Nick Cave : Classic or Dud ?

Classic? Beyond classic, fucking godlike more like. Try the _Live Seeds_ album, _Kicking Against the Pricks_ or _Let Love In_.

There's been a real shift in how Cave is perceived. When I first started reading the press he was always treated as this borderline nutter goth smack freak, now he's an Important Figure, and in between there was this oh-it's-another-Nick-Cave-album period, which would always qualify the "He's good" with a big "But". I think that got it right, pretty much.

A handful of stunning tracks though - "Mutiny In Heaven", "Tupelo", "The Mercy Seat", "The Ship Song", "Do You Love Me?", "Stagger Lee". So surely not a dud.

The Good Son proved the leonard cohen territory was his ie a very well structured running sequence, and ambience that almost saves also-rans like "weeping song",
but he dropped the ball on Henry's Deam so badly that i really haven't been able to bother much since

I mean there are a few songs on Let Love In, but for me that's as patchy as the album that preceeded it (Henry)

i believe he can only do so many really good ballads though, and that he's revisited those same ballads so often with the recent albums

i say there're have been so few rock songs that i can count them -- "The good son" & "the hammer came down", "Long time man", "Jangling Jack", "John Finn's wife" -- that's one or at most two good rock songs for each of those albums ! (oh "papa won't save you Henry", "who will be the witness", "jack the ripper", "weeping song" all lousy songs, such rock-by-numbers stuff, will not save him)

go back to your funeral my trial for the whole range, great title track ballad through the true freak-show feel of "The Carny", (better than anything the residents had produced for oh, so-long), and then the great whine-o-drone of "long time man" and the succinct birthday party punch of "scum" -- a classic album, from when Cave had to produce decent stuff to keep his job and maintain and propogate his reputation

"Murder Ballads" a great Aussie cash-in for then career dwindlings of Kylie and Nick (and what an unexpected couple !! proving they're both really show-biz and contenders for legit. rock star -- i thought Cave had some outsider cred -- maybe this was needed to break the concept to new audiences ?? it worked i suppose, but just a big-budget re-rendering of "long time man" idea to me)

ok the birthday party and early bad seed stuff didn't get the easy pay-checks the concept and oomph of their mere presence deserved as real-life art in the public eye, so
good luck to him for those initial flashes of real brilliance

maybe he'd be best served by a "greatest rock songs" and "greatest 'love' songs" double greatest hits, and then save those good songs for singles and forget the nine-yards albums

(ie you should not produce a whole filled out album if you don't have enough good songs)

I've only heard three Cave solo tracks: his cover of Neil Young's "Helpless," which I love, his cover of the Beatles, "Let It Be," which I despise, and that song "I'll Love You Till The End Of The World," which is pretty nice. I'm guessing people would recommend The Good Son as the place to start checking out his solo work? From Her To Eternity?

I trust many of you already know what my full first name is.

Mmm hmm.

So, um, what about my opinion regarding Nick Cave? Well, when you're able to selfishly claim that song for yourself, what other answer can you have but CLASSIC? All those naysayers can just kiss me. And Momus? I happen to like Kylie Minogue, too. She comes from a magical little place with little elfin fairies who spread their pixie dust all across this land. What do you say about Kylie's collaborations with the Manic Street Preachers? MSP also like Kylie.

But back to Nick Cave. Classic. A surprising one, too, considering how little I actually care for country. But I like this brand of graveyard country rock. And damn, I need to play "City of Refuge" now.

What do you think of The Bad Seeds? Surely you must like them... ?

I'm going to listen to my namesake song again.

I may be new and not know shit but I do know I don't like this kid at all.

No, I really like it as well.

whatever

What do you think of The Bad Seeds? Surely you must like them... ?

no

The last record of his I bought was "Murder Ballads" and I didn't really like it much and at the time was getting into some different music. I've been curious about the last three, but not enough to search them out.

Did you check out Aereogramme by the way?

with the analogue synths and the choir sounds... it's like he's singing over a Kosmische album from the late 70s sometimes

the second disc is absolutely better than push the sky away and i say this as a big fan of that album

weirdly what this album reminds me the most of is magical cloudz which i never really expected from a nick cave record

haven't fully digested it but surprised anybody would prefer it to the last two. It's certainly beautiful and but seems to be a bit too soundtracky (and not unlike some of Cave and Ellis's soundtracks) and a bit too lacking in variety and tension? And surprised anybody would say Skeleton Tree is all tension and no release, when the penultimate song Distant Sky is perhaps the most beautiful recording of the last 10 years.

for me it's the most interesting thing he's done, or at least the thing i like the most since Abattoir Blues. probably because some of the first disc definitely sounds influenced by mid 90s Current 93.

the opening of the title track feels very "warszawa" to me

the whole album is continuing to grow on me, i think i was caught off-guard by it opening with "spinning song" which is one of the most minimal and skeleton tree-like tracks, but i even like that a lot now. "ghosteen speaks" is the only one i haven't gotten into yet, it's still quite formless and is mostly synth drones plus backing vocals "wwhoaaaaaaaaa" over and over

with the analogue synths and the choir sounds... it's like he's singing over a Kosmische album from the late 70s sometimes

I'm sold on that!

Or like a later Alice Coltrane record, which both he & esp Ellis are noted fans of

Hmm, thinking of this in terms of one of Alice Coltrane's ashram cassettes helps. My first listen found it too tract-like, too dependent on the words to click. But framing it as devotional pondering may help.

https://i.imgur.com/REug3mx.jpg

Nick what do you think Antifa is fighting for

http://www.theredhandfiles.com/why-do-you-write/

Or against, rather

nick: "self-righteous belief and the suppression of contrary systems of thought" is bad. "lack of humility" is bad. "paternalistic and doctrinal sureness" is bad.

also nick: people who are religious and believe in god are indisputably wrong and should probably be shunned.

i couldn't care less if people believe in god but i found his antifa commments quite shocking.

No one even brought up Antifa, he could have left it at his thoughts on woke culture, which I disagree with but whatever, old white dudes gonna old white dude

whatever, old white dudes gonna old white dude

bravo

I was at his Sunday 'Conversations...' show here in SF -- which was quite good -- and he did talk about free speech as such in the context of his version of "Stagger Lee" but didn't go THAT far, let's say. But I did think "Hmm..." when I heard it.

Bunch of UK and European dates announced for next year:

https://www.nickcave.com/tour-dates/

Lotte Lehmann, the German soprano, had this line about how 'only that is convincing which is truly felt' and as I listen to Ghosteen I'm tempted to reverse it: clearly I'm meant to feel something, but that putative emotion is buried deep in layers upon layers of smug theatrical artifice. I don't buy his incantations in the least, and all I'm left with as a newcomer to his oeuvre is the man's Reputation.

I think that's fair, or at least not unfair. Context carries a lot of weight on this album. Getting into Cave via this album would be a little like diving into Autechre and starting with "All End."

He's not even that great in concert these days. Around the time of Henry's Dream and Let Love In the concerts were extraordinary, the Bad Seeds were such a force back then. Some of the best live shows I ever saw. I find Cave's shows quite boring now.

Having gone to one of the Skeleton Tree arena shows it sort of worked, and I enjoyed it, but I'm not sure I have the urge to go this time round.

OTM about the Henry's Dream shows, they were the ones with the Mercy Seat endurathon version iirc.

I'm too much of a johnny-come-lately to have seen him around that time, but the Skeleton Tree shows were incredible for me, just this total communal love-fest.

the Push the Sky Away tour was fucking amazing

I don't dig the album, but I'd really recommend seeing Once More With Feeling before you dismiss it all as smug showmanship

tbh I think he's a bit lost but for understandable reasons

Yeah, I saw Once More With Feeling. In 3D! It was okay. Don't know if it was a necessary film to make, I just felt a bit sad after I saw it and wished the album was better. The Road To God Knows Where is good if you've not seen it.

Ellis is a weak link for me, I just don't like what he brings to the band. Sonically I find him a real turn off.

Lately I might agree with that. He's a wild man, so it's kind of too bad these days he's relegated to playing little micro synths or whatever. But when he picks up his violin or a guitar he's pretty rocking.

I would agree with most of that, I like Skeleton Tree more than you but this isn't his best era for sure

Ellis can be so great, Dirty Three was so amazing live and he was great on the Push tour

but yeah this new one reminds me a bit of when I go to Guitar Center to get strings on sale and end up fucking around with doing droney pads on some display synth for fifteen minutes

Can't remember which tour (Abattoir Blues possibly) but I saw The Dirty Three support the Bad Seeds once, Warren was absolutely amazing then. He played in the Bad Seeds the same night too. Crazy energy.

I wonder how many people who put Ghosteen in their albums of the year lists will be listening to it in one, five, ten years? It just doesn't feel like an album to be listened to much for me. I could always go back to Let Love In because it's such a stonkingly good, end-to-end killer record, but these last three albums just don't have that pull. They feel like worthy pieces of art that were important for Nick to make, but as music albums, not so compelling.

That fucking awful Bunny Munro book (I remember Q describing it as "like being hit over the head with a squeaky sex toy) was the beginning of a sharp artistic downward trend for Cave.

it'll be in my albums of the year list and i probably will be listening to it occasionally for the next 10 years, it's really that gorgeous

i understand why the change in sound may not really interest long-time fans at all though

I wonder how many people who put Ghosteen in their albums of the year lists will be listening to it in one, five, ten years?

incredibly boring way of thinking about music ahoy

Boring or not, I think it's not a totally unreasonable stance/standard. The broader question is, is it an album that you'd put into regular circulation as something you'd reach for before another album, either by the same artist or not? I don't know. I think of something like "Vulnicura" by Bjork, which I really liked at the time but haven't listened to since (and I never heard her most recent album). Or the second Bon Iver album, which I recall being kind of cool, but which I haven't felt the need to listen to since its release as well. I mean, there are only so many hours in the day. There are something like 20 Nick Cave albums at this time, that could be all I listened to, but if I was jonesin' for Nick Cave I'm not sure what it would take for me to grab the new one (or any of the recent ones) over the 5 or so I like a lot more.

I could always go back to Let Love In because it's such a stonkingly good, end-to-end killer record, but these last three albums just don't have that pull.

I feel the same way, Eggsy. As you said, Nick *had* to make them, and I respect that and find things to love on all of them, but they're so laden with context for me that they're hard to revisit. "Ghosteen" just slays me. As a parent, it's one of your my nightmares writ large.

Some not particularly coherent thoughts that I might come back to:

a) I guess he has to make the music he has to make, at this point.

b) I guess he's in a position (financially, whatever) that he can make the records he needs to make.

c) I don't like the idea of "Good music will be listened to in the future". You can play a record once and it change your life. There's no expectation that you watch a good film multiple times, I don't think.

this new one reminds me a bit of when I go to Guitar Center to get strings on sale and end up fucking around with doing droney pads on some display synth for fifteen minutes

hahaha OTM

I wonder how many people who put Ghosteen in their albums of the year lists will be listening to it in one, five, ten years?

I wonder this about literally every new record I've purchased since 2010 or so (with the exception of NTS Sessions 1-4) but I also acknowledge that this is a 'me' problem and not a 'music' problem. I also concede that I still get a lot of enjoyment from the ritual of getting swept up in the fever that still accompanies the release of particular albums. Last month when every message board was talking about Fear Inoculum? That was fun as hell. I dunno if I'll be listening to that album in five or ten years (probably not) but I had a good time getting swept up in all the excitement (see also: A Moon Shaped Pool). Ghosteen feels like one of those albums. This is why I am always loath to declare 'omg best album since xxx' and such, even when it might feel that way at the time.

He's not even that great in concert these days.

I saw him on "The First Born Is Dead" tour, which was as wild as anything. He encored with "Wild World" which almost made up for me never getting to see The Birthday Party.

I think I have probbaly seen him play a dozen times since then including one TV recording in G

He's not even that great in concert these days.

I saw him on "The First Born Is Dead" tour, which was as wild as anything. He encored with "Wild World" which almost made up for me never getting to see The Birthday Party.

I think I have probbaly seen him play a dozen times since then including one TV recording in Glasgow in front of an audience of around 100 which was so intimate that Blixa was practically sat on top of me while he was playing.

But the best time I

He's not even that great in concert these days.

I saw him on "The First Born Is Dead" tour, which was as wild as anything. He encored with "Wild World" which almost made up for me never getting to see The Birthday Party.

I think I have probably seen him play a dozen times since then including one TV recording in Glasgow in front of an audience of around 100 which was so intimate that Blixa was practically sat on top of me while he was playing.

But the best time I ever saw him was last year in an enormo-dome which I was expecting not to enjoy. He managed to make a 15000 capacity venue feel more intimate than that TV recording.

sorry for the muti posts - my phone is having a meltdown.

I've seen him a few different times since the mid '90s, but I haven't seen any of the recent big shows, just clubs and theaters. Speaking of context, what throws me a little bit is his stylistic turn came with Push the Sky Away, well before the death of his son, and even most of Skeleton Tree was iirc written or recorded before tragedy hit, too. Of course, that album is eerily resonant with what we, as fans/listeners, know happened, and the 3D movie subtly but explicitly expands on that feeling. So of course the new one is the first composed and recorded after the death of his son, and we listen with that in mind, but contextually I hear it as very much of a piece with the last three first and foremost. I'm honestly curious where he goes next, whether he stays in this minimal electro-acoustic mode or moves on to something else.

"He's not even that great in concert these days."

this is a bewildering statement to me. He's exceptional. Different than the 80's and 90's yeah, but that was a long fucking time ago.

On a separate note: Robert Ham (who...used to post here? still does? my brain is soft on this point) earlier today overheard a guy talk about this guy's friend who has a pizza place in the San Juan Islands in Washington. To quote Robert, the pizza place guy "is having a mural painted featuring Nick Cave, David Bowie, Joe Strummer and one other famous rocker he couldn't remember the name of sitting around a table eating pizza together." Needless to say I want to see this thing immediately.

Pics or it hasn't happened

I’ve seen Nick Cave a slightly embarrassing number of times going back to Henry’s Dream. The highlights were the tours for The Boatman’s Call and Abattoir Blues, absolutely exceptional shows with the new material feeling super vital. I’ve seen the last few outings and the new stuff has been good but for me they get a bit rote when the setlist warhorses are wheeled out - Red Right Hand, From Her to Eternity, Tupelo, Into Your Arms, Ship Song. I get why you’d want to play those songs and if any of those shows was your first NC show it would totally deliver.

The show I saw on the Push The Sky Away tour had Jubilee Street as like the 3rd song and it was unbelievable, one of the most extraordinary live music moments I’ve ever seen. I could have left at that point totally satisfied.

Nick Cave, David Bowie, Joe Strummer and one other famous rocker
Bob Marley or GTFO

Iggy IMO

saw bad seeds in a theatre san diego in 2017... still probably the best rock show i've been to. never seen a band with dynamic range as broad as that. nick's presence was out of this world, and being part of the crowd rushing the stage was surreal.

No More Shall We Part tour for me. I'm more or less a casual fan but to this day it was one of the best rock shows I've ever attended.

The new record's just ok imo. I really love "Night Raid" but none of the others are sticking. FWIW I didn't much care for Skeleton Tree either.

yeah. it's a shame the last two records don't really hold up to the amount of fuss - and magnetism - of the recent documentaries, tours, talks, etc. i really do think the seeds are world class musicians and nick's an amazing writer, but i just expect something a little more than microkorg for an hour.

So after bailing early on the stream as I noted up thread I held off on listening until the actual physical thing arrived. Listening last night my impression was I liked it quite a bit more (listening to a youtube stream on my headphones on my phone at work isn't probably the ideal listening environment) and approaching it in terms of Alice Coltrane's late devotional records I think helped but it into better prescriptive.

Musically, it reminds me of a lot of weird late 70s French synth stuff, Bernard Szajner or Richard Pinhas, though it isn't as urgent as any of that, more languid, more Tangerine Dream-y, ("Hollywood" is basically the score of a William Friedkin movie)...but with Nick obv singing/decanting over the top of it. More slippery then I usually like to hear NC/Bds but it was growing on me

Lots of weird animal/burning/fire/LA/Jesus images coming through in the lyrics...made me wonder if being semi-Malibu based they were affected by the Woolsey Fire

Made me think he has actually made a weird/divisive record that he always claims "Nocutrama" is, but overall I think I liked it, it makes up an interesting triptych with the last two, but I totally get why people wouldn't like it, my wife was really not feeling it.

Also interesting, Warren & Nick are the only ones who have their pictures in the artwork anywhere, in the very smeary, 80s gatefold