The Stone Roses - Classic or Dud? And also, Search and Destroy?

SEARCH: the first album DESTROY: the cover art of THE SECOND COMING.

SEARCH for Squire's backwards guitar opus "Simone", DESTROY , well, not much. I sort of like it all regardless of how unpopular that idea might be.

DESTROY - John Squires hair, Ian Brown's voice, all their fans, the first 'critically acclaimed' album which is nothing more or less than a collection of pleasant sixties-inflected jangly guitar songs with a funk wigout at the end and a shit singer, anyone who seriously thinks Ian Brown is the second coming of the Messiah, Mersey Paradise, Ian Brown's solo career, The Seahorses, Reni hats, flares, Cressa, that ridiculous 'monkey-man- dance, lemons, Cackson Bollocks, The Second Coming (especially Ten Storey Love Song), playing songs backwards, spurious reinventions of the phrase 'Northern soul', Aziz Ibrahim, the opening of So Young and most importantly Your Star Will Shine, the worst song ever recorded.

P Scream's Velocity Girl + C Twins' Orange Appled x The Byrds.

Squared by the Smiths :)

The remainder is still utterly wonderful and unique.

Destroy: Full Fathom Five amd any one who reckons the Roses are not where it's at.

The truth is guys, The Roses rock. Today's bands are still trying to come to terms with the songcraftery of the first album, 'Fools Gold' opened up the 90's and Second Coming, well, OK they are clearly coked out of their minds (the sheer indulgence could only come from a coke habit, for Chrissakes you can hear it in Brown's throat "sheeee's my sisterrr") but it's one of those albums you can just fucking dig right into late at night, for all its flaws.

So what that Brown could never sing live for shit and none of the band have since lived up to the Roses' status. That kind of brilliance is impossible to sustain. I don't think you could reasonably suggest that the Roses are anything less than classic. You can say you don't like that stuff, but it ain't the same thing - that's more to do with your own deficiencies. They WERE classic. End of story.

Do you wanna bet on that!

I suppose if that easy to destroy indie then good riddance.

And as for Garage Rock, as practiced by the Stripes, and in the UK the Black Madonnas et al, it didn't come about cos of the Roses. If Brownie and the boys are responsible for anything it's Oasis, who don't even come close (and I think a fair portion of the blame for the Brothers Gallagher can be laid at the feet of the Mondays).

Why do you think people went out to buy the Roses albums? Because they contain fine, beautiful songs perhaps?

The claim that indie died might hold some weight, (although with Garage Rock kicking off on both side of the Atlantic I think you might be talking utter shite) but if it did die, it's ignorance on the part of the music buying public which killed it, not the fucking bands themselves.

because they are fucking idiots.

''Because they contain fine, beautiful songs perhaps?''

overproduced, comedy tunes nonsense say I.

''And as for Garage Rock, as practiced by the Stripes, and in the UK the Black Madonnas et al, it didn't come about cos of the Roses. If Brownie and the boys are responsible for anything it's Oasis, who don't even come close (and I think a fair portion of the blame for the Brothers Gallagher can be laid at the feet of the Mondays).''

the roses were responsible for the beginning of the commercialization of indie. you can trace that to this first album (though if it wasn't them it would've been someone else for sure).

''The bands you mention do rock but unless you are keen on a wee bit of narcotic indulgence, you're not gonna dig shit like the Spacemen, right? It's aimed at too narrow an audience.''

what's all this aiming at an audience. You sound like a bloody marketing executive from a rec company!

The 'commercialisation' of indie? People were dead excited when the Smiths went Top 10 and were on Top Of The Pops, I suspect. Part of what 'killed indie' in the UK was the collapse of the compromised dictionary-definition of indie i.e. independently distributed under the weight of tiny dance labels and PWL.

Yeah! Good point!

Anyway, that's all besides the main point which is: The Roses didn't kill anything - they opened things up. They crossed genres and united rockers and ravers - they were the second summer of love.

And as m'learned friend above points out, indie as a scene anyway is defined by the marketing and distribution of independent labels, which were swallowed up and assimilated by the mainstream for various differing reasons. But I don't understand how you could blame the Roses in any way for the development of that process.

but unless you are keen on a wee bit of narcotic indulgence, you're not gonna dig shit like the Spacemen

(Spacemen 3)have made music influenced by and complimentary to the imbuement of narcotics.

Anything is good when you're off your face on drugs, therefore to say something is only good when you're off your face on drugs is totally stupid. I'm sure if we do a rollcall we can find fucking loads of Spacemen 3 fans who've never touched narcotics in their life.

I'm thinking of how much I used to listen to Spacemen 3 and Spiritualized at 16/17 and boy did I do loads of drugs then? Eh no wait I did none.

If your point is the first thing you said which I quoted in italics there, then I'd like to see you try and defend it.

If your point is the second thing I quoted, then say so in the first place.

sorry mark i can't stop, you'll have to beat me a few times then I just might stop.

''You sound like a child. Fucking hell kid, when I say aimed at too narrow audience, d'you think Pierce would argue that, actually, Spacemen, was aimed at the kickers and chequered shirt brigade who frequent the High Street chainstores and eat junkfood every day? You clearly are out of touch since as anyone who makes music knows, you gotta have some idea of who your audience is.''

I think most bands do but mostly they make music for themselves and whoever 'gets it' will 'get it'. they could 17 or 30 and they could be accountants, students or junkies or whatever. And that specially applies for musics that are quite hard to categorize.

''The 'commercialisation' of indie? People were dead excited when the Smiths went Top 10 and were on Top Of The Pops, I suspect. Part of what 'killed indie' in the UK was the collapse of the compromised dictionary-definition of indie i.e. independently distributed under the weight of tiny dance labels and PWL.''

agreed but part of that was bands like the roses, who made such a commercialized version of indie that it, yes, it led to oasis and coldplay and so on.

''They crossed genres and united rockers and ravers - they were the second summer of love.''

you've been reding history books. stop it!

yeah i hate his assumption that you need a certain consumption of narcotics to 'get' this.

What a lucrative market they are huh?

sorry that should read most do but the best ones...

I hear they were all fighting with chains and then I am the Resurrection came on and they put them down and started raving together to the 4 minute guitar outro.

I was trying to make the point to that other chap that Spacemen were heavily influenced by narcotics when they wrote music and as such, their prospective audience was stroke is likely to have similar interests.

I think perhaps you may be presupposing I am against such interests. Where does it say so in my ranting that this is so?

Don't be such a dufus. My references to Spacemen were used to underline my point that the music of the Roses was stroke is more open to mass consumption (though through no 'fault' of the band or sinister marketing tactic) than that of the Spacemen since the Roses' music was arguably less obviously informed by getting fucked up.

Although having said that, now that I think on it... I'm not so sure about that last bit. The Roses were crazy for it... Perhaps it is more oblique in their musical trajectory than in that of the Spacemen though. Or perhaps getting fucked up was less important to the music.

Anyway, chill mothafucka.

That's what I had the problem with, because it's just not really true and there's no sensible defence for it unless you think Spacemen 3 are shit and are being sarcy, which I doubt. I am chilled but I just think it's funny.

In future I will try to be more clear but I presumed perhaps foolishly, that it would be apparent what was being said between the lines ie: this fucking point about the Roses music being less informed and tuned to narcotic intake.

And as a footnote, there is absolutely no way Spacemen made music without narcotics. No way.

You don't know they took drugs because of how the music sounds(this is impossible), you know because it's well reported.

A command or a suggestion? ;-)

I really couldn't care whether during recording Spacemen 3 took enough mind-altering substances to choke a horse or not, the point is that I don't need them myself to enjoy the end results. That they loved their candy is pretty clear; I'm hardly beholden to follow them.

Where are all those threads about dance music and E? I'm sure Ronan weighed in on those too.

they are the late 80s version of CSNY for sure.

david- now go and put a good rec on: like big black's 'Steelworker'.

Basically, they have a very, very, very over-inflated reputation here that doesn't correspond with what they've actually done, and that's something I guess that rankles people a lot, especially at this stage.

Always surprised that "Fools Gold" doesn't get a pass from haters, it's the best baggy song by a zillion miles, funky, minimal, deee-lite covering can

I really think the first album is pretty much flawless, in terms of guitar pop. If they hadn't released Second Coming, their mystique would be a little more understandable

have always liked "i wanna be adored" but it's nothiing that the bunnymen hadn't already done five years earlier. rest of the first album makes a good case for them being the missing link between the wonder stuff and dodgy

And now, the live TV broadcast you've all been waiting for. The Stone Roses!

...at Reading '96.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7IE3yhhR0xpXt_iP4NIt9nRkosjGswde

I didn’t really “get” the Sex Pistols influence with this band until I heard garage flowers

The worst concert ever on that stage.

Meanwhile, the best concert ever, on the other stage, at the exact same time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jst8yoqPTmo

that sounds like me singing along to that song in the car

I have an mp3 of Reni just going nuts on his set for like 8 minutes - holy cow is he talented - drum angel

I would quite like to hear that. I’ve always heard what an amazing drummer he is, but apparently the official releases don’t tell the whole story.

Please share it

Oh damn, I'm hearing Mani has passed on.

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/gary-mani-dead-stone-roses-32913693

Wow. I always confused him and Reni.

Fucking hell. RIP

Oh man. Terrible

Awful news. A total powerhouse of a bassist. He could play with Norman Watt-Roy-ish levels of unshowy swing, dextrous but soulful little runs, or big huge singleminded motorik droney business, sometimes on the same song (there's a few on XTRMNTR like that). Either way a major part of the records he played on.

One of the best. So much feel and skill.

ugh so young. he was the heart and soul of that group

R.I.P., we've deservedly had a lot of talk about Reni on this thread recently but Reni without Mani would be like Watts without Wyman. The rhythm section is what really transformed the Roses imo from another jangle guitar band to something rhythmically supple enough to ride the whole Summer of Love/Madchester wave.

(or maybe that was a different Roses thread, but recent Reni talk on ilm)

Faintly heard "She Bangs The Drums" on national news channel (very unusual) but didn't anticipate *this* being the reason. Damn. Playing that first LP to death at an impressionable age feels like some sort of (underacknowledged) formative experience and the bass player playing that rumbling riff that opens it will always be way cool.

I passed on buying the fools gold 12" like three times this year smh should have just grabbed it

This is a huge one for me. I fell into the Stone Roses trap. The rhythm section is the main reason. RIP

Absolutely one of the greatest bass players ever, RIP to a real one

The Stone Roses is one of the greatest albums of all-time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRswxxT3HQ8

I definitely remember that one UK magazine (can’t remember which) proclaimed s/t to be #1 on their list of best albums ever, circa 2001, and I’d never heard it, and after hearing it, I never for a second had a complaint about that assessment. RIP, great musician

definitely remember 'second coming' in (finally) '94 being vaguely shat upon for failing to be suitably monumental

it's still fine tho and fuck you 'love spreads' is a great single

beyond the impeccable stone roses s/t, turns into stone is almost as good, and his playing on xtrmntr is fantastic too. he really was one of the greats

it's still fine tho and fuck you 'love spreads' is a great single

tbf “love spreads is pretty good but there’s not much else to the album” was the critical consensus that you are railing against and offering as a counterarg 31 years later so

(imo the Help version recorded in 15 minutes with four guys in a room eliminated the need for the album, and speaks to what a waste those five years were for Mani/Reni playing together.)

a testament to what a spiriting colleague he must have been is that he recorded one (1) overdub on a Primal Scream record and they immediately booked him in for all their album cycle promo interviews

Love Spreads Help version was 5 guys in a room.

They had added Nigel Ipinson to the band by that time.

point still stands though....

looks like it wasn’t Reni either. the point slouches.

It’s pretty incredible the leap from the Pistols/Beatles racket they did with Hannett to the big round liquid gliding funk they got afterwards, Mani joining in the interim surely is partially responsible?

the best song on Second Coming (maybe the best Roses song full stop) imo is Begging You. Mani's magic moments on that are when the bass comes swooping down into the fast-forward rhythmic dustcloud like falling Jenga blocks.

I passed on buying the fools gold 12" like three times this year smh should have just grabbed it

― ok (D-40), Thursday, November 20, 2025 5:48 PM (five days ago) bookmarkflaglink

got it ^___^

Yay!

Is that the gold vinyl one? I have that, bought in 1990

The thing about Fool’s Gold is, it keeps getting longer, and it keeps getting better

gold’s sure a long road

Best song ever inspired by a Humphrey Bogart movie. (Though I think the only competition is that terrible "Key Largo" song.)

New Order, "In a Lonely Place".

Minutemen, "Badges"

"2HB" is a song written by Bryan Ferry and first recorded by Roxy Music for their 1972 debut album, Roxy Music.

Jon and Vangelis, "The Friends of Mr Cairo", which admittedly isn't very good in retrospect

Wow I didn't realize it was a whole subgenre

Tokyo Joe, another Bryan Ferry single...

Bernie Higgins “Key Largo”

Yeah mentioned that above tho I forgot who sang it. It's so bad.

Sham 69, "Angels with Dirty Faces" (more of a Cagney film I guess, Bogart has a supporting role)

Smithereens “In a Lonely Place” swipes lines from the movie