"4:13 Dream" by the Cure

Nah, I could totally see Robert surrounding himself with an entirely new band - rather than established Curepeople - and having it inspire and reinvigorating him. The Cure is Robert, after all - he is and always has been the chief. Even if other band members contribute - and plenty of them have over the years - the final call is always made by Robert.

But, y'know, we're getting distracted from the real issue here, and that's that Jason Cooper is the worst drummer The Cure have ever had.

*inspiring

Also, Andy was not able to play the triplets on '100 Years' either, so he must be crap, right?

uhh
https://youtu.be/ApKZ1mOLbIY?t=2721

ok yah he's not doing the drum machine triplet bass hits but goddamn he's fucking killing it!

the drums on "gone!" are good

I'm gonna have to stop you both and say those aren't triplets, they're 16th notes.

ty ty

No Cure drummer has replicated the drum machine pattern on 'One Hundred Years' exact. On Trilogy, Cooper plays along to the drum machine pattern, on In Orange, Boris does no such thing.

Jason Cooper is the worst drummer The Cure have ever had.

http://drummerszone.media/artists/2000/6684-08252010154446.jpg

haha yah lol sucked but he made the drum machine patterns work live in an intriguing way

I'm just amazed at the size of his kit in that photo. Did he even hit anything besides the hi-hat, kick, snare, and occasionally the crash cymbal?

(of course he did, I'm just joking)

You can show me all the pictures of Lol Tolhurst you want, Jason Cooper is still the worst drummer The Cure have ever had. Lol had limited ability, but he was right for The Cure at that time and many of his drum patterns are highly memorable. Jason Cooper had utilised whatever talent he has to create nothing significant and has never been right for The Cure.

*has

Even image-wise he has always looked out of place... I remember seeing a picture of the Smith/Gallup/Thompson/Cooper line-up all clad in make-up and it was like "spot the one that doesn't look right" ...

I mean, I dislike Wild Mood Swings a lot and I think that statement on Jason is super overblown, particularly in the context of the work he did on 4:13 Dream

Actually, I'd go as far as saying that, aside from the odd dud track here and there, the two main things that ruin post-Wish Cure are bad production decisions and Jason Cooper.

Didn't Jason join in some "be our new drummer!" contest?

also: Your favorite Cure drummer

The band advertised auditions through the British music papers that they were looking for a drummer. They did not identify themselves in the ads.

From what I understand, Jason did not know he was auditioning for the Cure until his call back.

Even image-wise he has always looked out of place... I remember seeing a picture of the Smith/Gallup/Thompson/Cooper line-up all clad in make-up and it was like "spot the one that doesn't look right" ...

― LEAVE JASON ALONE! :'( (Turrican), Thursday, 3 August 2017 23:01

In a lot of their peak fame photos it looks like some of them really didn't want to wear makeup and didn't look quite right.

hate myself for contributing
but isn't part of the (alleged) jason problem that they play everything that to a click track now?
IIRC they only started this practice after the swing tour, and surely it is partially responsible for certain songs really dragging live nowadays

The backing track thing came about around the time Porl rejoined. Festival 2005 era.

also he plays the old stuff in like that hip hop drummer school way

In a lot of their peak fame photos it looks like some of them really didn't want to wear makeup and didn't look quite right.

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, August 3, 2017 11:33 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I disagree! Nobody in their The Head on the Door up to Wish period looked out of place.

Looking like they were made up against their will I thought was one of their trademarks!

A quick assessment of how cool The Cure looked circa The Cure In Orange...

Robert - cool as fuck.
Porl - cool as fuck.
Simon - cool as fuck.
Boris - cool as fuck.
Lol - not as cool as the others, but doesn't look like a twat and is still cooler than Jason Cooper so gets a pass.

Now circa Trilogy...

Robert - fat aged goth
Simon - metal band reject
Roger - miserable old woman
Perry - blends in rather well... with the scenery
Jason - looks more like he should be the drummer for Robbie Williams or something.

Harsh

Because appearance is indicative of musical talent.

Of course it isn't, it's just another way in which Cooper is unsuitable for The Cure.

As not a member of the band, you're unsuitable to make such claims.

A quick assessment of Cure drummers

Lol - Technically not a great drummer, although dealt with his limitations well and came up with a lot of good drum parts. The simplicity and starkness of his drumming was of great benefit to The Cure's material from the beginning up to Pornography. Second only to Boris in Cure drummer terms.

Steve - Only played on the 'Let's Go To Bed' single, and while the guy was never a "proper" member of The Cure, his chops are great - he also played on Costello's 'Watching The Detectives' ... would have been suitable for The Cure full time? Probably not.

Andy - The most underrated drummer in Cure history, could handle the likes of the thidding 'Shake Dog Shake' and the jazz-brush shuffle of 'The Lovecats' without too much trouble. Love his drumming on 'Bird Mad Girl' in particular.

Boris - The Cure drummer as far as I, and pretty much the majority of Curefans are concerned. Had a great sound and feel, and really knew how to craft drum parts that brought out the best in the material and contributed massively to the Cure's sound during their most commercially successful period. Check out 'The Walk' from The Cure In Orange - he plays every ounce of that drum machine beat exact. Superb.

Jason - The longest serving Cure drummer but also the most anonymous. Terrible drum sound, over-uses his cymbals and embellishes various Cure songs with unnecessary flourishes. Also terrible at the softer songs - very clattery.

*thudding

As not a member of the band, you're unsuitable to make such claims.

― he doesn't need to be racist about it though. (Austin), Friday, August 4, 2017 6:59 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

As a long-time fan of the band, I'm going to ignore you and make such claims anyway. Not that it should come as a surprise, since a hell of a lot of long-time fans have been saying the same thing for close to two decades - and they're right.

Yeah, so to anyone just trying to catch up on the happenings in this topic: anybody who says Lol is "second only to Boris" should be immediately disregarded, as actual skill and musical talent means nothing to this person.

Turricantics, go back to defending Rush or some other shite music whose fans are as pedantically cunty as you are. Stop sullying up Cure topics with fashion assessments and idiotic, baseless grudges you're holding onto.

I don't remember the Rush threads being pedantic.

I think any right-thinking Cure fan would say that Lol is second only to Boris in terms of contribution. Lol and Boris have contributed a lot of lasting, memorable work to the Cure canon. Jason hasn't.

Austin Allegro, stop trying to be me. You're terrible at it. You're great at "sullying" Cure topics by being "pedantically cunty", though, as anyone with a pair of eyes and the ability to scroll upwards can witness, which I guess also means you're terrible at self-awareness, too.

I'm just going to post some songs I love off this album and pretend you guys aren't here.

https://youtu.be/SX8W_TXFyME

I love this song so much

https://youtu.be/wCgejr7z7fI

I don't remember Lol Tolhurst being a better drummer than Andy Anderson, and yet here we are.

"Hungry Ghost" is my favourite. I thought the b-sides were quite weak but I think I like this album more than most of you.

This is a song where I think Jason works incredibly well; he pretty much thunders his way through the song and everyone else springboards off of his energy:

https://youtu.be/rnJkgEwLKb8

This is still my favorite of the singles and the one that translates best to a live setting:

https://youtu.be/A7Iicf6ATeY

Ah yeah, 'The Real Snow White' - one of my favourite tracks on the album, that. It's one of many that truly could have blossomed more if it wasn't for the awful production. I think that's the thing that irked me the most about 4:13 Dream, even moreso than the continued presence of Jason Cooper... it's that Robert Smith has been involved in making so many great sounding records, that 4:13 Dream for me was a case of "how did this happen? how did this recording/final mix end up sounding so dull, flat and lifeless?"

i like the fashion critiques! simon looks like the singer from LIT now

My favorite of the b-sides; again, I really like Jason in full-on thunder mode and when the song kicks into full on fraught paranoia in the prechorus, it rules:

https://youtu.be/F4Gq0D88PyQ

I think this is probably the most underrated song on the album. It's not my favorite but every time I play it, I am struck by how much I enjoy it and wonder why it doesn't appear as anyone's 2nd or 3rd favorite:

https://youtu.be/w0HGRkYOEEU

The thing about songs like 'It's Over' and 'Switch' is that I can't help but imagine how much they'd rule if Boris had played on 'em.

Andy Anderson is technically a better drummer than Lol but Lol came up with iconic drum parts like the ones on 'The Figurehead', 'The Hanging Garden', 'Siamese Twins' etc. Andy did however play drums on 'The Lovecats', which alone means he's made more of a contribution to the Cure canon drumming-wise than Jason has in his whole stint.

This song is a little "latter-period Cure, lol" but it still works, especially the prechorus:

https://youtu.be/cHagAp8CVo0