― Jimmy Mod: NOIZE BOARD GRIL COMPARISON ANALYST (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 14:43 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 14:59 (seventeen years ago) link
No way. Laura MacFarlane is a great, expressive drummer; perfect for their early sound and totally underrated in her contribution. I don't think her style would have suited the bigger, more rock approach of Dig Me Out and afterward. Indeed, listening to the ninetynine CDs, you hear Laura going in a more experimental direction at the same time S-K become more of a rock band.
Count me among those who heard diminishing returns in the last few S-K albums and isn't broken up over their hiatus. I do think it's wise for them to leave their options open. If anyone can pull of a Mission of Burma-esque seamless comeback, it's them.
― mike a (mike a), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 15:04 (seventeen years ago) link
yeah, that's CLEARLY what i was saying, good job.
it's a tough one but here's my pox:
get up!modern girlyouth decaylight rail coyoteballad of a ladymanoh! quarter to threecall the doctorstep asideburn, don't freeze
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 15:46 (seventeen years ago) link
The Hot Rock is loopy, dense, and the record that got me really into the band, I just couldn't get enough of the way the guitars and the vocals played off of each other without just turning into chaos or ever losing the rhythm. "Burn, Don't Freeze" unquestionably goes in my POX, and it's the song I use to try and sell people on the band. And I haven't looked up the POO Sleater Kinney thread, but I know "Get Up" was all over that shit, so homie don't even play.
All Hands on the Bad One was the first one I heard and the first one I bought, on the strength of catching "You're No Rock n' Roll Fun" on MTV2 back in ye olde college dorm. It took me forever to get into it - really till I got it on vinyl, actually. I think this has to do with tracklisting - it feels overlong for some reason that I've never quite placed. So along with One Beat it's definitely a "grower" for the fan....but look at what you get: "Rock n' Roll Fun," their straightest and best shiny pop number, "Youth Decay," "Milkshake n' Honey" for pete's sake! There's some great material here. I'll concede that there's a stretch where it starts to feel just a bit same-y, which is where we come to...
One Beat my least favorite of their LPs, but, as I said above, a grower - I can't put my finger on exactly what doesn't work here, but there's a certain roteness to some of the performances, and certainly there's a high concentration of wince-worthy lyrics (especially the Bush and 9/11 stuff - one of S-K's strengths was subtlety in dealing with personal conflicts, but somehow with political conflicts they turn into teenagers with Michael Moore patches on their bookbags)... But! All that said! You get the magnificent "Oh!", with its singalong "oh-wa-oh" hook and that PERFECT Moog line... the marching climax of "Prisstina," and of course "Hollywood Ending," which picks the Dig Me Out sound back up for one last ass-kicking mosh-starter. Throughout, it's the songs with the fun new production touches that stick in the mind the most - does that mean the songs aren't strong? I dunno. If they'd broken up after this record it would have felt really anticlimactic, and it would never be my suggested jumping-on point, but it's a complete record and by NO means a dud.
And then, of course, The Woods, which manages to balance a mile-high wall of rock-and-roll thunderhead (as exemplified by "The Fox," one of the best openings to any rock album I've ever heard) with reinvigorated, just-slightly-tweaked explorations of their old strengths, e.g. "Jumpers" and "Modern Girl." When people say it's a completely new sound for them, I understood what they mean but I don't agree - it's an expansion of their sound, with some amazing new chops that I frankly never expect to see at a band at their sixth/seventh record. (New tricks, yes; tightened-up technique, yes - actual new powers, no.) As such, I think it's a wonderful note to go out on, in the sense that it showcases them doing everything they could do, in most cases at the peak of their playing.
Simon H. is right on in calling it cohesive, and to that I would add that it's concise - it delivers its punches one after another and doesn't overstay its welcome, which is probably the main thing that keeps All Hands and One Beat as near-great growers: they could both stand to lose about two songs each, and would be substantially tighter for it.
Edward III writes:
On the other hand, by increasing the suck-to-sweet ratio of their catalog a band can make it more difficult for future generations to find a proper entry point for appreciation.
I certainly know what you're getting at here; I think we all know the difficulty of wanting to get into a band but being stymied by a parade of dubious-looking records you've never heard of in the used bin. "I know these can't all be good," we think. However, it seems like a kind of weak argument against making more records, especially given the context of an indie band like Sleater-Kinney, whose new fans are going to come from word-of-mouth, older sisters and brothers, and magazine writeups about how if you like Band X of Today you totally need to go listen to Dig Me Out, The Hot Rock and/or The Woods. Once you're a fan, imperfect records like One Beat can work as growers - you find things to love in them and recognize them as part of the overall story of your new favorite band. Entry-point albums are great, and tend to be the overall best records (although there's plenty of exceptions to that one), but great bands will end up making great records that are not great entry points, I think.
Time for breakfast!
― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:04 (seventeen years ago) link
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:05 (seventeen years ago) link
― gear (gear), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:15 (seventeen years ago) link
― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:15 (seventeen years ago) link
Out of curiosity I just checked and it gets better.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:17 (seventeen years ago) link
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:22 (seventeen years ago) link
― yer mam! (yer mam!), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:27 (seventeen years ago) link
― Quinn (quinn), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:31 (seventeen years ago) link
― M. V. (M.V.), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:35 (seventeen years ago) link
― gear (gear), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:40 (seventeen years ago) link
As a neutral observer, I don't read it like that at all. One early poster said something to that effect, but most of their later albums have gotten praise from one quarter or another. The pre-Janet first album seems "not to count." Going by the POX thread, either it or All Hands are the bad ones.
(xpost, and now people are liking it, too)
― pleased to mitya (mitya), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:41 (seventeen years ago) link
― milo z (mlp), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 16:42 (seventeen years ago) link
mitya: As a neutral observer, I don't read it like that at all.
OK, maybe I'm a little defensive. But:
It's about time. They should've wrapped it up with The Hot Rock.I didn't even like The Woods that much.I didn't like it at allthe growth stopped around All Hands.i can't really remember nearly any of their songs from All Hands onI find late period S-K full of sound and fury yet signifying naughtthey should've split after Dig Me Out.Albums released after The Hot Rock range from okay to almost great, but are inessential.
Taken out of context, of course, and many of the people I'm quoting make IMO fabulous points about the band (Edward III is dead-on about the Hot Rock's undercurrent of dread and the fascination of the resulting tension). I guess I just figure that while the spotlight is on Sleater-Kinney it's my best chance to try and ramble a bunch of incoherent crap about how good their near-great albums are (and how flat-out great The Woods is), for the benefit of adoring future archive-searchers of ILM and Doctor Casino fans generally.
And I definitely feel like the "they've jumped the shark" theme has been a big part of discussion of Sleater-Kinney in the 2000's - like they represent some sort of indie niche dinosaur band that we didn't have to take seriously as a major part of the music scene anymore. The record needs to be set straight: they continued to push themselves as a band, even on the records where they supposedly didn't, and the results were positive if admittedly mixed on a couple of them.
― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 17:23 (seventeen years ago) link
Before this thread started, the only S-K I'd heard were "The Fox," "Wilderness," and "What's Mine Is Yours," which I sought out shortly after The Woods was released, based on whatever reveiew I saw. So it must have been a pretty strong review, given that I'd ignored the band up to that point.
This has been kind of a fun exercise for me today, starting from (basically) zero and working through the catalog in one sitting. Not often that you (well, me, anyway) gets to do that anymore.
― pleased to mitya (mitya), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 17:37 (seventeen years ago) link
― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 17:54 (seventeen years ago) link
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 17:56 (seventeen years ago) link
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 17:58 (seventeen years ago) link
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:01 (seventeen years ago) link
yes! i just put it on cuz i had to hear it after making up my pox.
xpost: yeah, the all hands songs work better as mixtape material than jostled up against each other. but the (admitted) didacticism of those songs doesn't really bother me -- there are some good punky lines scattered in there ("i'm so sick of tests, go ahead and flunk my ass") and the tunes are nice and spiky. i actually think the swallowed-words-as-eating-disorder metaphor on "youth decay" works well, i just don't like the title.
but it's true that "eye cream and thigh cream, how 'bout a get high cream?" is possibly the worst opening line on any record by a band i love.
― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:03 (seventeen years ago) link
And then you don't even have to listen to side two if you don't want to.
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:08 (seventeen years ago) link
Hm - is that last post really on the S-K thread?
― the pinefox (the pinefox), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:10 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:11 (seventeen years ago) link
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:14 (seventeen years ago) link
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:15 (seventeen years ago) link
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:32 (seventeen years ago) link
There's a tendency for a band's latter works to get a consensus nod as "great" when in fact there are stronger earlier works - it's just how the indie system works, latter albums get more press and sell more. Sometimes history corrects itself, but sometimes the same lines get repeated over and over. I've been burned a couple times picking up a band's "definitive" work and not being too impressed, only to find later that 2 or 3 albums prior they hit their peak. That said, the Interweb has changed this a bit, you can get a hold of an entire discography in an afternoon and figure out what's good yourself. Just saying that if the first thing I ever heard from Sleater Kinney was The Woods or All Hands On The Bad One I probably wouldn't go poking around any further in the pile...
re: X should just break up - Well in truth it's all Monday morning quarterbacking innit? Though the general progression is usually entropic, nobody can really tell when a band's dead, dying, or on the verge of a major breakthrough. There really is no argument for not making a record, you never know what's going to happen.
But, alas, kvetching is fun!
I wouldn't get bent out of shape if someone said The Fall should've broken up after Dragnet. It's not like you've got that time machine working yet and even if you did, the band's not likely to obey your call for their cessation unless you said hey I'm from the future and they were intimidated by your sci-fi prowess and decided better break up now rather than face the potential scourge of angry mobs of future time travellers...
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:32 (seventeen years ago) link
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:35 (seventeen years ago) link
(x-post)
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:37 (seventeen years ago) link
There's a tendency for a band's latter works to get a consensus nod as "great" when in fact there are stronger earlier works - it's just how the indie system works, latter albums get more press and sell more. - ok i'm not sure where exactly this statement might apply but decidedly not to indie in the united states. -- j blount (jamesbloun...)
I'd rather listen to Bad Moon Rising than Daydream Nation or Goo. Do you think Cat Power is going to be remembered for What Would The Community Think rather than You Are Free or (god forfend) The Greatest?
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 18:53 (seventeen years ago) link
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:10 (seventeen years ago) link
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:11 (seventeen years ago) link
(Not to break up the flow, but - anything to salvage from the first, self-titled LP? Not a word about it yet...)
― pleased to mitya (mitya), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:17 (seventeen years ago) link
Just saying that if the first thing I ever heard from Sleater Kinney was The Woods or All Hands On The Bad One I probably wouldn't go poking around any further in the pile...
Well, I can sort of understand that and it's your opinion after all. I think a lot of people got an instant "holy shit, this kicks ass!" reaction off The Woods, and certainly not all of them were previous fans shocked by a new direction - my friend Indy got into the band through this album. All Hands is certainly more of a fan's album, but then, I dunno - I just finished up listening to it and it's pretty solid. I could see somebody buying it and it being the only thing they needed from the band for a long while - that's what happened for me, after all! Whereas Dig Me Out is the kind of album where if you love it you immediately go "What else do they have that I can buy?"
Incidentally, my heart goes out to Tim Ellison for steadfastedly discussing only Beatles '65 in this thread and leaving it up to the reader to determine whether it's all meant as a complex analogy to the tracklist of All Hands On the Bad One, or if he just really wants to talk about Beatles '65. OTM about "Mr. Moonlight" and "Rock N Roll Music" in any case.
mitya - somebody was upping "A Real Man" upthread - I guess this is the next record for me to listen back through in my Sleater-Kinney mourning period. Will comment later tonight...
― Doctor Casino (Doctor Casino), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:23 (seventeen years ago) link
― gear (gear), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:31 (seventeen years ago) link
anyway, i think it's a little hard to classify the singing. it has punk in it, and metal, and that detached indie cool (especially carrie), but can also be pretty in a surprisingly conventional way (although even then there's always a sense that corin is sort of barely restraining herself). i'm not sure how well either one of them can carry a tune, per se, but they're some of my favorite singers.
― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:42 (seventeen years ago) link
How about outside yr indie fishbowl?
you think pavement are going to be remembered for slanted + enchanted rather than terror twilight?
That would be the difference between a "tendency" and a "certainty."
do you think evol is namechecked more than nyc ghosts?
No, but I've read loads of press focusing on Daydream Nation and beyond as the locus of their "great work" and heard current SY fans dismiss the earlier "amatuer" stuff.
do you think chronic town is held in higher regard than around the sun?
How many people who own an REM CD even know what the hell Chronic Town is?
when people talk about patti smith they always talk about gung ho but how often do they bring up horses?
Well, Patti was always on a major label, so not really applicable here...
and why do you think people go on and on about candy apple grey while zen arcade toils in obscurity? why is 'waiting room' fugazi's least known song?
I don't know, why do you think they call it dope?
how come when people go on about sleater-kinney they always talk about the woods but never bring up 'i wanna be yr joey ramone' or dig me out?'
Time will tell...
"A Real Man" = classic
that won't hold any water upon closer examination
But it sure was fun!
― Edward III (edward iii), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:44 (seventeen years ago) link
― morris pavilion (samjeff), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:45 (seventeen years ago) link
-- gear (speed.to.roa...)
Nothing holds water upon closer examination.
― M. V. (M.V.), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:47 (seventeen years ago) link
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:49 (seventeen years ago) link
― j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 19:51 (seventeen years ago) link
― Zwan (miccio), Wednesday, 28 June 2006 23:55 (seventeen years ago) link
― gear (gear), Thursday, 29 June 2006 00:01 (seventeen years ago) link
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 29 June 2006 00:10 (seventeen years ago) link
― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 29 June 2006 00:18 (seventeen years ago) link