t/s: battle of the electric postbop protokozmigroovers - eddie harris vs eddie henderson vs donald byrd vs freddie hubbard vs bobby hutcherson

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these are the only guys i really check for in the jazz section, anymore.

i was going to add chick corea, flora purim, joe henderson and bobby humphrey to the sweepstakes, but i don't think they really fit in (too hectic, too ethnic, too "out" and too poppy, respectively)

vahid (vahid), Thursday, 9 February 2006 07:24 (sixteen years ago) link


Andy_K (Andy_K), Thursday, 9 February 2006 10:03 (sixteen years ago) link

L.Ron Hubbard?

Mestema (davidcorp), Thursday, 9 February 2006 10:19 (sixteen years ago) link

i need to hear the eddie hendersons.

mullygrubbr (bulbs), Thursday, 9 February 2006 11:16 (sixteen years ago) link

donald byrd -- covers all the bases. por ejemplo:

Byrd In Hand – hard bop
Electric Byrd – soul jazz
Black Byrd – jazz/funk fusion
Spaces & Places – R&B/disco fusion

freddie hubbard is just as prolific & less consistent IMO. he's better as a sideman than leader, appears on TONS of classic blue note sessions. Maiden Voyage, Out To Lunch, Speak No Evil, Doin Alright The Turnaround and so on.

also on bobby hutcherson's Stick-Up! try freddie's Hub Tones or Breaking Point. see also CTI albums like Red Clay but those arrangements are a little slick for my taste.

eddie harris played an amplified sax on a lot of his Atlantic albums, never cared for the sound myself. but I love his super-slick mid 70s funk album I Need Some Money .

eddie henderson I'm barely familiar with. what am I missing?

m coleman (lovebug starski), Thursday, 9 February 2006 11:58 (sixteen years ago) link

No Herbie Hancock? Anyway, out of these I have to pick Eddie Henderson for Sunburst alone. Don't forget Billy Cobham either.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 9 February 2006 12:06 (sixteen years ago) link

eddie harris - only have an album or two by him. kinda eh.

eddie henderson - was given 3 mp3 albums. never listened to them. i've been off the jazz for a while, but getting more into it. should pull them out. they're supposed to sound like Mwandishi? i just listened to that this weekend and was well impressed again.

Donald Byrd - love New Perspective (big vocal choruses). love Places & Spaces and Stepping into Tomorrow.

Freddie Hubbard - love his cti stuff. Red Clay, Keep Your Soul Together, Straight Life are all amazing.

Bobby Hutcherson - Now! is one of my fave albums. Huge vocal, eugene mcdaniels singing. Linger Lane is great. San Francisco is ho hum.

team jaxon (jaxon), Thursday, 9 February 2006 18:19 (sixteen years ago) link

Anyone heard those Marcus Belgrave reissues?

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 9 February 2006 18:25 (sixteen years ago) link

Bobby Hutcherson - I saw him live last year and he was WONDERFUL, like most folks he's back to the old school pre-electric but v. invigorating performance.

Freddie is great, although I prefer his pre-electric w the exception of "Red Clay"

Donald Byrd is so good, I'm surprised more producers haven't sampled his stuff from a New Perspective.

I've never really listened to the Eddies.

deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 9 February 2006 18:49 (sixteen years ago) link

Given the subject header, I think vahid's nodding toward a certain era for each of these players. That being, it's a tight call between Eddie Henderson's INSIDE OUT and Donald Byrd's ETHIOPIAN KNIGHTS. The latter BTW features Hutcherson and Land's most kozmik work (yes, including NOW's "The Creators.")

I've yet to hear a unified Eddie Harris album though I suppose that's what endeared him to many. I keep hoping that someone would compile all of his free funk comprovisations-- "Free Speech", "Abstractions" "Conversations of Everything & Nothing", others?

There's more than one Belgrave reissue?

doug watson (solid air), Friday, 10 February 2006 03:07 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah i'm basically asking about 1968-1975

vahid (vahid), Friday, 10 February 2006 03:31 (sixteen years ago) link

not well versed in henderson or hubbard - and only familiar with the more famous (ie, sampled) stuff of Hutcherson and Byrd... but I do have Eddie Harris' "Silver Cycles" and the title track is probably the best use of an echoplex with a horn ever. Really beautiful and weird drone, and then about halfway through it catches a blues groove. The rest of the album is pretty much nothing like that tho, unfortunately.

I guess I'd probably go with Byrd.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 10 February 2006 17:55 (sixteen years ago) link

Get Larry Young's Fuel, "Turn Out the Lights".

polyphonic (polyphonic), Friday, 10 February 2006 17:59 (sixteen years ago) link

certain trax of Eddie Harris are killer, tho i guess i can't think of one full album either.

Beta (abeta), Friday, 10 February 2006 21:41 (sixteen years ago) link

are "places + spaces" and "steppin into tomorrow" going to get the blue note reissue treatment? or not, because blue note is obssessed with rudy van gelder and not the mizells? because the mizells are suddenly super-hot again, at least in certain circles.

personally, i'm leaning towards donald byrd right now just because of "electric byrd", which is better than "bitches brew" or "in a silent way" or just about any electric fusion set i can think of, but i definitely need to hear more eddie harris.

is the "electrifying eddie harris"/"plug me in" two-fer the place to start with eddie?

also hubbard is fantastic but doesn't seem to have tons of depth in his catalog. what's beyond "red clay" and "straight life"? "backlash" is OK but not really kozmic, everything else good seems to be your standard trad-modal mellow comping sets.

finally, re: hutcherson, which do you like better - "montara" or "san francisco"? classic, or dud? i have a feeling both are a little too ... bob james to be serious comp for byrd or hubbard.

eddie henderson = no-show! no love for "sunburst"?

vahid (vahid), Friday, 17 February 2006 23:24 (sixteen years ago) link

personally, i'm leaning towards donald byrd right now just because of "electric byrd", which is better than "bitches brew" or "in a silent way" or just about any electric fusion set i can think of, but i definitely need to hear more eddie harris.

ok, wow. those are some big words. i'm gonna have to throw it on right now (don't think i've ever even heard the whole thing through.

team jaxon (jaxon), Saturday, 18 February 2006 00:14 (sixteen years ago) link

i've got "electrifying eddie harris". also don't remember any of it - meaning i didn't think too highly of it, but i'll put it on soon too.

team jaxon (jaxon), Saturday, 18 February 2006 00:15 (sixteen years ago) link

and i still haven't listened to those hendersons. man. you're makin me have a jazz day.

team jaxon (jaxon), Saturday, 18 February 2006 00:15 (sixteen years ago) link

My copies of Places and Street Lady were reissued in '97. 2000 for Steppin', I think. They sound fine to me.

I'll vouch for Henderson's first three. Beyond that (through Running to Your Love, at least), they get spotty. Tuomas mentioned the greatness of Sunburst above and I'm certain that both of us commented on it on another recent thread.

I'm missing a couple Hubbards from '68-'75, but I either like or love just about all of the ones I do have -- The Black Angel, Red Clay, First Light Sky Dive, Polar AC. Love love LOVE the Stylistics cover on Polar AC.

Really gotta get my hands on some more Harris and Young.

Andy_K (Andy_K), Saturday, 18 February 2006 00:33 (sixteen years ago) link

ok, on side two of electric byrd, and it's not even in the same league as bitches brew or in a silent way. you're crazy.

team jaxon (jaxon), Saturday, 18 February 2006 00:42 (sixteen years ago) link

i lied. i have Eddie Harris' "Plug Me In". it's pretty much just straight hard-bop, boogaloo. it's from 68, so i wouldn't expect much else. nice, but i'm not so into that stuff.

team jaxon (jaxon), Saturday, 18 February 2006 01:22 (sixteen years ago) link

i'm currently listening to Eddie Henderson's "Inside Out" for the first time (the first of 3 discs i have of his), and, well,,, it's seriously turning up a notch on the competition. super heavy, groovy, spacey. if it only had vocals i think it might win out against byrd.

are these really hard to get? i've heard people talk about them like they are.

team jaxon (jaxon), Saturday, 18 February 2006 02:29 (sixteen years ago) link

are these really hard to get? i've heard people talk about them like they are.
Jaxon, Dusty's still listing the Soul Brother comp of the first two Eddie Hendersons. The Blue Note reissue of SUNBURST may well have fallen outta print. Jazz reissues tend to have ridiculously short half-lives.

It's good to note that Eddie Henderson took a s stylistic leap with his move to Blue Note that paralleled Herbie's move from Mwandishi to Headhunters (despite Eddie having retained more of the original sextet.) I'm with Andy K's warning re. post-SUNBURST joints, with the exception that the second half of Eddie's HERITAGE is as strong as anything on SUNBURST.

Vahid, get the Hubbard/Turrentine LIVE IN CONCERT. Or check eMusic for the Celluloid reissue under Herbie's name (LIVE:DETROIT/CHICAGO), with BOTH versions of "Hornets." Hubbard's KEEP YOUR SOUL TOGETHER and HIGH ENERGY-- his first for Columbia-- are on par with Eddie Henderson's first two Blue Notes (though not his Capricorns.) Prolly Japanese-only CDs, if that.

Dammit, I gotta get my turntable fixed.

doug watson (solid air), Sunday, 19 February 2006 03:25 (sixteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...

practically half the songs on the mo'wax compilations "headz" and "royalties overdue" sample from hutcherson's "san francisco"???

OK i still need to get the eddie harris and henderson albums people having been raving about ... but now, on the strength of "san francisco" alone, i am willing to call hutcherson the leading horse in the byrd / hubbard / hutcherson sweepstakes.

jaxon! why did you call it hohum?

vahid (vahid), Friday, 10 March 2006 06:35 (sixteen years ago) link

"electric byrd", which is better than "bitches brew" or "in a silent way"

??? just listened to EB this week and while it's good bump & grind soul jazz it's a far cry from IASW and BB!!!

I love how Sunburst moves from fusion to free-form blwoing.

m coleman (lovebug starski), Friday, 10 March 2006 11:21 (sixteen years ago) link

alright, listening to San Francisco again. it's really pretty. i'm wanting to remember that i didn't like it, but i guess i do. that repetitive bassline in "Print Tie" is awesome. the mellow build of "Procession" is amazing. at the time i sold it, i felt it didn't have any of the things that i require for a jazz album to be a favorite. spiritual, having vocals, weird or funky. i was never really a fan of the blue note sound, and just put this in that category, but it's a cool album and glad i kept the mp3s before i sold it.

team jaxon (jaxon), Friday, 10 March 2006 19:40 (sixteen years ago) link

also, i don't know the Headz or Royalty Overdue comps

team jaxon (jaxon), Friday, 10 March 2006 19:41 (sixteen years ago) link

one year passes...


pretty grover washington, but i like it

deej, Wednesday, 5 September 2007 04:36 (fifteen years ago) link

you want "pressure sensitive"

also HOLY SHIT @ jan hammer "melodies", thank u andy k for helping me see the light??

moonship journey to baja, Wednesday, 5 September 2007 04:40 (fifteen years ago) link

hmm yeah some of the 'funk' on this is sounding kind of hokey actually, was just v. excited by the first track

deej, Wednesday, 5 September 2007 04:43 (fifteen years ago) link

isnt that the dude that did the miami vice theme (i wish to god i could remember why i knew that) xp

deej, Wednesday, 5 September 2007 04:45 (fifteen years ago) link

ugh yeah man never mind my endorsement of this, its actually pretty wack beyond 'lets keep it together'

deej, Wednesday, 5 September 2007 04:49 (fifteen years ago) link

yeah, miami vice soundtrack. (it's on leo right now). but hammer has done some fucking epic shit. even some of the tracks on the vice soundtrack are amazing. he's on that al dimeola album i told you to check for the other day in the dollar bin and one of the seriously best songs ever made. "Juice Harp" by David Earle Johnson. i originally found this on bumrocks, but put down some cash to find the record.

jaxon, Wednesday, 5 September 2007 05:40 (fifteen years ago) link

oh, and obviously he was in Mahavishnu Orchestra. Inner Mounting Flame is one of the best albums EVER.

jaxon, Wednesday, 5 September 2007 05:41 (fifteen years ago) link

this is also a seriously great rec, esp. the title track:


Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 5 September 2007 06:17 (fifteen years ago) link

six months pass...

shit kids why am I just discovering this stuff

El Tomboto, Monday, 17 March 2008 22:51 (fourteen years ago) link

I feel like a huge asshole

El Tomboto, Monday, 17 March 2008 22:52 (fourteen years ago) link

also though why isn't Les McCann on here at all? Especially "Layers" I mean wtf it's arp jazz and robert hood kind of ripped off the album cover for internal empire!

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 05:42 (fourteen years ago) link

also amazon reviewer who complained about "the dude" on electric byrd: you are are out of your fucking mind

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 05:48 (fourteen years ago) link

it is not weird that you are just discovering this stuff because you are like the poster boy for square dudes.

chaki, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 06:26 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh, fuck you.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 06:52 (fourteen years ago) link

eddie henderson = no-show! no love for "sunburst"?

-- vahid (vahid), Friday, February 17, 2006 3:24 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Link

I never saw this thread, but I love Sunburst, especially Kumquat Kids and the title track, which has that awesome fuzzy intro.

Lolpez, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 17:17 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm kinda over this stuff.

Jordan, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 17:18 (fourteen years ago) link

alright seeya

moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 17:21 (fourteen years ago) link

jordan this is better shit for folks who otherwise dont give a shit about jazz to get into than, like, ornette coleman corny avant fuxxors

deej, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 17:27 (fourteen years ago) link

hey, I give a shit about jazz. I just don't like a lot of trumpet, which is a handicap. EG I gave Sunburst a good listen but couldn't get into it.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 19:08 (fourteen years ago) link

Kind of unrelated btw but the Jeff Beck + Jan Hammer Live album is hilarious

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 19:08 (fourteen years ago) link

I realize that irony has no place in serious music enjoyment but if I'm paying $7 for something I can chuckle to myself while playing air instruments all I please

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 19:11 (fourteen years ago) link

you should listen to red clay and straight life anyway

chaki, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 21:08 (fourteen years ago) link

I saw Eddie Henderson once a few years back at the Jazz Standard with the late great Hilton Ruiz. Pretty cool. I also very much enjoyed his liner notes for Miles's Someday My Prince Will Come, where he talks about Miles attitude towards Coltrane ("He lost his mind and can't play no more") and Hank Mobley (mimes hitting somebody over head with trumpet when hears fluffed notes) and describes why the people loved so much the first quintet in its various incarnations. Also like the fact that he is a psychiatrist (psychologist?)

James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 21:18 (fourteen years ago) link

Check it out Eddie Henderson: Healing With Music.

James Redd and the Blecchs, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 21:22 (fourteen years ago) link

pretty grover washington, but i like it

deej, have you heard the Kudu-era Grover albums? I think you'd really dig those.

Andy K, Tuesday, 18 March 2008 22:07 (fourteen years ago) link

wow what a story thanks james redd.

sunburst might be my favorite fusion album, spaced-out and funked-up at the same time.

i was rong upthread about freddie hubbard on cti, red clay & straight life are straight-ahead/swingin'.

m coleman, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 09:33 (fourteen years ago) link

Les McCann + Eddie Harris - "Cold Duck Time"

^ one of my all-time favorite recordings

Curt1s Stephens, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 09:37 (fourteen years ago) link


didn't realize there was a video!

this was the first time any of them had seen the music (except Harris). Trumpet solo is super off-the-rails wicked.

Curt1s Stephens, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 09:41 (fourteen years ago) link

electric byrd is an awesome record, guys

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 19 March 2008 15:45 (fourteen years ago) link

seven months pass...

I repeat, electric byrd is an awesome record, also, "the dude" is the fuckin' jam. Pretty much the best track ever for doing the morning stretch dance, you know, how you do the whole crick the neck and rub your hands and work your elbows like you just got up in the morning and have a lot of serious swaggering to do that day, but be funky about the process.

TOMBOT, Friday, 24 October 2008 04:52 (thirteen years ago) link

three years pass...

awesome spaced out sounds all around this one

river, Thursday, 19 January 2012 04:00 (ten years ago) link

uh talking about Electric Byrd

I'm seeing bobby hutcherson Saturday

river, Thursday, 19 January 2012 04:01 (ten years ago) link

dexter wansel belongs in this conversation. manzel too.

san lazaro, Thursday, 19 January 2012 04:13 (ten years ago) link

three months pass...

amazing video

tylerw, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 21:21 (ten years ago) link

two years pass...

All about this tune today

man alive, Thursday, 1 January 2015 03:42 (seven years ago) link

one year passes...

surprised this is the only Bobby Hutcherson thread, but RIP ... one of the greats

tylerw, Tuesday, 16 August 2016 14:28 (six years ago) link

gave out to lunch a listen for the first time in a while last week and his playing on that is so cool.

bagging area (map), Tuesday, 16 August 2016 15:15 (six years ago) link

Also love his first (released) Blue Note alb as leader, Dialogue - one of the three or four most 'out' Blue Note discs for def, and what a line-up - Andrew Hill, Sam Rivers, Freddie Hubbard, Richard Davis, Joe Chambers

Foster Twelvetrees (Ward Fowler), Tuesday, 16 August 2016 15:20 (six years ago) link

Dialogue is great!


Οὖτις, Tuesday, 16 August 2016 15:57 (six years ago) link

damn, RIP. saw him live a few years ago on his birthday and it was excellent even though he had slowed down a lot. great band, had another vibe player that was a total shredder. i swear they did a cover of the jan hammer/jeff beck song "blue wind".

brimstead, Tuesday, 16 August 2016 19:03 (six years ago) link

24hr memorial broadcast right now on WKCR:

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 00:45 (six years ago) link

he had a ridiculous amount of great albums from 66-72

great Canadian prog-psych debut from 1969 (Sparkle Motion), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 05:39 (six years ago) link


He was such a positive and creative force. Always challenging himself to the very end, his last album Enjoy the View has the feel of one of his classic Blue Note albums from the late 60's. Just a huge personality that emanated good feelings.

Austin, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 15:17 (six years ago) link

jammed san francisco three times yesterday -- such an excellent LP, occasionally leaning in the CTI soul funk direction, but never getting too syrupy, and plenty of really edgy playing.

tylerw, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 15:28 (six years ago) link

I think, when it's all said and done, San Francisco may just be my favorite album of his. But, holy hell, what a ridiculously difficult choice.

Austin, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 15:31 (six years ago) link

Head On has always been my favorite, but then I just listened to San Francisco for the very first time yesterday. Damn, why did I not know that album?

great Canadian prog-psych debut from 1969 (Sparkle Motion), Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:08 (six years ago) link

Head On is great, a little artier/more challenging ... iirc the bonus tracks on the CD reissue are pretty fantastic too.

tylerw, Wednesday, 17 August 2016 19:24 (six years ago) link

three years pass...

Thanks to bargain bins, I’ve spent more time with Hutcherson’s supposedly lesser albums, and there’s a lot to love!

'Knuckle Bean,' 'Highway One' and 'Solo/Quartet' are all really cool listens.

The A-Side of ‘Solo/Quartet’ is Hutcherson alone playing vibes, marimba and other percussion via overdubbing. It’s spacey, sort of ambient and almost gives me the same kind of vibe as the Japanese “environmental music” that’s all the rage these days. I love the track 'Gotcha': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAJqCPDVePU

cooldix, Monday, 23 March 2020 06:34 (two years ago) link

great find

budo jeru, Monday, 23 March 2020 22:25 (two years ago) link

one year passes...

man, been on a bobby hutcherson kick again lately and was going to post one of the solo tracks myself! that single side of that album is just unbelievable. it's not on any streaming service in full! that stuff feels like "loop station" jams two decades before that was even possible. such a unique thing, i would have been over the moon with a full album of material like that. as it stands, it's just a completely amazing anomaly in his catalogue.

going for my second listen of the day on harold land's the peace-maker from 1968. one of the lesser-discussed projects in their series of collaborations and holy hell, what a masterpiece. harold is at his coltrane-inspired best, writing all but one of the tunes. he really blacks out on the opening title track. there's an uncredited (afaict) harmonica (!!) performance on "stylin`" and the mighty buster williams is on bass throughout. such a gem of an album, i can't believe that it's still never received a proper u.s. reissue. highly recommended.

get shrunk by this funk. (Austin), Saturday, 29 January 2022 17:32 (eight months ago) link

two months pass...

This just arrived in the mail.



Chuckling at myself heavily atm.

Haven't heard the whole album in years. Will play it and report back.

Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Tuesday, 29 March 2022 21:16 (six months ago) link

Oh, it's wonderful of course and I still absolutely love it. Second half was a lot more enjoyable than I remembered it and McCoy Tyner sounds as great as ever (but I am also much more excited to hear it this time). Nothing beats side A though. I think I like it so much because it was just a unique thing for a jazz guy to do a Mike Oldfield kind of setup. And it's just filled with all of those lovely percussive harmonic layers give it a very exotic feel. Almost Martin Denny meets Miles Davis — so much fun! Very classic album in desperate need of a proper reissue.

Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Tuesday, 29 March 2022 23:57 (six months ago) link

*; gives

Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Tuesday, 29 March 2022 23:58 (six months ago) link

Classic! Might have to whip out the record now.

cooldix, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 00:03 (six months ago) link

I find no fault in doing so! Used vinyl leaning towards the cheapish end for now, but going up (just like everything else!). Worth every penny, I'd say.

Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Wednesday, 30 March 2022 00:12 (six months ago) link

this Calvin Keys album that was reissued recently is so great: https://www.discogs.com/master/592769-Calvin-Keys-Proceed-With-Caution

brimstead, Wednesday, 30 March 2022 01:02 (six months ago) link

have been really rockin hubbard's keep your soul together lately

flamenco drop (BradNelson), Wednesday, 30 March 2022 01:08 (six months ago) link

How has Grant Green not been mentioned yet in this thread? Alive and Live At The Lighthouse are both in the pantheon here. Also Herbie Hancock's Fat Albert Rotunda.

(I'm definitely going to check out Solo/Quartet based on Austin's write-up... I'm only familiar with San Francisco and Montara)

enochroot, Thursday, 31 March 2022 02:29 (six months ago) link

five months pass...

not exactly the right thread for this, but then again i can trace the discovery of the opening tune here back to cooldix's march 2020 post. so here's my covid summer jazz mixtape, which i gave to a friend and promptly forgot about until tonight while rummaging through old cassettes in his basement:


1. bobby hutcherson - gotcha
2. binder quintet w/ john tchicai - közép-európai zajongások (excerpt)
3. dave holland and sam rivers - conference of the birds
4. chico freeman - kings of mali
5. harmut geerken and john tchicai - invocations for angels and demons
6. don cherry and latif khan - airmail
7. wendell harrison - where am i
8. ?
9. the pyramids - black man and woman of the nile

props to anyone who can help me ID track 8. starts around 46:40, it's a live recording with like a bongo solo, then a flute joins in, and then a band comes in briefly before it fades out.

budo jeru, Friday, 16 September 2022 05:22 (two weeks ago) link

I never really considered checking out that Solo/Quartet album (solo vibes? from 1980?!), but listening to "Gotcha" now, I realize the error of my ways. I should have just trusted Austin.

enochroot, Friday, 16 September 2022 16:07 (two weeks ago) link

I'm definitely going to check out Solo/Quartet based on Austin's write-up

― enochroot, Wednesday, March 30, 2022

Heh, ok, I guess I did consider it.

enochroot, Friday, 16 September 2022 16:10 (two weeks ago) link

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