Your new regular Kelefa thread -- the subject is emo

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― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 16 March 2006 16:29 (twenty years ago)

lol he keeps saying 'mr.'

― Real Goths Don't Wear Black (Enrique), Thursday, 16 March 2006 16:40 (twenty years ago)

Wow, that seems to be a long article for one that doesn't really say anything. Made me cuious about the Hopper essay (usually I find her too much enveloped in creating her patois to be worth digging into) and the U-M paper.

― js (honestengine), Thursday, 16 March 2006 16:48 (twenty years ago)

That was actually informative to me, since I don't get exposed to this stuff. A very sympathetic account, anyway. Some of the emo hate around here seems a little irrational, but then again I haven't heard enough to comment. Is emo's glam turn something new, or has it been there from the beginning? (Or is it a figment of Mr. Kelefa's imagination?)

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Thursday, 16 March 2006 16:50 (twenty years ago)

I think the popularity of makeup in emo is relatively new, but it definitely feels like a logical progression from the carefully crafted emo hairstyles that have been around since the 90s.

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Thursday, 16 March 2006 16:55 (twenty years ago)

kelefa is waaaay emo. he loves all variations of emo-ness.

― scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 16 March 2006 16:56 (twenty years ago)

Here's the J. Hopper article.

― jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 16 March 2006 16:57 (twenty years ago)

I enjoyed the piece. But I don't think Kelefa ever touches on whether emo ever really SOUNDS glam (glam-rock had a sound, not just makeup; it SOUNDED swishy, didn't just look swishy). In fact, I'm not sure he really deals with sounds at all - he quotes a lot of lyrics, but never really gets across what makes those lyrics (which don't read especially intriging on paper, at least not to me) compelling. So it sort of unintentionally confirms my probably stupid prejudice that emo is just loud singer-songwriter music, without much music attached.

― xhuxk, Thursday, 16 March 2006 16:58 (twenty years ago)

i think ilm's maybe more sympathetic to newer 'glam' emo (if my chemical romance and fall out boy count, which i guess they do apparently?) and duh of course natch rites of spring or whatever (i think there's love for that dismemberment plan 'it's new years and i'm cold woe woe' song too right?). the stuff's never made much impact on me hearing it clog up radio beyond being able to identify it - any glam or pop move would help fix one glaring problem i have with it (it's really really dull and samey)(dull and samey for rock music even). curious about the hopper essay somewhat. i'm trying to fathom how advanced one's add has to be for this article to seem 'long'.

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:03 (twenty years ago)

xhuxkx emo sounds like ashlee simpson, except occasionally more pop (tough task that).

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:07 (twenty years ago)

I'm not sure he really deals with sounds at all

This is like that longest of the Arctic Monkeys threads again, where people were justifiably bitching about this - if I didn't hear more of this stuff than I actually want to, that piece would give me NO clue as to what/who it sounds like

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:12 (twenty years ago)

So it sort of unintentionally confirms my probably stupid prejudice that emo is just loud singer-songwriter music, without much music attached.
-- xhuxk (xedd...), March 16th, 2006.

Fallout Boy sound like emo pop-punk and loud singer-songwriter to me, but not glam no matter the use of eyeliner (is Green Day glam too since Billie Joe uses eyeliner?). I haven't listened or read anything about the groups mentioned close enough to weigh in on the sexism allegations.

― curmudgeon (DC Steve), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:13 (twenty years ago)

gee i guess maybe the article's not about 'what does emo sound like' huh?

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:14 (twenty years ago)

I'm not asking for an entire feature on it, I just find it odd... maybe a missed opportunity when you're writing for an audience most of whom will have a pretty tenuous acquaintance with this stuff

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:19 (twenty years ago)

how many times exactly should he have repeated variations of 'plaintive punk'?

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:21 (twenty years ago)

so KS see some emo porn, gets all pervy, and writes a nothing essay that says almost zero about the music (and lacks any real insight into anything besides eyeliner & hairspray habits of rockers). Great job, keep up the good work, NYTimes.

― elmo cortez, Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:23 (twenty years ago)

xp: Well, if the comparison is to glam rock James, he might have at least *touched* on whether the music ever sounds like glam rock. (Did he? If so, I missed it.) I'm not saying it should've been a "what does emo sound like" essay. But how one could read it and not *wonder* whether any of it sounds glam is beyond me.

― xhuxk, Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:24 (twenty years ago)

ts: more interesting, newsworthy - eyeliner & hairspray habits of rockers vs. "the music"

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:26 (twenty years ago)

Are From First To Last an emo band? They sound prog as hell to me. I love the new album.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:40 (twenty years ago)

xhuxk in complaining about a critic not actually describing what music sounds like shocker! haha just playin'

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:41 (twenty years ago)

emo bands sound like Kix with more chugga

― o -- (eman), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:49 (twenty years ago)

I like Kelefa's last line.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 16 March 2006 17:51 (twenty years ago)

How invigorating
As I fast approach my 39th join me and rejoice in my 20th year of emo.

Looks like it just gets better and better too? Now developing into complete narcissism (rather than bog standard navel gazing) and cross dressing.

― Jessie the Drunk Dutch Mountain Dog (Jessie the Drunk Dutch Mountai), Thursday, 16 March 2006 20:49 (twenty years ago)

the beginning and the end are always better than the middle (or "the middle")!

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 16 March 2006 21:32 (twenty years ago)

I want to know where you ppl are hearing so much emo on the radio. (And if emo is the new glam then I am so going to start listening.)

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 16 March 2006 22:49 (twenty years ago)

This coincidence of this and that ultragrrl post last week seem... well, not to be a coincidence.

― Mitya (mitya), Friday, 17 March 2006 01:50 (twenty years ago)

...My Chemical Romance, an even more exciting band...
???

― daavid (daavid), Friday, 17 March 2006 02:59 (twenty years ago)

RELATIVE TERMS YO

― j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 17 March 2006 03:00 (twenty years ago)

The Hopper column is good, but I think it's out of place comapred to the current crop he's discussing. Fall Out Boy (and the other emo bands I can't identify on Top 40 radio) have moved away from the girl as succubus routine she wrote about - maybe a natural function of appealing to a pop audience that's largely female. (Not coincidentally, the two Fall Out Boy songs I've heard are loads better than emo circa 2001.) They've moved back to the lovesick mode that reminds me emo/pop-punk in the late '90s and female power-pop now (Clarkson, Ashlee, Avril).

He never compares the music to glam rock, he refers to the influence of glam fashion and stylization. By his words, yes, Billie Joe's eyeliner is a touch of glam (but not really, since he never approaches any kind of gender-bending/questioning?).

― Erick Dampier is better than Shaq (miloaukerman), Friday, 17 March 2006 03:14 (twenty years ago)

Actually I'll tell you the gap in the article in terms of lines of descent -- donut told me about a presentation at EMP last year that specifically discussed the appearance/presentation of Robert Smith and the Cure in the late eighties, and how towards the end the presenter was able, briefly but memorably, to demonstrate how that look had started to become a particular model for a ton of bands, modern Green Day but one of them. Kelefa dances around this a touch with his mentions of 'goth and new wave' but never quiet nails it, which is kinda odd since both the appeal and criticisms (including, easily arguably, the angle he brings in via Hopper) of so much emo can easily be said to have clear roots in Cure music and melancholia (My Chemical Romance being only the most overt, via a Smashing Pumpkins line of descent as well). It's very much the elephant in the center of the room here.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 17 March 2006 03:21 (twenty years ago)

what was that band i just saw in rolling stone? the horror? young brits. they all looked like fat bob, but they were skinny.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 17 March 2006 03:26 (twenty years ago)

i threw my copy away. i might have that name totally wrong. they were all frightwigged out though. i hope they are the next big thing.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 17 March 2006 03:27 (twenty years ago)

A neat comic adaptation of the Hopper essay:

http://www.nothingnice.com/index.php?pageNum_Recordset2=315

― Tantrum The Cat (Tantrum The Cat), Friday, 17 March 2006 03:40 (twenty years ago)

Chuck— Emo sounds like the first two Weezer albums, without the fun that Weezer used to bring before Rivers went to Harvard and gave up sex.

(Which is something that I meant to return to in that Ultragrrl post— how Weezer have had a much, much bigger influence on current popular music than Nirvana have.)

― js (honestengine), Friday, 17 March 2006 06:37 (twenty years ago)

Ecstasy abuse in the gay community: The subject is e, mo.

― mickey nachos, Friday, 17 March 2006 06:48 (twenty years ago)

http://myspace-361.vo.llnwd.net/00259/16/33/259123361_m.gif

― latebloomer aka rembrandt, the fifth ninja turtle (latebloomer), Friday, 17 March 2006 06:51 (twenty years ago)

The weird thing about emo is that whenever it's brought up people talk about it's history and usually bring up Rites of Spring or some early hardcore band. Honestly as a genre, I don't think emo has a lineage that deep. I don't think the kids playing it or listening to it are listening to music that old, or even listening to bands who are listening to music that old. Even Weezer seems a bit far back for them. And there's a lot of death metal influence that's crossing over, especially in the screamier stuff that a lot of people are ignoring. Actually most of the emo kids I knew from high school "grew up" recently and listen to Khante and stuff.

― Period period period (Period period period), Friday, 17 March 2006 07:14 (twenty years ago)

latebloomer, you've BLOOMING DONE IT AGAIN!!!! HIGH-LARIOUS!!!!!!!!!

― xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Friday, 17 March 2006 07:24 (twenty years ago)

I can usually tell which emo bands have actually heard the old bands and which are just frontin' -- it's in the bass lines -- but I know I'd rather listen to Sweet than do a scientific analysis of these geeks.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Friday, 17 March 2006 07:28 (twenty years ago)

what was that band i just saw in rolling stone? the horror? young brits. they all looked like fat bob, but they were skinny.

Sounds like Bring Me The Horizon?

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 17 March 2006 09:31 (twenty years ago)

Not to always be bringing it back to this, but I think Christian emo does a good job of eschewing some of the fashion and misogynist overtones (hmm... overtones and undertones are synonyms. weird) of the rest of the scene. Also writing good pop songs, although a little bit of the singer-songwriter thing. Basically, I'm talking about Copeland (again).

On a slightly separate note, I think there is a ton of rockism in emo (see: Wuthering Heights vs. Ne-yo). I know that my pop-punk drummer little brother is pretty rockist re: rock v. pop (as opposed to funk or whatever), despite his favorite artist ever being Prince.

― regular roundups (Dave M), Friday, 17 March 2006 09:41 (twenty years ago)

actually, maybe not. his favorite instrument is vocoder, pretty much.

― regular roundups (Dave M), Friday, 17 March 2006 09:44 (twenty years ago)

this reads like he's never actually listened to glam rock!
or considered the bent-gendering aspect of glitter...

not that THAT matters o'course

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Friday, 17 March 2006 11:16 (twenty years ago)

I do hear some glam (or at least hair-metal) in early Weezer -- maybe even in Dag Nasty's *Field Day,* for that matter (the first album that really *felt* emo to me, whatever the hell that means; either way, when I reviewed it when it came out I even metioned Mott the Hoople!). But I've yet to hear an emo album anywhere near as catchy as that Dag Nasty record or those first two Weezer albums, so yeah, JS OTM I think. (My favorite emo band of the '00s has been {or I guess WAS} Dismemberment Plan, who sound more iike Dave Matthews! But I haven't heard any other emo bands that sound like Dismemberment Plan.)

― xhuxk, Friday, 17 March 2006 11:57 (twenty years ago)

Related question: How glam was hair-metal. (I'd say very. And have said, in the past.)

Also have yet to hear an emo record that sounded as good or catchy or much at all like Ashlee, for whatever that's worth. Though I'd love to know if such records actually exist.

― xhuxk, Friday, 17 March 2006 12:06 (twenty years ago)

Er, since my point is that most current hit emo DOESN'T seem to sound much like Weezer, I'm not sure what exactly I meant by "JS OTM": maybe just "Weezer are important and deserve to be mentioned here too"? But I think Ned might be right in suggesting the current root might be late '80s Cure via Smashing Pumpkins (who I *guess* could both be argued to have certain glammish tendences, though not enough or not the right ones to make me like them much I guess; too bad the influence is never *Boys Don't Cry* Cure!) But maybe that also just means that the chart focus has shifted from (post-Weezer, if never as good as Weezer) "emo" to post-art-metal "screamo", which is where I'd probably categorize My Chemical Romance, I think. (Sometimes it seems like people distinguish between emo from screamo; sometimes people act like they're the same thing. I have no idea what the consensus now is; I'm starting to get the idea that stuff that would have been called "screamo" two years ago is just called "emo" now. But people seemed to have differing definitions of "screamo" in the first place, I suppose. And the Fall Out Boy stuff I've heard seemed closer to Bowling to Soup's stuff than My Chemical Romance's stuff, and nobody has ever considered Bowling For Soup emo, right? Or have they?)

― xhuxk, Friday, 17 March 2006 14:05 (twenty years ago)

Though, speaking of *Boys Don't Cry* Cure, whatever happened to Paris, Texas? I liked their emo EP six years ago (see link)! (Probably they were one of those bands whose full-length albums weren't as good.)

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0046,eddy,19797,22.html

― xhuxk, Friday, 17 March 2006 14:21 (twenty years ago)

haha Paris, Texas, I don't remember anything about that EP other than giving it a pretty negative review.

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Friday, 17 March 2006 14:31 (twenty years ago)

Ned totally OTM w/r/t the Cure. That seems a much more obvious source of these bands' eyeliner than, uh, Poison. Or Marc Bolan.

― marc h. (marc h.), Friday, 17 March 2006 14:40 (twenty years ago)

So anyway, where can we see this emo boy with his pants down?

(P.S. Like all those post-grunge Creedalikes, I get the impression this is another American rock style that is not getting anywhere in Europe, am I right?)

― JoB (JoB), Friday, 17 March 2006 15:16 (twenty years ago)

You must be fucking kidding me

― DJ Mencap (DJ Mencap), Friday, 17 March 2006 16:13 (twenty years ago)

(Ned in mentioning the Cure, etc.)

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Friday, 17 March 2006 16:15 (twenty years ago)

And conveniently I am listening to the Cure right now!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 17 March 2006 16:17 (twenty years ago)

Sanneh seems to like discussing the lyrics of emo bands more than he does of rappers and dancehallers(his recent favorable reviews of Lil' Wayne and Vybz Kartel dealt more with the timbre of their voices and the beats more so than the lyrics).

― curmudgeon (DC Steve), Saturday, 18 March 2006 18:07 (twenty years ago)

I think emo fans listen more for lyrics than other genres. They love posting that shit on their livejournals/scrawling it on their backpacks

― Period period period (Period period period), Saturday, 18 March 2006 19:15 (twenty years ago)

Yea, but I also think Sanneh is trying to avoid controversy at times. He refers in his Vybz Kartel article to Vybz using "smutty puns" when he could have come out and said that Vybz is reciting gay-bashing lyrics (I see that Dave Stelfox described the Vybz kartel lyrics more straight-forwardly in his Pitchfork dancehall column than Sanneh did in his NYT review).

― curmudgeon (DC Steve), Saturday, 18 March 2006 20:28 (twenty years ago)

(P.S. Like all those post-grunge Creedalikes, I get the impression this is another American rock style that is not getting anywhere in Europe, am I right?)

Unfortunately you're incorrect. I can't walk about Glasgow for more than five minutes without seeing an emo type and we have Fall Out Boy adverts on the television. It's weird how all these tattooed and flesh-plugged people have emerged in the space of a year or two.

― jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Saturday, 18 March 2006 20:36 (twenty years ago)

just to second all the ned otm: cure i'll note that dude who always sings cure songs and just cure songs at karaoke will once in a blue moon switch it up and sing...'el scorcho'.

― j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 18 March 2006 21:34 (twenty years ago)

Hahaha

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 March 2006 21:39 (twenty years ago)

are yellowcard part of this genre? (i honestly don't know, never heard them; but something leads me to think they are.) anyway, there were enormous posters for yellowcard's show in santiago, chile last week (hot on the heels of U2 and franz ferdinand!) which leads me to believe there might indeed be a lucrative emo export market.

― philip sherburne (philip sherburne), Saturday, 18 March 2006 21:55 (twenty years ago)

it's an angsty world.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Saturday, 18 March 2006 22:03 (twenty years ago)

Well a few years ago (2002 or something) I was staying at my gran's house in Chile and I used to watch Latin American MTV in bed at night. They had lots of emo videos, only one I can remember by name was Atreyu (this was before they were well known at all in Britain, I remember them because they had a singing drummer, always a novelty), there were also one or two latin american emo bands, although Strokes imitators seemed more prevalent. I didn't ever see any stereotypically emo looking people but the few young people I talked to were in to a combination of 'mall-punk' and emo.

― jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Saturday, 18 March 2006 22:04 (twenty years ago)

yeah, yellowcard are emo (and they have a violin player).

where does "Mr Brightside" fit? it feels emo to me.

― artdamages (artdamages), Sunday, 19 March 2006 03:32 (twenty years ago)

Cure and New wave as well plus the Killers singer wears eyeliner

― curmudgeon (Steve K), Sunday, 19 March 2006 03:42 (twenty years ago)

The killers do strike one as quite emo now that you mention it. Some of their melodies sound similar to bands like the Alkaline trio (ok that's pop-punk but the two are good bedfellows), they have a song called "Smile like you mean it" which wouldn't be incongruous among the tracklisting of any emo LP. The combination of power chords and keyboard lines somewhat reminiscent of perhaps the Get Up kids could also be mentioned. They basically are very emo, but their image, in the UK at least, has been more post-strokes 'real band' hipster yankees.

― jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Sunday, 19 March 2006 03:47 (twenty years ago)

mr brightsides is smiths-emo. the smiths have been retroactively emo for quite a while now (who knows, maybe theyve always been emo. being celebate is pretty emo).

― artdamages (artdamages), Sunday, 19 March 2006 03:49 (twenty years ago)

Apparently Morrisey once got asked in an interview if he was a virgin and he said "yes, in a very profound way". That's emo.

― jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Sunday, 19 March 2006 03:50 (twenty years ago)

not that the various disputed definitions of emo have ever really mattered to me, but is funny to see how much the boundaries of the term have eroded over the past few years, to the point that any fey, young rock band (i.e. The Killers) starts to count as emo somehow.

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Sunday, 19 March 2006 05:10 (twenty years ago)

I mean, I played in a band 6 years ago that was more or less considered emo, but we had weird song structures and political lyrics and just generally sounded kind of ugly, but at some point since then Dashboard Confessional ceased being "too soft" to be emo.

― Alex in Baltimore (Alex in Baltimore), Sunday, 19 March 2006 05:19 (twenty years ago)

not that the various disputed definitions of emo have ever really mattered to me, I mean, I played in a band 6 years ago that was more or less considered emo, but we had weird song structures and political lyrics and just generally sounded kind of ugly, but at some point since then Dashboard Confessional ceased being "too soft" to be emo.

― jfkls, Sunday, 19 March 2006 07:32 (twenty years ago)

i remember at least one review a few years ago that called Lifter Puller emo. Which sort of made sense at the time. If so, they were probably the greatest emo band ever, unless the Hold Steady are.

― xhuxk, Sunday, 19 March 2006 14:53 (twenty years ago)

nah -- the greatest emo band ever are The Who, but only circa Tommy.

They were better before, but they weren't emo.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 19 March 2006 15:01 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, good point. Or maybe Simon and Garfunkel.

― xhuxk, Sunday, 19 March 2006 15:02 (twenty years ago)

i don't think simon and garfunkel had enough guitars to be emo? i mean i used to sing "i am a rock" when i was like twelve years old all the time, and it's pretty emo but too straightforward. i've heard some semi-ironic "covers" of snippets of "the boxer" though and maybe that would count -- but only if covered with more distortion than it had at first.

the bridge of "bridge over troubled water" works too but the chorus is too major key.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 19 March 2006 15:29 (twenty years ago)

Actually, Simon and Garfunkel rocked too hard to be emo. (I'm sort of not kidding.)

― xhuxk, Sunday, 19 March 2006 15:29 (twenty years ago)

three years pass...

thought this piece was really interesting: http://www.newyorker.com/online/2010/02/08/100208on_audio_sanneh

― Lamp, Thursday, 4 February 2010 17:49 (sixteen years ago)

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