Awesome Audiophile Snake Oil

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http://machinadynamica.com/machina44.htm

J0hn D., Sunday, 18 November 2007 01:05 (ten years ago) Permalink

lololololol

J0hn D., Sunday, 18 November 2007 01:06 (ten years ago) Permalink

"The very best sound was obtained when I slightly loosened the screws on the Duplex Covers. And they sound great!!.

8]

morris pavilion, Sunday, 18 November 2007 01:12 (ten years ago) Permalink

lolololol

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Sunday, 18 November 2007 01:15 (ten years ago) Permalink

every product on the site is like New Hope for the Ape-Eared

J0hn D., Sunday, 18 November 2007 01:20 (ten years ago) Permalink

i love that website! check out this fancy table: http://machinadynamica.com/machina25.htm

it's supposed to isolate your amplifier from vibrations, "especially the 0 -10 Hz variety produced by Earth's crust movement, traffic, subways, tides, etc. "

how a spring could cancel out waves slower than 1 Hz?

elan, Sunday, 18 November 2007 01:38 (ten years ago) Permalink

but the best is this "teleportation tweak"
http://machinadynamica.com/machina60.htm

elan, Sunday, 18 November 2007 01:44 (ten years ago) Permalink

everything on there is great but I'm still standing by the Tru-Tone Duplex cover as the most balls-out

J0hn D., Sunday, 18 November 2007 01:50 (ten years ago) Permalink

oh wait though codename turquoise is pretty fucking rad

J0hn D., Sunday, 18 November 2007 02:00 (ten years ago) Permalink

Brilliant Pebbles is my favorite one on that site i think

ciderpress, Sunday, 18 November 2007 02:13 (ten years ago) Permalink

From cidepress' link, this was amusing:

"Where most audiophiles would agree, however, is that tweaks are a minor aspect of system building. Defined by the dictionary in Microsoft Word® as "a slight adjustment or change in..."

italics mine.

Clay, Sunday, 18 November 2007 02:20 (ten years ago) Permalink

http://machinadynamica.com/water.gif for brains

scott seward, Sunday, 18 November 2007 02:38 (ten years ago) Permalink

Somewhere, audiophile dude pushes the leather sofa away from the wall, sees four-socket outlet, shrieks.

bendy, Sunday, 18 November 2007 02:44 (ten years ago) Permalink

Well, these are great, but you don't have to spend a lot of money to improve sound:

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/Free_Techniques/Free_Techniques.html

Mark Rich@rdson, Sunday, 18 November 2007 04:34 (ten years ago) Permalink

Holy shit the Teleportation Tweak! We are dealing with <i>balls</i> here, gentlemen. Big, round, shiny balls, of finest brass, lovingly hand-polished to a mirror shine by a taskforce of brilliant Sound Artisans. These balls can be yours for the astonishingly low price of $680 (Big Shiny Brass Balls are not subject to our 30-day money-back guarantee)

Telephone thing, Sunday, 18 November 2007 10:23 (ten years ago) Permalink

it doesn't actually take any courage to be a con man, is the thing. you just have to really, really hate everybody.

El Tomboto, Sunday, 18 November 2007 19:55 (ten years ago) Permalink

The interesting thing about these tweaks is that they abandon the pretense of scientific support. Whereas w/ feet for speaker stands in Stereophile or whatever they'll be some physicist explaining how the damping works, here's it's just like, Hey, put this magic clock in the room and it'll improve the sound. I love it.

Mark Rich@rdson, Sunday, 18 November 2007 20:36 (ten years ago) Permalink

Sorry, maybe I'm Billy-doesn't-get-it, but is this site real or an elaborate spoof?

Matt #2, Sunday, 18 November 2007 20:40 (ten years ago) Permalink

I had initially assumed spoof, but I followed some links and poked around and it appears to be real, or at least elaborate enough a spoof to include three or four different sites. Stereophile had an article on some of these tweaks a few years ago anyway:

http://www.stereophile.com/news/10415/

Mark Rich@rdson, Sunday, 18 November 2007 20:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

even if it is a spoof there's certainly enough real snake-oil products with extremely similar purposes/explanations

here's a collection of some more: http://www.ilikejam.dsl.pipex.com/audiophile.htm

ciderpress, Sunday, 18 November 2007 21:36 (ten years ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

i know someone who swears by this ....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280182123367&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=018

zappi, Thursday, 13 December 2007 15:59 (ten years ago) Permalink

"extremely flat"

nabisco, Thursday, 13 December 2007 16:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

I don't even know what "a richer, fuller sound, with less emphasis of detail" means. it's supposed to be a good thing?

bernard snowy, Thursday, 13 December 2007 16:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

My latest tweak = this chair;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/njsouthall/Photo624.jpg

Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 13 December 2007 16:21 (ten years ago) Permalink

i'm actually buying a glass platter for my turntable. i might even buy that mat for it. i'm a sucka 4 luv.

M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 13 December 2007 23:24 (ten years ago) Permalink

actually the chair i'm assuming was a joke, but honestly i was suprised how much getting speaker stands and "correctly" positioning my chair i listen in and the speakers in the room made a HUGE difference in how good things sounded.

M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 13 December 2007 23:39 (ten years ago) Permalink

The chair's totally not a joke; it's expensive and comfortable and easily moved but it's not likely to make me fall asleep in it (no headrest); if I'm comfortable and awake, I can concentrate on listening more. I bought it (almost) with the sole intention of it being a 'headphones' chair.

But yeah, basic physics says position your speakers correctly and sit in the right spot; you simply don't get stereo-imaging without it.

Scik Mouthy, Friday, 14 December 2007 07:52 (ten years ago) Permalink

two months pass...

that's AMAZING.
audiophiles are some weird people, man.

ian, Tuesday, 4 March 2008 19:57 (ten years ago) Permalink

actually the chair i'm assuming was a joke, but honestly i was suprised how much getting speaker stands and "correctly" positioning my chair i listen in and the speakers in the room made a HUGE difference in how good things sounded.

-- M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, December 13, 2007 11:39 PM

totally true

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 4 March 2008 19:58 (ten years ago) Permalink

actually properly treating one's room acoustically would probably do a better job than moving your chair and speakers about

electricsound, Tuesday, 4 March 2008 22:29 (ten years ago) Permalink

is there already a company selling audiophile interior house paint?

because if there is, I should start selling audiophile EXTERIOR house paint.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 4 March 2008 22:30 (ten years ago) Permalink

(xpost)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cb/Dbsts2.jpg

snoball, Tuesday, 4 March 2008 23:36 (ten years ago) Permalink

two months pass...

I was much, much less impressed with this enormous fucking Naim set-up than I should have been given how much it ought to have cost. Sure it went LOUD, but sound-wise I wouldn't swap it for my own system, I don't think.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/njsouthall/IMG_0126.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/njsouthall/IMG_0128.jpg

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 15:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

Is it just perspective on that first photo, or are your speakers nearly at shoulder height?

Rob M v2, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 15:26 (ten years ago) Permalink

Oh, no - is that a Cyrus CD player? Or tuner? And why isn't everything on Mana shelves? That's why it doesn't sound that good. And has it been on continuously for five years? Another biggie with Naimists. (Seriously, that doesn't look like a great room for those huge - and amazingly ugly - speakers).

What's the turntable - Nottingham Spacedek or something? Oracle Delphi?

Michael Jones, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 15:27 (ten years ago) Permalink

mp3s out a old marantz amp someone gave me and 15 y/o bottom of the line cambridge soundworks speakers all day babay

although i did love to read sudiophile magazines when i worked at a bookstore just for the lulz

jhøshea, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 15:30 (ten years ago) Permalink

The speakers are nearly to chest height - I'm 5'8".

The Cyrus is just a DAC for his wireless streaming thing. Dunno what the turntable is. The room is big but odd; it's a loft that used to be three bedrooms. There's a (low) double bed behind the speakers, plus a desk, which is where I slept (not the desk) (although that picture was taken at 6am so sleeping wasn't exactly urgent and key that weekend).

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 15:31 (ten years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I really wish someone had just given me a peek into my co-habiting/flat in communal block/married-with-kids future when I was handing over the moolah for all my gear in 1996-97. I wish I'd just got something good/2nd-hand with a small footprint (Cyrus CD/integrated, ProAc speakers, something like that; maybe a Pro-Ject record deck, old Marantz cassette deck, NAD tuner, cables from Maplin) and STOPPED there. Think of all the photographic gear I could've bought with the money saved if I'd just contracted that particular hobbyist bug a decade earlier!

(Ah, DAC for wireless streaming; the Naim box-stacking is kinda insane - external power supplies for everything. Makes my Audiolab pre/mono arrangement look positively understated).

Michael Jones, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 15:38 (ten years ago) Permalink

The speakers are Naim DBLs. They weigh about 15st each. Retail these days at £15k. When he got them, in 2000, they should have been £12k. He got them for £4k cos they were "shop-soiled" - the band he's in had an arrangement with Naim and they'd been using them as a playback set-up when they recorded an album in a country house, and the guitarist's dog had taken a bite out of the bottom corner of one, or something.

I'm kind of glad I've had a brush with stuff that's seriously high-end because it's warned me off a bit. Our flat's not that small, but it's a flat nonetheless, and, you know, I want stuff on the walls and holidays and a new camera and stuff maybe too.

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 15:42 (ten years ago) Permalink

I think my main response to audiophilia these days is that the best way to make your hi-fi sound great is to play better records on it.

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 15:48 (ten years ago) Permalink

actually properly treating one's room acoustically would probably do a better job than moving your chair and speakers about

How so?

Scik Mouthy, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 15:50 (ten years ago) Permalink

the best way to make your hi-fi sound great is to play better records on it.

b i n g o

Savannah Smiles, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 16:28 (ten years ago) Permalink

if anyone is looking for really great speakers that won't break your bank....i bought these about a year ago and couldn't be more pleased with them...they are really surprising given the price and size:

Epos ELS 3 mini monitors:

http://www.musicdirect.com/product/73457

i run them with a Cambridge Audio integrated amp w/Cambridge phono pre-amp.....

My turntable is a Rega P1 -- one thing on that i would recommend is buying a glass platter and also i replaced the original ortofon cartridge with a Denon DL 160 cartridge which is a fucking amazing cartridge for the price...

For CD player I run a really really old NAD one that I got off craigslist for $35...it works pretty well, has a hard time tracking CD-Rs but will play them after awhile (it's from 87 though so I guess there weren't even CD-Rs then)

M@tt He1ges0n, Tuesday, 6 May 2008 16:38 (ten years ago) Permalink

Post more pics of slobs in garrets seasoned with with ridiculous sound systems and ugly furniture.

Gorge, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 20:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

I really like the coffee table.

Matt Armstrong, Wednesday, 7 May 2008 20:38 (ten years ago) Permalink

I think my favourite way / place to listen to music these days, rather than the big sofa and NAD / Cambridge Audio / Tannoy / proper rack & stands set-up in the living room, with everything anchored in a nice triangle, blah blah, equidistant from rear walls, speakers toed in, is the hotch-potch system in the back room, with the knackered Marantz CD, 20-year-old Marantz amp, DAC, and diddy Q Acoustics speakers. Cos I have space, peace, my comfy chair, books, headphones, no TV or console to distract.

Scik Mouthy, Thursday, 8 May 2008 17:24 (ten years ago) Permalink

Those are the kind of speakers you buy to justify having previously bought Monster Cable.

kenan, Thursday, 8 May 2008 18:31 (ten years ago) Permalink

What's the sensitivity rating on those things? It might be all show, but they certainly look like they could bring on an involuntary bowel movement.

kenan, Thursday, 8 May 2008 18:36 (ten years ago) Permalink

If the Steve Hoffman forums are anything to go by, a) yes, they mostly own a single album, and b) said album could be literally anything. I've seen threads comparing Herman's Hermits pressings.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 31 May 2018 18:44 (four months ago) Permalink

I kinda want to see a big study with likert scale surveys, behavioral assessments, even brain scans of people who experience this fork in the road and go down either the MUST HAVE ALL THE RECORDS route vs. the MUST HAVE THE BEST SYSTEM route vs. the meh it’s just okay I’d rather go on a run with some mp3s route vs. the actually I’m deaf.

El Tomboto, Thursday, 31 May 2018 19:30 (four months ago) Permalink

xxxxxxxp -- when audiophiles refer to timing they aren't talking about turntable speed; it's an element of what they refer to as "PRaT" -- pace, rhythm, and timing. You're unlikely to get a solid definition if you Google it, but apparently it can mean anything from the ability of a piece of audio equipment to get your toe tapping to how well that piece of equipment reproduces transients. According to Stereophile magazine, your old belt may have been conspiring "to give an aura of lassitude in which the musicians seem to be playing subtly out of time. This failing may, with practice and acuity, be discerned on just a few notes of a single voice or instrument. Here one may perceive a nuance of uncertainty, a hint of nervousness, or a feeling that the steady, controlled flow of a performance is not as even or as secure as it should be." It sounds like your new belt will solve that problem, assuming that your amplifier and speakers (and cables) also handle PRaT well.

early rejecter, Thursday, 31 May 2018 19:45 (four months ago) Permalink

been years since I heard the word 'prat'
so appropriate here.

mark e, Thursday, 31 May 2018 20:02 (four months ago) Permalink

I don't know, i've been listenign to music my whole life and i've never had an issue with Pacing, Rhythm or Timing as far as i'm aware. The good news is, i've got this white belt and now i'm set.

brotherlovesdub, Thursday, 31 May 2018 21:12 (four months ago) Permalink

I'd like to know how these folks view live performances.

I mean, for some classical music fans, the recordings are a very last resort to hear a particular piece. I'm not say all or even a majority of classical fans are this way, but for some, the live performance is the only way to experience the music.

he doesn't need to be racist about it though. (Austin), Thursday, 31 May 2018 22:21 (four months ago) Permalink

my system had issues with Pacing, Rhythm, and Timing. So I hired a PI to watch my fuse box and send me daily reports on its whereabouts.

Tapes 'n Tapes of Osho (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 31 May 2018 22:38 (four months ago) Permalink

Come on Austin, that’s ridiculous. Most of those performers don’t even have cables or preamplifiers connected to their instruments. Where would you put the stones?

El Tomboto, Thursday, 31 May 2018 22:41 (four months ago) Permalink

I read about that one U2 tour where Brian Eno secretly hid perfectly placed isotope-stabilizing ion-absorbing frequency-perfecting rocks inside of all the instruments and microphones, and it was definitely worth the ticket price, which was two Ferraris per person.

El Tomboto, Thursday, 31 May 2018 22:47 (four months ago) Permalink

I bought all one hundred and seven of the gold blu-ray audio discs of that tour and played them on my dishwasher and it was basically exactly like being alive in my house

El Tomboto, Thursday, 31 May 2018 22:52 (four months ago) Permalink

lmao

valorous wokelord (silby), Thursday, 31 May 2018 23:15 (four months ago) Permalink

Although my question was in fact quite genuine and serious, these preposterous answers seem like the correct ones.

he doesn't need to be racist about it though. (Austin), Thursday, 31 May 2018 23:24 (four months ago) Permalink

at least one of these dudes only listens to Moody Blues Live at Red Rocks and definitely saw said band at said venue

mh, Friday, 1 June 2018 01:15 (four months ago) Permalink

Yes, but what did he say about the performance? The acoustics? Did it compare to the Shakti stone-encrusted diamond gold disc hybrid recording of the same songs?

he doesn't need to be racist about it though. (Austin), Friday, 1 June 2018 01:57 (four months ago) Permalink

I'd like to know how these folks view live performances.
the perfect system would be able to reproduce the sound of an acoustic concert so accurately that you could not tell the difference

I know plenty of audiophiles who are passionate and curious about music, it's a hobby, they have fun fine tuning their systems, they're able to laugh about these things as well, I think maybe some of you guys need to meet some nice audiophiles

niels, Friday, 1 June 2018 07:20 (four months ago) Permalink

at least one of these dudes only listens to Moody Blues Live at Red Rocks and definitely saw said band at said venue

imagine the self-confidence you'd have to have for this to be your sole musical interest, these guys are heroes

we used to get our kicks reading surfing MAGAzines (sic), Friday, 1 June 2018 07:49 (four months ago) Permalink

The PRaT thing - I remember hearing that in association with Linn/Naim gear about 20 years ago. The notion was that Linn/Naim weren't necessarily the most faithful means of reproduction in some sort of analytical way (separation, frequency extremes, ultra-low distortion) but the music just "hung together" better through their gear and had that elusive "musicality". The non-Linnie 'philes would denigrate them as "Flat Earthers", while the Linnies would regard the rest of the audiophile community as "lab technicians", more interesting in visualising the decay of a cymbal crash than, y'know, groovin'.

The "first time you heard a favourite LP" thing has some substance for some people, I think. I spent an awful lot of money in the '90s chasing the sensation of hearing the first Tindersticks album on my entry-level Richer Sounds hi-fi ten minutes after I first set it up. I became obsessed with avoiding "brightness", that ice-cubes-on-fillings upper-mid sting that I was convinced the better kit had exposed on all my records. I stuck a fancy Marantz CD player through a valve stage to my friends' amusement ("a bit of gain and some harmonic distortion for only £130").

Michael Jones, Friday, 1 June 2018 12:00 (four months ago) Permalink

sic otm

mh, Friday, 1 June 2018 13:51 (four months ago) Permalink

I just bought a tube amp and frankly it sounds amazing

, Saturday, 2 June 2018 01:13 (four months ago) Permalink

As they do.

he doesn't need to be racist about it though. (Austin), Saturday, 2 June 2018 02:11 (four months ago) Permalink

neils and 龜 should both be FP’d for bringing “hey guys, aspirin” to a snake oil thread

El Tomboto, Saturday, 2 June 2018 09:26 (four months ago) Permalink

is it a new tube amp or an old one?

I have a couple music hardware nerd friends who love refurbishing old receivers, buying good quality tubes. It’s a pretty cool hobby imo

mh, Saturday, 2 June 2018 18:03 (four months ago) Permalink

Are there people out there hand-blowing tubes

valorous wokelord (silby), Saturday, 2 June 2018 18:16 (four months ago) Permalink

most of them use their mouths

na (NA), Saturday, 2 June 2018 18:42 (four months ago) Permalink

*chases NA off stage*

valorous wokelord (silby), Saturday, 2 June 2018 19:35 (four months ago) Permalink

three months pass...

lol nope it definitely doesn’t.

faculty w1fe (silby), Monday, 10 September 2018 18:51 (one month ago) Permalink

Also what is that graph even trying to be

faculty w1fe (silby), Monday, 10 September 2018 18:52 (one month ago) Permalink

Top line goes all the way up to eleven.

Dan Worsley, Monday, 10 September 2018 19:07 (one month ago) Permalink

couldn't resist looking it up. a Sony thing. guessing it's something like a bbe sonic maximizer or something that makes the high end tingle and give that sensation of more life in the sound?

andrew m., Monday, 10 September 2018 19:38 (one month ago) Permalink

"upscales" lol

andrew m., Monday, 10 September 2018 19:38 (one month ago) Permalink

that fucking graph is killing me

bitch that’s the tubby custard machine (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 10 September 2018 19:50 (one month ago) Permalink

DSEEZ NUTX

stan in the place where you work (morrisp), Monday, 10 September 2018 19:56 (one month ago) Permalink

one month passes...

Maybe not that snakeoil-y, but the hipster doucheyness is off the charts!

https://www.atxrecordplayers.com/optin-22668722

Ubering With The King (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 18 October 2018 07:15 (four days ago) Permalink

wow, some people have a lot of spare cash

niels, Thursday, 18 October 2018 07:54 (four days ago) Permalink

Huh, just noticed some of their pitch is only on the mobile site.

Lines like:

If you're looking for a cheap console check Craigslist

Mcintosh packages are available for only the best and rarest consoles! (Only true ballers allowed)

Ubering With The King (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 18 October 2018 08:37 (four days ago) Permalink

is it douchey if i think those look sexy as hell?

The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:52 (four days ago) Permalink

no way, those look fkn rad, although i suspect there's no way in hell i'd be willing to pay what they're asking for

himalayan mountain hole (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:56 (four days ago) Permalink

I was gonna say, I'd much rather look at one of those consoles than at a stack of components.

But then, for probably less than $100, you could find and gut one of those consoles and shoehorn your gear into it.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 18 October 2018 14:58 (four days ago) Permalink

I tried fixing my grandpa-in-laws console because the tube amp sounded great and it had 78 rpm. But I'm no gearhead, and I could never get the turntable to consistently start nor find a replacement needle. Not the sexiest design, but it had potential if I could have figured out how to put a better turntable in there.

saddest kamancheh (bendy), Thursday, 18 October 2018 15:01 (four days ago) Permalink

But then, for probably less than $100, you could find and gut one of those consoles and shoehorn your gear into it.

― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, October 18, 2018 9:58 AM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah i think that's basically what these guys are doing, getting rummage sale stuff the loading it w/components and charging 4X what it's worth

The Desus & Mero Chain (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 18 October 2018 15:26 (four days ago) Permalink

^^There's another video (also visible on their mobile site, but also seen here) where in the founder admits that's how he got started, by buying a console on Craigslist and then fixing it up.

To me, the doucheyness lies in the whole "ATX" branding, the copy I've excerpted, the fact that they've landed a endorsement from noted automotive douche Jesse James, and that one book in this photo.

Ubering With The King (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:49 (four days ago) Permalink

...and also the balls to castigate cost skeptic customers by advising them to fuck off BY DOING EXACTLY WHAT THE COMPANY IS ALREADY DOING.

Ubering With The King (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 18 October 2018 18:53 (four days ago) Permalink

that’s ‘noted automotive douche and nazi jesse james’ to give him his full title

himalayan mountain hole (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:05 (four days ago) Permalink

my old gran had a console like these.
not quite as high end, more likely a g-plan thing.
can't remember the manufacturer.
after her death it went to a cousin who preferred watching Bradford City as opposed to listening to the latest record by The The, much to the anger of many within the family clan.
the record deck was dreadful, but damn, it made old 60s 7" singles sound so special via its inbuilt speakers.
what I would give to have it now with a decent set up inside.
none of the original electronics would be worthy, but with modern kit in it, it would be bloody wonderful.

mark e, Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:20 (four days ago) Permalink

surely they have these things coming out their ears in palm springs

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:24 (four days ago) Permalink

that’s ‘noted automotive douche and nazi jesse james’ to give him his full title

Not to mention his treatment of poor Sandra Bullock...

Ubering With The King (C. Grisso/McCain), Thursday, 18 October 2018 19:27 (four days ago) Permalink

https://www.atxrecordplayers.com/hosted/images/9c/fb6a916c0c11e8983bdfb25c0e06d1/unnamed-7.jpg

nice copy of atlas shrugged there, douchelord

canary christ (stevie), Thursday, 18 October 2018 20:01 (four days ago) Permalink


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