So, answer the bloody question already: is Ian Curtis an overbearing tuneless twat head that needed to be drowned out by higher guitars, or are Joy Division perfection incarnate?
Myself, I can't help but agree with the NYLPM post's assesment that if you believe anything other than Joy Division are classic as is, then you are just plain Wrong.
― Ally, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Gods. As most everyone else did, I'd bet, I came to them through New
Order, but thankfully my timing was such that 1) _Substance_ (the JD
one) had just come out around the time I got my first CD player and 2)
I had learned about the JD/NO connection around that time as well
through a quite good article on both of them in _Musician_ in 1988, of
all places. So while Ian's voice and the early sound threw me a bit (I
mean, you listen to _Brotherhood_ or the NO _Substance_ and then you
hear "Warsaw" and it's like, "Huh?"), it didn't take long for me to be
quietly enthralled. The rest followed naturally. I still am really *
really* jealous of a friend who got to see them in the UK in 1979 on a
visit. Lucky bastard.
"Transmission" in particular -- man. That song is a cold blue laser
light of power, and I can't put it any other way, really.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― , Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
CLASSIC CLASSIC CLASSIC. In every imaginable sense of the word.
(Although, I will argue that many of the songs are so brilliant in
and of themselves that they can be interpreted in alomst any manner
imaginable and still be fantastic.)
― Dan Perry, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― DG, Wednesday, 4 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Wait, I think Tom thinks Joy Division are crap but for a handful of
songs. Or maybe that's Fred. Or maybe I made this person up.
― Ally, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Otis Wheeler, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Simone, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tanya, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― philT, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Omar, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Patrick, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
but that's the only joy division track i need and i've listened to a
lot. they mostly strike me as plodding and entirely uninteresting,
largely due to curtis's monotone. i've never "connected" with them,
so here's the question: is there anyone here who rates them classic
and doesn't relate to the lyrics? or who gets by on them for purely
musical reason, i.e. melody and backing music?
― fred solinger, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I'm normally a big one for lyrics but I think Ian Curtis' were pretty
dire - all that Ballard-rip-off stuff and the existential pomp of it
all. Salvaged a bit by his voice, which I do like a lot. I don't even
think "Atmosphere" has good lyrics. "Love Will Tear Us Apart" has
BRILLIANT lyrics which from an artistic p.o.v. is the saddest thing
about his death - that it seems like a breakthrough in terms of
writing humane but unflinching stuff about relationships. But
lyrically, generally, dud.
But the music! Bloody hell - the drive and claustrophobia and
dynamics and Martin Hannett's production....it's extraordinary. A lot
of it is Hannett and I think it's a shame that AFAIK I'm the first
person to mention him in this thread. But that band could motor -
"Dead Souls", for example, where the lyrics are pretty much
irrelevant next to the huge concrete smack of the music. No, for the
― Tom, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I love the sound. I love the feel. I love the way Ian Curtis sings.
Simple as that. I don't understand how you can love Atmosphere for
its atmosphere but dislike the rest of their songs, which have
― Steven James, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
actually, it seems the qualities i admire in "atmosphere" share
similarities with the qualities of the earlier cure tracks that i
like, e.g. "all cats are grey," "faith," and "the same deep water as
you." all have warm, heavy basslines and occasional shimmering
keyboards and thudding drums, beautiful instrumentation clashing with
the morosity of the lyrics and singer. make of that what you will!
Perhaps they were conjoined twins, and after the operation everyone
involved decided it would be best if one of the little tots were
shipped across the ocean, so everyone could get on with their lives
and forget about the trauma of the birth. ;-)
Oh, and Joy Division? Classic. But Tanya has had the audacity to
steal my Ian Curtis joke from Duel, so she had better watch her step
in the future. If I see her, I will be forced to kick her ass and
steal her boyfriend.
― Nicole, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― E. B. Krayzay, Thursday, 5 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
kris: you might prefer the earlier joy division where curtis used a
more expressive vocal style.
― sundar subramanian, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
IC is gloomy: the band (by then) are anything but gloomy
this only applies to closer and maybe (from memory) "atmosphere" — and of course the jangly OMD-tribute "love will tear us
apart", a hugely overrated release that would have been immeasurably improved if Dan Perry had supplied lyrics (cf sexual
healing classic or dud)
to me, curtis and the others were growing apart anyway (they were outgrowing HIM — this being an unspoken element in the
whatever surrounding his death)
when it first came out, Kumar, percussionist in the band I then played guitar in, who was JD-besotted, explained that it was a
great title because it meant two things, depending on how you pronounced it:
closer soft s: i.e. the last LP they would make now Curtis was gone
closer hard s: i.e. closer to what the record they meant to make all along
― mark s, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I saw this new vinyl record yesterday called Warsaw, which would seem
to be all early JD recordings. Has anyone heard this ? Is it a for-
fanatics-only kind of deal ? I like the early songs on Substance a
― Patrick, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Vic Funk, Friday, 6 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
ned: i actually got into no via jd. as a rocker, i hated no growing
up. i was introduced to jd by a fan of emo and post-rock. i'd been
curious for a while because of all the awestruck rock criticism,
which often made strange comparisons to the velvet underground, whom
i liked. once i heard _closer_ i listened to nothing else for a
week. after i got all the jd records i bought the first few no
― sundar subramanian, Saturday, 7 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Heard the live version of Transmission off Still where the
instrumentation starts to fall off and all you hear is Curtis
DANCE DANCE DANCE DANCE DANCE TO THE RADIO.
Damn near gave me nightmares. Classic.
― JM, Saturday, 7 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I saw them live 4 times in 1979/80, and the Preston gig album kinda
sums it up - you never knew if they were going to be either awful and
beset with equipment problems or overwhelmingly great. Frequently
they would veer from one extreme to the other, and it was always
touch and go whether Ian would make it through the set. I still think
this is how live music should be though - LIVE!
There will be more live album releases, but I hope not too many. I've
heard rumours of cleaned-up radio broadcasts of the Paris and
Amsterdam shows, which have been available as bootlegs for ages. I
hope one or both is released, and then let's leave it at that.
― Dr. C, Monday, 9 April 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
If anyone was wondering how good JD could be live, then get this and
don't bother with the live half of 'Still'/'Preston'/disc 4 of 'Heart
― Dr. C, Thursday, 24 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alasdair, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― tarden, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Mike Hanley, Saturday, 26 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
1)The mawkish, morbid 'Cult of Ian' that emerged following his
suicide ('he died for you') was more than a Cobain-like outburst of
fan mourning. It was openly encouraged by Factory eg the cover
of 'Closer', the Anton Corbijn video for 'Atmosphere' (which even Rob
Gretton found dubious), and 'Anthony' Wilson's attempts to position
Curits alongside the likes of Hendrix and Jones in the pantheon of
dead rock geniuses. All highly questionable ("the flogging of a
corpse" Paul Morley).
2) The band flirted with neo-fascism, in style if not substance; 'you
all forget Rudolf Hess', the choice of name (and then New Order).
Curtis, a complex figure, was very right-wing and, according to his
widow, possibly racist. In that light the despair of his lyrics, and
longing for 'purity' can emerge in a very different, and sometimes
3)They were sonic visionaries however. Sumner listened to Chic,
Curtis Kraftwerk and Krautrock. Hooks low-bass rumblings allied to
Morris's astonishing drumming created a sound that will endure. They
shone like diamonds. As a 16 year old I heard 'Love will tear us
apart' on the radio and within weeks had left for Manchester by train
with my savings to buy as many Joy Division records I could
find/afford. They were a life-changing force and I will always
― Stevo, Sunday, 27 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ally, Tuesday, 29 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Stevo, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Mike Hanley, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Mike - sadly, Stevo is correct - it's not possible to ignore the fact
that JD used fascist imagery. Look at the cover of the Ideal for
Living EP, the content of No Love Lost, Leaders of Men, They Walked
Maybe you can USE fascist imagery without BEING a fascist. I'd say
they were pretty thoughtless, young and stupid, that's all.
― Dr. C, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
This thread pop up on Usenet every now and then, and to give
you the answer first: NO!!! This thread, however, did not
start on Usenet or Internet. It started in the british music
press more than 15 years ago, and since Joy Division gave
very few interviews the rumours were allowed to grow in the
press. Here's a few points to clear up things:
> The version of "At a later date" that appear on the
"Short Circuit" compilation opens with Bernard shouting
"You all forgot Rudolf Hess!". At that time Rudolf Hess,
83 years old, had been imprisoned at the Spandau prison
in East Berlin for more than 30 years. You don't have to
be a nazi to feel sympathy for a sick old man that was
heavily guarded by some 100 KGB soldiers.
> According to Fernando Lopez-de-Victoria: Bernard (and
Ian in some obscure interview) has noted that they like the
regalia and art (?) of the Nazi's, but in no way liked their
philosophy. This can be seen in some of their artwork,
> Bernard made the design for "An Ideal For Living", it
included a drawing of a Hitler-jugend-look-alike drummer
boy. But on the same fold-out sleeve there's a famous picture
from the Warsaw ghetto during 2WW: A young Jewish boy
standing with his hands up in the air being guarded by a
nazi storm-trooper. Now, is that good nazi propaganda ?
> The name Joy Division was associated with nazism,
journalists didn't like it (the same thing happened with New
Order). As you can read somewhere else in this FAQ "Joy
Division" really has a connection to nazism: It was chosen
from a book that describes the horrors in a nazi camp during
2WW, not the prosperous future...
"Through the wire-screen the eyes,
of those standing outside, looked in at her,
as into the cage of some rare creature in a zoo.
In the hand of one of the assistants
she saw the same instrument which they had,
that morning, inserted deep into her body.
She shuddered instinctively.
No life at all in the House of Dolls.
No love lost."
This verse from Cetinsky's "The House Of Dolls" was included
on the version of "No love lost" from recording session (2).
The weird thing is that many other punk-bands used much more
direct nazi symbolism in their relation with the press, and
still got away with it!!
Though the press never got to interview Joy Division about this
topic they could have checked Joy Division's lyrics. If they had
they wouldn't have found a shred of nazi propaganda, on the
contrary! Take for example "They walked in line":
"All dressed in uniforms so fine,
they drank and killed to pass the time.
Wearing the shame of all their crimes,
with measured steps, they walked in line
They carried pictures of their wives
and number tags to prove their lives,
and made it through the whole machine
with dirty hearts and hands washed clean."
And, to really tear down the nazi rumour: Joy Division have
participated in a Rock Against Racism benefit concert (at
Kelly's in Manchester 12 October 1978) and an Amnesty
International benefit concert (at Eric's in Liverpool 3 May
To summarize: I can't find any evidence that JD has shown any
sympathy with fascism/nazism, only the contrary.
so as not to plagarise.
Sure you can.
― JM, Wednesday, 30 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Stevo, Friday, 1 June 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
i always found this argument dubious. given the number of oppressed
political prisoners in the world, why feel special sympathy for a
nazi? ic might have made the statement to mean "you all forgot what
rudolf hess did as a nazi" or something though.
― sundar subramanian, Saturday, 2 June 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
The funny thing about the liner notes is that the kids next door have
formed a ska punk band. They sound awful, but I think they're using
a riff from a JD song in one of their songs.
― youn, Friday, 29 June 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tom Sanderson, Wednesday, 26 June 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link
Damning with faint praise here, I think.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 26 June 2002 00:00 (seventeen years ago) link
I am attached to the idea of Unknown Pleasures and Closer being albums, so the thought of having their tracks simply included on a set like Hear & Soul doesn't quite do it for me.
― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 14:26 (sixteen years ago) link
― Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 14:51 (sixteen years ago) link
― Rockist Scientist, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 14:55 (sixteen years ago) link
I put my TRUST in you.
― _Rudipherous_, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 07:17 (one year ago) link
Caring about betrayal is old-fashioned though because people are generally complete fucking shit in 2018.
Sometimes people are upset about things and turn to music an alcohol and the internet, and that's okay. I'm not the kind of pussy who grew up with Safe Spaces. I'm a different kind of pussy.
― _Rudipherous_, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 07:20 (one year ago) link
POLL Will Tear Us Apart – ILM Artist Poll #86 - JOY DIVISION – New Order solo or other groups Poll (aka the Electronic poll) – a NEW ORDER (#37) supplement poll --- Results Thread
― the future is now, Thursday, 11 January 2018 06:18 (one year ago) link
18. A Means To An End 197 Points 6 Votes
<Such a great poll>
― the future is now, Thursday, 11 January 2018 06:23 (one year ago) link
Last ILM artist poll...
(Until the next one opens)
― the future is now, Thursday, 11 January 2018 06:28 (one year ago) link
― How do I feel a complaint? (_Rudipherous_), Saturday, 13 January 2018 17:51 (one year ago) link
Gave Unknown Pleasures a run for the first time in about five years last night, and I feel like it's kind of way better and infinitely more resonating than when I first heard it in my early twenties.
Just fantastic music.
― he doesn't need to be racist about it though. (Austin), Saturday, 13 January 2018 19:51 (one year ago) link
The way they released their music is a source of constant wonder to me. I knew Love Will Tear Us Apart and Atmosphere were non-album tracks but I never realized until recently that Dead Souls was also a non-album track, despite having listened to it dozens of times.
― the word dog doesn't bark (anagram), Saturday, 13 January 2018 21:25 (one year ago) link
Yeah that was always curious to me. Transmission another one. Most of their famous songs aren’t on the proper albums.
― circa1916, Saturday, 13 January 2018 21:30 (one year ago) link
Factory used to do that because it was considered a rip off to put already released songs on albums. That was pretty common with indie labels in the UK at least til the mid-80s. Sarah records were particularly militant about it
― Colonel Poo, Saturday, 13 January 2018 21:42 (one year ago) link
Kind of a rip off for the consumer though? Having to buy multiple singles instead of throwing down on a full LP that includes two singles or whatever + more songs. IDK, didn’t grow up in the singles era.
― circa1916, Saturday, 13 January 2018 21:49 (one year ago) link
The thinking was that fans would buy everything anyway, so it was actually giving them better value for money by putting out songs as singles that didn't later reappear on the related album.
― the word dog doesn't bark (anagram), Saturday, 13 January 2018 21:53 (one year ago) link
Right. Yeah, I guess it depends on avid fan v. casual.
― circa1916, Saturday, 13 January 2018 21:57 (one year ago) link
The casual fan might well just buy the odd single and not the album so they'd be happy with the arrangement. Meanwhile, yeah, the serious fans would buy everything so it was a good deal for them to have no overlap of tracks. But of course it wasn't quite that neat and I'm sure plenty of people did prefer having singles on albums. You sometimes had them added as bonus tracks on the cassette, where there was more room.
― Alba, Saturday, 13 January 2018 21:59 (one year ago) link
And if you could wait then singles would often be collected on something like Hatful of Hollow, which was sold for budget price at first I think.
― Alba, Saturday, 13 January 2018 22:01 (one year ago) link
Yeah, was gonna say, all evens out in the end with the singles comps.
― circa1916, Saturday, 13 January 2018 22:05 (one year ago) link
I used to think of them as a singles band because like a lot of americans of my age, my introduction to Joy Division was Substance, which was released with some fanfair and easier to find than the actual albums.
― dan selzer, Saturday, 13 January 2018 23:34 (one year ago) link
tbh I still only own Substance.
oh wait I do have Still.
― Colonel Poo, Saturday, 13 January 2018 23:50 (one year ago) link
substance I think was released by a major label. my first introduction to joy division when I was like, 14 or 15, courtesy of a review in rolling stone of all fucking places
― akm, Sunday, 14 January 2018 00:56 (one year ago) link
Qwest, which was Quincy Jones imprint on Warner Brothers. He signed New Order and got Joy Division.
― dan selzer, Sunday, 14 January 2018 01:04 (one year ago) link
The whole thing with standalone singles that didn't appear on the albums was a bit of a hangover from the '60s where it was mostly standard practice, at least in the UK. Plenty of bands in the '70s did this too, and it wasn't just indie labels doing it.
― Full of bile and Blue Nile denial (Turrican), Sunday, 14 January 2018 01:07 (one year ago) link
My introduction to JD was through The Crow graphic novel (lol) my older brother had when we were kids. Full on song lyrics printed between chapters or something. Book is way corny but it hit me hard at 12ish. Didn’t actually get to hear them until a few years later. Took me a while to make sense of it. Sprouting young industrial child in the late 90s. NIN and like WaxTrax stuff was the benchmark and JD wasn’t at all what I expected. Was a small world for me at the time.
― circa1916, Sunday, 14 January 2018 01:50 (one year ago) link
heh I don't like much else on it but I actually bought The Crow soundtrack specifically for the Dead Souls cover. (I already had the JAMC song).
― Colonel Poo, Sunday, 14 January 2018 01:52 (one year ago) link
Oh yeah, I promptly bought that. I guess that NIN cover of Dead Souls was really the first JD related thing I heard.
― circa1916, Sunday, 14 January 2018 01:55 (one year ago) link
It was the first time I heard that song, by anybody! I were but a slip of a lad
― Colonel Poo, Sunday, 14 January 2018 02:08 (one year ago) link
it had never actually occurred to me until just now, but the first thing I ever heard by Joy Division was the nine inch nails cover of dead souls.that means that nine inch nails was my introduction to Joy Division, Aphex Twin and Coil (the 2 latter through their work on further down the spiral).
― silverfish, Sunday, 14 January 2018 04:17 (one year ago) link
Oh man, same. NIN was definitely a stepping stone for me and others in my circle growing up.
― circa1916, Sunday, 14 January 2018 05:39 (one year ago) link
In 1987 my older sister's friend left a dubbed-from-vinyl tape copy of Still in my sister's room (sister later told me she played it for approximately 2 minutes and was like "ugh, no") so I borrowed it for a few hours and dubbed myself a copy. Her friend found out I had done this and was livid, since I was a grubby Cure fan and not worthy of access to such a rarity. She wouldn't tell me what the song titles were! Months later she relented and showed me the vinyl when we were hanging out at her house after school. I remember being very impressed with how heavy it was. And writing down the track listing on a scrap of paper.
― erry red flag (f. hazel), Sunday, 14 January 2018 18:23 (one year ago) link
my JD origin story is that in the midst of a period in high school where my favorite bands were dave matthews band and ben folds five, i somehow ran across a magazine that talked about how joy division were legendary and awesome. so before my shift at long john silvers i stopped by the cd store to pick up Closer (all of this feels like several lifetimes ago). i remember being taken aback by curtis' voice - i had never heard anything like that in music, to that point, and i didn't find it bad so much as just confusing. i made the mistake of consulting with my closest friend who was into music - a britpop guy who would drive an hour and a half to the hometown of Rush Limbaugh and buy imported copies of Q. i asked him if he thought joy division was good. he looked confused for a second, himself, then said that they were awful. i moved on to listening to manic street preachers and kind of forgot about JD til i picked them back up in college with more experienced ears and thought they were amazing. it turns out that the JD-hating britpop friend was a real, actual pathological liar, the only one i've ever met. there was an early 2000s band called The Cansecos, and one night he claimed that it was made up of baseball's Jose and Ozzie Canseco. he refused to back down on this claim. he also said that he helped to produce Oasis' Standing on the Shoulder [sic] of Giants, and refused to back down on that either. not in a funny way, but in a very frightening way, week after week, even after getting into real fights about the obvious lie and losing friends over it. anyway, given the initial look of befuddlement when i asked him about joy division, i'm pretty sure he had never heard a note by them and couldn't remember if Q were fans or not, either.
― Karl Malone, Sunday, 14 January 2018 18:33 (one year ago) link
lol those are amazing lies!
― new noise, Sunday, 14 January 2018 18:49 (one year ago) link
A bit like the dude I met that insisted that Nick Lowe was the bass player for Mott the Hoople. In a broad Yorkshire accent.
― Mark G, Sunday, 14 January 2018 20:10 (one year ago) link
I don't think he was a liar as such, I think he was beamed down from an alternative universe.
― Mark G, Sunday, 14 January 2018 20:12 (one year ago) link
My first exposure to Joy Division was Paul Young's cover of Love Will Tear Us Apart, I must confess that as an 11 year old I loved it.
― nate woolls, Monday, 15 January 2018 10:15 (one year ago) link
i think the first time i consciously heard a joy div song was the cover of "love will tear us apart" by swans in the early nineties which i still find better than the original.
― Ich bin kein Berliner (alex in mainhattan), Monday, 15 January 2018 12:43 (one year ago) link
Same here (though I was 12) - I still have the 7"! This was 1984, next I bought Substance when it came out and only then came the albums proper.
― willem, Monday, 15 January 2018 12:57 (one year ago) link
I can't recall when exactly I heard JD for the first time but I distinctly remember the afternoon where my 13 y.o. self discovered that two of his very favorite bands, JD and NO, were connected. I carefully looked at both of my 'Substance' CDs dumbstruck, mouth agape.
― licorice oratorio (baaderonixx), Monday, 15 January 2018 14:17 (one year ago) link
I love them so much
― Trϵϵship, Sunday, 23 September 2018 00:30 (ten months ago) link
This is great! I'm in a Macclesfield group on Facebook, and someone put up a picture of his dad's work Christmas drinks from the 70s. He worked at Macclesfield Unemployment Office and Ian Curtis from Joy Division is one of the colleagues. pic.twitter.com/JbPGHsC7f1— Geoff Lloyd (@GeoffLloyd) December 25, 2018
― ogmor, Tuesday, 25 December 2018 22:03 (seven months ago) link
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 25 December 2018 22:09 (seven months ago) link
just slightly popular with the ladies there
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Wednesday, 26 December 2018 06:50 (seven months ago) link
pic is exuding powerful 1970s sitcom energy
― umsworth (emsworth), Wednesday, 26 December 2018 08:39 (seven months ago) link
it is extremely weird to see ian curtis as an actual human being and not a monochrome martyr
― H00kup with Jaundice Singles!! (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 26 December 2018 10:32 (seven months ago) link
and there's more!
More from that same event. pic.twitter.com/z5PmPcFe8k— Jake Rudh (@JakeRudh) December 25, 2018
― H00kup with Jaundice Singles!! (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 26 December 2018 10:33 (seven months ago) link
― Totally different head. Totally. (Austin), Wednesday, 26 December 2018 16:07 (seven months ago) link
hey. my friend Nate the K interviewed Jon Savage on WFMU to promote his (Savage's) new oral history of Joy Division and he invited me on to talk and play some "rarities". You can listen here:
― dan selzer, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 13:52 (three months ago) link
Was just going to post about that, nice set! I meant to jot down the name of a power pop group you mentioned who changed their sound after hearing JD but it slipped my mind. Could you repeat that (I know I could pull up the archived stream but...)?
Anyone read the Savage book?
― early rejecter, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 17:02 (three months ago) link
Just finished it, was an enjoyable breeze, but no big revelations really apart from a pic of this crazy note that IC made out to Gretton some time in March/April 1980 after the completion of Closer.
"Judged purely on my own terms, and not to be interpreted as an opinion on reflection of mass media or public taste, but a criticism of my own esoteric, elitist mind of which the mysteries of life are very few and beside which the grace of God has deemed to indicate in a vision the true nature of all things, plus the fact that everyone else are a sneaky taping load of tossers, decree that this LP is a disaster, Ian Curtis"
― MaresNest, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 17:11 (three months ago) link
I was referring to Disco Zombies...compare the first few songs and the singles (first songs on the Drums Over London compilation) to the unreleased live stuff later on the album.
Not the best example, but, see also The Lines, compare White Night (melancholy power-pop )to On the Air through Cool Snap (angular post-punk) to Nerve Pylon/Transit and the material on the two LPs which are much more atmospherically produced.
Also compare The Outsiders to the Sound.
Also bigger bands, like The Cure definitely. U2. Simple Minds. Simple Minds is a bit of a different thing as they went from straight punk to a totally Roxy Music by way of Magazine thing, then got the Joy Division and Kraftwerk bug around the same time, then mixed it all up in their own way for a while till they lost their bass player and their plot.
― dan selzer, Wednesday, 15 May 2019 19:10 (three months ago) link
I just finished Savage's book myself and honestly I think it hit me harder than I would have expected beforehand. It really has a feeling of a final accounting, now that so many principals beyond the surviving members are gone (Wilson, Hannett, Gretton -- besides New Order past/present, only Alan Erasmus and Peter Saville remain from the original Factory core, and Erasmus just ain't talking). Even though Sumner/Hook/Morris's thoughts are from the mid-2000s documentary interviews it's almost like, what more can they say? Deborah Curtis as well, and Annik Honore is also now gone. The crushing regret and sadness everyone has over what they did and didn't do vis-a-vis helping Ian is huge -- there's a lot of recognition, especially from his bandmates, about how they were just too young to really see or understand what was going on, how their upbringing had shaped and socialized them to react in different ways. And I think the observation that crops up a lot about how Ian was a people-pleaser in the end, in combination with his epilepsy, the prescriptions he took...it's not my place to speculate in the end, really, but you sense how, not that it HAD to end for him as it did, but that you sense, however through a glass darkly, why it could be so. It's very unsettling in the end, I'm glad it exists, but there's something ultimately terrifying here that that makes the music that remains so crushingly sad -- in a way that I don't know if I will ever feel as strongly about re other groups or musicians who have faced similar. And that's not to discount what happened to them at all, just that maybe I'm still too shaped by the inevitable mythmaking I experienced at a young age (first learned about Curtis in early 1988, when I was still 16 and had never heard a note) that even the three times as old me feels ill at ease.
― Ned Raggett, Monday, 24 June 2019 18:36 (one month ago) link