this stuff. As someone who's followed him for a long long time, I have a kind of respect for how fucking skilful he is at making shitloads of money nowadays. Every time he does something like this, I think of his song "Easy Money" - that really nailed it. And I get it - providing for his family and then some is his priority above everything else, fair enough.

This is funny: https://www.theredhandfiles.com/piano-you-played-for-idiot-prayer/

https://www.theredhandfiles.com/1164-2/

stan culture strikes again

Vol. 1 of a major biography in the works:

https://www.harpercollins.com.au/9781460713211/boy-on-fire/

Nick Cave seems like someone that would write an exemplary and honest memoir that still manages to elide major events and subjects, like Springsteen did, imo.

Did anyone see last week’s solo concert?

Oh nevermind, missed the earlier posts.

crowdfunder for nick: https://www.theredhandfiles.com/1172-2/

that follows on an earlier report where apparently people have been calling that piano company telling them to give him a piano; he asked them to stop

these toxic nick cave stans (cave trolls??) are out of control

Looking back at his facetious post:

Now, one of the things you may or may not know about being a famous musician is that companies give you shit for free. The more famous you are, the more shit you get — you just have to wear one of their t-shirts or a branded cap or something.

I'm struck by the thought that if you have to explain a joke to the room, you're in the wrong room. The wit of cult-artist years of songwriting were built around the fact that he never winked. That post needed a winky emoticon, which would further kill the joke, so he shoulda caught himself.

tbf the internet is mostly one very large wrong room

yeah!

crowdfunder for nick: https://www.theredhandfiles.com/1172-2/

Nick's response is quite funny, good to see he isn't taking himself too seriously.