TS: The Doors vs The Jam

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come take a walk upon these hills and see how monetarism kills the father and fucks the mother

dave q (listerine), Monday, 13 February 2006 18:18 (fifteen years ago) link

the doors, and i don't even really like the doors.

Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Monday, 13 February 2006 18:21 (fifteen years ago) link

jim is an idol!

nique (nique), Monday, 13 February 2006 19:41 (fifteen years ago) link

What? Jam by a country fuckin' mile!!

regular roundups (Dave M), Monday, 13 February 2006 19:44 (fifteen years ago) link

The doors are to me a bit of a joke. So for me it's the Jam they merit it for having a catchy song with the lyrics
"They smelt of pubs and Wormwood Scrubs,
And too many right-wing meetings" alone.

jimnaseum (jimnaseum), Monday, 13 February 2006 19:46 (fifteen years ago) link

The Doors highs and lows are so much more great/violent than the Jam's who were just a really decent pop group putting a slightly peppy, new twist on an already established formula. But the Doors at their best were fucking groundbreaking. Give them credit for influencing hard rock, heavy metal, punk, AND even some post-punk. They gotta be cool if they influenced both the Stooges and the Misfits.

QuantumNoise (Justin Farrar), Monday, 13 February 2006 20:13 (fifteen years ago) link

doors.
lockthread.

eedd, Monday, 13 February 2006 20:17 (fifteen years ago) link

D00RS
I love/hate the Doors. I've had Teh End stuck in my head for the last couple of days.
Strange Days is a pretty good record!
The Jam does not appeal to me.

Tripmaker (SDWitzm), Monday, 13 February 2006 20:19 (fifteen years ago) link

I love the Jam to death and I own everything they ever made, but i would have to pick the doors.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 13 February 2006 20:26 (fifteen years ago) link

ah the doors. the drummer sounded afraid to actually hit his drums, the keyboardist sounded like the fill-in guy at a roller rink, the singer was an ex-jock cashing in on the new culture, and the guitarist kept falling asleep (or sounding like it). the billy joel of their day. tremendous. yeah, they influenced the stooges, and yeah, the stooges did more with that influence than the doors could have ever imagined in their wildest most acid-freaked-out-marketing-strategy dreams.

the Who were right to destroy some of the Doors' gear when they shared a bill.

Lawrence the Looter (Lawrence the Looter), Monday, 13 February 2006 20:26 (fifteen years ago) link

uh jim morrison = not a jock

but thanks

marc h. (marc h.), Monday, 13 February 2006 20:29 (fifteen years ago) link

the singer was an ex-jock

excuse me please, what does 'jock' stand for in this case?

nique (nique), Monday, 13 February 2006 20:40 (fifteen years ago) link

Forget the music, have you ever read Morrison's 'poetry?' Um, yeah, it's good stuff.*

JosephLarkin, Monday, 13 February 2006 20:49 (fifteen years ago) link

The Jam. Morrison was a joke, a bad one.

zeus (zeus), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:48 (fifteen years ago) link

the doors. morrison was a joke, a great one.

j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:54 (fifteen years ago) link

Paul Weller didn't die after the band ended, so Jim wins there. But the Jam over the Doors otherwise.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:56 (fifteen years ago) link

stooges vs. oasis

j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:57 (fifteen years ago) link

Ned otm

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:57 (fifteen years ago) link

stooges vs. oasis

More like the Tea Party vs. the Ordinary Boys.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:58 (fifteen years ago) link

the birthday party vs. blur

j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 13 February 2006 22:59 (fifteen years ago) link

I think it's more like this

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Monday, 13 February 2006 23:01 (fifteen years ago) link

i think they're about even for me. i used to hate the doors (and sometimes still do) for all the usual reasons but blount's right, morrison was hilarious. people who go on and on about how tiresome the cult of morrison-the-lizard-king is fail to realize that no one over the age of 14 (except maybe oliver stone) cares about that shit at all!

the jam had a few good singles but one of the worst things about britpop was the way paul weller got elevated to some kind of elder statesman. jon savage was right, they were boring reactionaries from the start.

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:14 (fifteen years ago) link

I'd rather listen to Snap than the Doors Greatest Hits so The Jam in a trouncing.

Jim Reckling (Jim Reckling), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:36 (fifteen years ago) link

o yeah i'd take snap! over either of these easily

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:37 (fifteen years ago) link

The Style Council over both.

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:38 (fifteen years ago) link

over snap! ?

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:40 (fifteen years ago) link

Okay, maybe not over Snap. But I like me some "Come to Milton Keynes".

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:41 (fifteen years ago) link

Hang on, are we talking about the band Snap?

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:43 (fifteen years ago) link

jon savage was right, they were boring reactionaries from the start

This seems OTM.

"L.A. Woman," "Hello, I Love You," "Riders on the Storm," "Indian Summer," "You're Lost Little Girl," "Backdoor Man," "I Looked at You," "Take it as it Comes" were all on par with the best music from the '60s. The Jam only dreamed of creating music on par with all the bands they ripped off from the '60s.

And as for complaints that the Doors weren't powerful musically. I never understood that especially considering stuff like "When the Music's Over". The entire group is just fucking spot-on there. That screaming, reverberating guitar stuff is fanatastic.

QuantumNoise (Justin Farrar), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:45 (fifteen years ago) link

The Jam were roughly 121,206 times better, but then again The Doors didn't ruin music, so it's kind of a tie.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:49 (fifteen years ago) link

Bruce Foxton and Ray Manzarek are both great tragicomic joke-butt figures, tho.

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:53 (fifteen years ago) link

The Jam are clearly better, and they didn't ruin music either. As a main influence source for Britpop, they helped save music.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:54 (fifteen years ago) link

Bruce Foxton and Ray Manzarek and Geir are both all great tragicomic joke-butt figures, tho.

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:55 (fifteen years ago) link

Also, with the exception of Abba and "D'Ya Think I'm Sexy?", I don't think any band have been danced to, uninterruptedly, for as long as The Jam.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:58 (fifteen years ago) link

Geir always uses the term "clearly."

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 00:59 (fifteen years ago) link

In the same way that Barristers use the term "with respect".

Abu Hamster (noodle vague), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 01:00 (fifteen years ago) link

Oh OK, well it's less annoying then.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 01:02 (fifteen years ago) link

Where the heck does comparing the Jam and the Doors come from anyway?! Shouldn't it be like the Jam vs. the Who? Or some other mod group? But then that would probably make Paul Weller not look as great. So compare them to a really different band from the time period they were obviously influenced by so it will look like they can measure up.

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:41 (fifteen years ago) link

(Jeff Bridges voice) But that's just....like.....my opinion man.

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:58 (fifteen years ago) link

you need to be banned.

ham'ron (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:59 (fifteen years ago) link

from life.

ham'ron (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 02:59 (fifteen years ago) link

true

j blount (papa la bas), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 03:01 (fifteen years ago) link

We... the royal we!

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 03:11 (fifteen years ago) link

So I take it you guys voted for the Jam then. Jeez! I didn't even really say anything negative!

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 03:26 (fifteen years ago) link

Just hold your horses, we'll all be banned from life.

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 03:29 (fifteen years ago) link

The Doors

Mama Roux, Tuesday, 14 February 2006 04:20 (fifteen years ago) link

THE DOORS WERE THE F*&CKING CREED OF THEIR TIME.

For that reason alone, The Jam. But, add "Setting Sons" to the mix and it's a landslide.

hector savage, Tuesday, 14 February 2006 04:22 (fifteen years ago) link

THE DOORS WERE THE F*&CKING CREED OF THEIR TIME

The Doors were no Christians. They rode the fucking snake, man.

QuantumNoise (Justin Farrar), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 05:07 (fifteen years ago) link

The Doors being the Creed of their time has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. In order for that to be true, Creed would have to be the Doors of their time, and anybody with any knowledge of either band would laugh at the thought.

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 05:33 (fifteen years ago) link

Doors. The Jam have an odd status as possibly the GREATEST band that I never liked. Sounded good on paper, and they had a great rhythm section, and I suppose they wrote good songs. But except for "A Town Called Malice" they couldn't seem to write a tune that stuck in my head. Plus the Pistols' "Holidays In The Sun" was a better song than "In The City" (or whatever Jam song they stole the riff from.) And don't get me started on Paul Weller's singing.

I will grant, however, that The Jam were MUCH better than Style Council.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 05:56 (fifteen years ago) link

the doorjamb

kanye twitty (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 06:03 (fifteen years ago) link

aw fuck, myonga beat me to it!

kanye twitty (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 06:05 (fifteen years ago) link

"L.A. Woman," "Hello, I Love You," "Riders on the Storm," "Indian Summer," "You're Lost Little Girl," "Backdoor Man," "I Looked at You," "Take it as it Comes" were all on par with the best music from the '60s.

In a world where Odessey and Oracle and Pet Sounds and Revolver and The White Album and The Mirror Man Sessions and Music from Big Pink and The Band and all the Motown music had not been released, this would be truer.

But still not true.

regular roundups (Dave M), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 06:25 (fifteen years ago) link

Just name different song titles and then they will be on par :-). Some of these records are argueable though, I don't get what makes The Mirror Man Sessions top out Beefheart's other material from the decade.

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 06:32 (fifteen years ago) link

The Jam is sweet, but causes tooth decay
and diabetes.

The Doors augment privacy, retain warmth,
but also cause squeaky/slamming noises and
increase anti-social isolationism.


But if you lubricate the hinges with
maple syrup...


Peppy Zimbot, Tuesday, 14 February 2006 08:42 (fifteen years ago) link

....you get, the Doorjamb.

xgurggleglgllg (xgurggleglgllg), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 08:43 (fifteen years ago) link

"hey, you guys talkin about the Doors??? Well, you know back in the 60's, Jim and I were *insert nostalgic banter ad nauseum*"- Ray Manzerk all the time

"THE DOORS WERE THE F*&CKING CREED OF THEIR TIME."
this statement should be bookended w/ a disclaimer of 'i really don't know what i'm talking about!'

eedd, Tuesday, 14 February 2006 13:03 (fifteen years ago) link

I think part of the problem with the Doors' rep (in the US at least) is that since that Oliver Stone film, their records (well, just the 2-disc best of set, really) have become kind of standard issue in dorm rooms and music collections of the 12 CD or less variety. Liked too well by luddite frat boys and know-nothing jocks, they have fallen on disfavor among record-snob cognoscenti, where they are tarnished by association with the likes of Creed or Dave Matthews Band not because they share any musical qualities, but because they are liked by many of the same people. The Jam on the other hand are admirably unknown in the US, and remain the exclusive preserve of record snobs and anglophiliacs. So sociologically speaking, they are better positioned to win this TS.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:30 (fifteen years ago) link

Aren't there about a dozen threads on here about how The Doors have been so overrated for so long that they're now severely underrated?

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:32 (fifteen years ago) link

Actually I probably shouldn't say that they don't share any musical qualities with the likes of Creed and their grunge-derived brethren. I think that Morrison's trademark testosterone-laden baritone vocal sound was probably a significant influence on the popular rock vocalist sound that Eddie Vedder and others have made de rigeur in a certain style of contemporary rock music. Perhaps that is the major source of their crossover appeal with the fans of these other bands (presumably it's not their music, which drinks from much more exotic streams than most of their present-day offspring).

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:38 (fifteen years ago) link

Ha Dadaismus and I think you had some funny things to say on those threads. Nonetheless, I still hate the Doors, even if it is only a product of being a American teenager in the 70s.

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:42 (fifteen years ago) link

And, not growing up in the UK, I don't have any baggage about enjoying the Jam.

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:43 (fifteen years ago) link

I can't find it, but I think you said "Overrated by who? Iggy Pop and some Spanish Goths?"

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:55 (fifteen years ago) link

i don't love or hate either but i can probably come up with better-argued defenses of my favorite doors songs.

kanye twitty (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:55 (fifteen years ago) link

And, not growing up in the UK, I don't have any baggage about enjoying the Jam.

Well I don't have any baggage about enjoying the Jim

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 14:56 (fifteen years ago) link

Doors = three of the worst musicians of all time backing the worst poet of all time.

First day of poetry class, 1994. The only thing on the whiteboard is a stick-figure with long hair overlaid with a circle-slash. The teacher walks in, introduces himself, and tells us the drawing means "No Jim Morrisons. If you think Jim Morrison was a really great poet, you're in the wrong class." The non-sexual high point of my collegiate days...

So yeah, Jam by a light-year.

Jason Toon, Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:02 (fifteen years ago) link

Robby Krieger - a bad musician? I think not sir.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:03 (fifteen years ago) link

Isn't there an amusing story that there was one band that Glen Matlock and Johnny Rotten could agree on, that they both liked, and it was The Doors?

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:14 (fifteen years ago) link

"Doors = three of the worst musicians of all time backing the worst poet of all time."

they were fine musicians. i don't understand what people are listening to. and do the lyrics to their songs really make people hate the doors? they hardly had the worst lyrics in the world.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:22 (fifteen years ago) link

Considering his job was to write lyrics for a rock band then I think he wrote some great lyrics for a rock band

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:25 (fifteen years ago) link

Maybe some of us should never have gone to Père Lachaise.

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:26 (fifteen years ago) link

Nah, wouldn't have made a difference.

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:26 (fifteen years ago) link

i mean MOST rock lyrics are pretty terrible. i always thought his were pretty good psychedelic lyrics.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:31 (fifteen years ago) link

I can take or leave the Doors on the whole, but that debut album has some classic, classic pop-psych (Break On Through, Crystal Ship, Take It As It Comes). The *sound* is fucking amazing for 1967.

The Jam were utterly great from beginning to end.

Dr. C (Dr. C), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:36 (fifteen years ago) link

i understand about people not being able to take the deathcult/myth/60'sworship stuff though. i probably hated it too when i was younger. it's annoying. and it's true that annoying people can latch on to the doors. but then i put on one of those records and they sound great to me! very inventive. strange days is such a cool record. i don't really care about all that other stuff anymore. i've gotten old enough that i can ignore it.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:38 (fifteen years ago) link

i don't listen to the live doors stuff just cuz i love the production on the studio albums so much (from first to last too. LA Woman is an amazing sounding record), but i do still listen to dig the new breed every once in a while. one of my fave live albums even though it's all chopped up time-wise.

scott seward (scott seward), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:40 (fifteen years ago) link

As an aside, one kind of interesting thing is that the Doors' so-serious-it's-funny overtheatricality is sorta...well, "British," isn't it? As opposed to the Jam, who Union Jack aside did nothing but ape American forms (Mod, after all, being nothing but a British aping of American rock and Motown) for the entirety of their career.

Anyway, the Doors. I don't really love them or listen to them all that often, and both bands had their share of nifty tunes, but for personality, musicality, and their willingness to be completely stupid for the sake of a cool-sounding song, the Doors.

ZR (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:57 (fifteen years ago) link

Mod, after all, being nothing but a British aping of American rock and Motown

No it wasn't

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 15:58 (fifteen years ago) link

well, fashion-wise maybe, and they took different drugs. but musically? what else goes into the pot, other than some cool noises?

ZR (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:04 (fifteen years ago) link

Music was an afterthought.

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:05 (fifteen years ago) link

Touche. I like some of the Mod covers better'n the Motown originals though - Action's "I'll Keep Holding On" and Small Faces' "Baby Don't You Do It" kinda pwn their respective sources.

ZR (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:08 (fifteen years ago) link

I would like to see what our old pal Stewart has to say about this.

Redd Harvest (Ken L), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:09 (fifteen years ago) link

'twould be more accurate to say that The Jam were aping British bands aping American music. How many "mod" bands actually were mod bands?

Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:10 (fifteen years ago) link

That's true (and what I was trying to say initially, before I edited my post to reduce clarity), early on at least, before they just started flat-out aping Motown rather than channeling it through an intermediary British source.

ZR (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:12 (fifteen years ago) link

also "aping" is a goofy-looking word when it's used with any frequency.

ZR (teenagequiet), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 16:13 (fifteen years ago) link

*I like some of the Mod covers better'n the Motown originals though - Action's "I'll Keep Holding On" and Small Faces' "Baby Don't You Do It" kinda pwn their respective sources*

OTM ZR

dr x o'skeleton, Monday, 20 February 2006 10:40 (fifteen years ago) link


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