The Popism Backlash.

(*as in Charlotte)

This is a potentially interesting thread but not if it's just going to be potshots at Dissensus.

I'll travel back in time!

Not meant to be loaded question - I'm not implying that all backlashes to date have been illegitimate.

What's this about Gabbo?

I've (obviously) been much more present on ILM over the last few weeks than I have for many, many months, and increasingly it strikes me that popism is taking a beating for being just as reactionary as rockism ever was, i.e. the knee-jerk assumption that all "boys with guitars" are necessarily rubbish, for example. Just today there have been a number of weary castigations of popism. After a few years of pop dominace in the charts and in critics favour (at least many critics represented here) is the current re-ascendency of rock in the charts and the broadsheets manifesting itsle fhere too?

AND CAN WE EVER LIVE IN HARMONY? Cos all I've ever wanted to be able to do is listen to Embrace, Boards Of Canada and Sugababes with equal enjoyment and not be shunned.

Many Xs - where's Mark S' point about popist rockism?

"cdn't u say the same abt 'rockism' and rockists, tho?"

Yes except rockism has a more entrenched heritage of official reasons for taste which people can refer (and defer) to.

i'm thinking of MIA again...

but also of course that a big part of fandom for rock/indie fans is stuff like band mythology and interviews and all that post-smiths *stuff* that you don't get with rachel stevens, however good her songs (and videos, though hers aren't much to speak of) are. for rockists, how a band formed is *important*, even if it's strictly irrelevant to the music. popists kind of have to ignore that, because there's nothing to latch on to. now you can hate that part of rockism all you like, but it's important to lots of people.

anyway:
"it doesn't matter whether you're into ornette coleman or the sex pistols, when it comes down to it everyone is basically a max bygraves fan at heart" (chris barber in the nme, 1978)

you don't get it around r stevens because she's boring which even the most ardent popists admit.

-- The Lex (alex.macpherso...), October 20th, 2005.

hmm, that's true. but look at the morrissey cult -- it's *still going*. men *still dress that way*. there must be *something* there to explain that, and i think it's that rock mythology is, for whatever reason, more powerful than the gossip-cult around GA or whoever.

I was just about to say that, Marcello. A problem with hitching your allegiance to popism is because it really is a nebulous little thing. I value pop and popist things, but, as distinct from rockism, I don't think that everything has to be judged on those bases.

As such, I prefer poptimist, because it basically holds that pop can be, and is good.

Oh, and Tom, check yr gmail.

i think the reason is that morrissey fans are FUCKING WEIRDOS. they would have to be to &c &c.

Hey!

x-post: aye, Tezza is OTM, there is rockism abt pop (hiya Lex) but this is NOT ant-rockism.

Bob Dylan is better than Charlotte Church. That's just a fact.

A 'popist' sez:

No way, boring Bob is rubbish compared to Charlotte Church. That's just a fact.

Here's what I actually think:

Listening to music is made up of a series of moments, like coin tosses or dice throws. At any given moment I might find Bob suits me better, or Charlotte. Over time, it's likely Bob will win a lot more often than Charlotte. But during those moments when I want Charlotte, no amount of Bob will suffice. The 'rockist' or 'rockist-about-pop' mistake is to imagine that the 'over time' is what matters, not the moment.

(For 'Bob' and 'Charlotte' insert whoever you want.)

This third point of view is, you'll notice, considerably less snappy than the other two.

-- edward o

http://ilx.wh3rd.net/newanswers.php?board=2 ;)

I tend to fall squarely into the third point of view. (Actually, I always prefer Charlotte to Bob. I don't dislike Bob Dylan for being boring, I just don't like the sounds of his records.)

1. Boring simulacrum of old AoR.
2. Bad Rick James impersonation trying its damnedest not to be pop.
3. Pop. Bad pop, but pop nonetheless.
4. Tedious recycling of ten-year-old musical "tricks."
5. Meatloaf, will probably outsell every other single this year except "Crazy."
6. A plot lost.
7. A Proper Hit, I suppose, but rubbish and not very pop.
8. AoR balladry to be filed next to Richard Marx.
9. AoR balladry to be filed on the other side of Richard Marx.
10. zzzzzz

I assume the sarcasm tags should have been inserted here?

2 2 (4)
Justin Timberlake
Sexyback

3 25 (2)
Fergie
London Bridge

4 3 (3)
Nelly Furtado Ft Timbaland
Promiscuous

5 NEW
New Entry (-)
Killers
When You Were Young

6 4 (3)
Robbie Williams
Rudebox

7 5 (14)
Shakira Ft Wyclef Jean
Hips Don't Lie

8 6 (9)
Snow Patrol
Chasing Cars

9 9 (4)
The Feeling
Never Be Lonely

10 28 (2)
Jamelia
Something About You

I really like 2 out of those 10, like 4, think two are bad but interesting, loathe 1 and haven't heard 1. I think I am still a 'popist', oh well.

8. AoR balladry to be filed next to The Feeling.

Have you guys been checking out the comments Idolator is getting on some of its posts? And/or Stereogum? And/or Louis Jagger? Just not true.

Oh hey, I forgot I posted on this thread.

2. If it is possible, is it desirable?

I'm leaning towards "no" on both, but I haven't yet properly articulated my position to myself. Why do we have to accept music on its own terms? What if we think those terms are lousy? Can't we reject them and still sleep easy at night?

But I don't think it harmful to hold it to multiple paradigms, or for the ethic and paradigm to change based on your social and personal situation. Maybe this is equivalent to holding it to none, I don't know.

justin timberlake
fergie
nelly furtado
shakira

Than you're lying.

I'm guessing you loathe The Feeling? Or is it Snow Patrol?

xpost, Ronan - Snow Patrol: loathe (even more than the last Snow Patrol lot!). Feeling: not had the pleasure.

Really like: Justin and Nelly, actually Justin is really REALLY like, and Nelly is like more than average.

(x-post)

I was clearly referring to the kids, not yours truly.

Arcade Fire, Annie, and Kanye West inspire the same kinds of pleasure.

but... not.

See above.

I'll admit he could have chosen better examples.
-- Space Gourmand (papiermachealamphibia...), September 18th, 2006.

My post last year was inspired by flipping thru a student's iPod.

No need to be flippant, this was a serious question, not necessarily a criticism of you personally or even your post. I find the avg. 19y.o. (whoever that is) has more of an ideological stance towards music than people here.

If we don't exempt ourselves from "ethics and paradigms" (not scare quotes, I just like this turn of phrase really), should we make them transparent (and how)? The slide to what "kids today" like(these are scare quotes) that always seems to happen in these debates seems to be a certain kind of "e&p" argument, although one I really hate -- I listened to some crap when I was 19, don't know about the rest of you.

I'm supposed to write a long essay on the listening habits of my stduents, based in part on the responses I got last year. From what I've experienced the last 12 months, the idealogical purity of 19-y-olds is a chimera. Just this morning I overheard a group debating Chris Brown vs Ne-Yo and the merits of the new Timberlake album. One guy (the class wise-ass) was quite sincere in his love for the JT: "It's got a great beat and I dance to it in the car," he said when I quizzed him.

They do love purported autobiographical narratives, though. The same JT-loving guy said Nas was "the greatest rapper ever" because, according to this white 18-y-old, "he told you what life on the street was really like."

(I like 4 of top ten. 5 I've not yet heard, and the Justin single is rubbish).

At the start of popism in its current form (1999), the top 10 was awash with manufactured pop acts, and indie was on its deathbed. After nine years of popist cheerleading, no new pop act has had a major impact on the charts since 2002, and the biggest female solo star in America is the chick from the Moldy Peaches.

Maybe you guys shouldn't have bothered?

Had absolutely no idea that Amy Winehouse was in the Moldy Peaches.

Wait. Peaches is doing Amy Winehouse?

She got bored with the Stranglers.

peaches and whitehouse, together at last

If only Ms Whitehouse had attempted to "fuck the pain away" then perhaps she wouldn't have needed to become addicted to these so-called "drugs".

And feebly attempt to make up for it by inventing the so-called National Viewers and Listeners Association.

Snakes on a Plane!

So the guy from Whitehouse is a woman now and is starring in the sequel to Snakes on a Plane!?

Yah. Cuba Gooding Jr.'s set to direct.

Unfortunately Javier Bardem was not available to reprise his BAFTA-winning role as The Pub Landlord.

Four candles.

We are now paying the price for disregarding the warning that Rui Da Silva Featuring Cassandra gave us many years ago, viz. "We can only understand what we are shown."

Couldn't inspire Portugal to a trophy tho could he

Can we Sin Bin 'That one guy that hit it and quit it' and 'Dom Passantino'

When the, streets is watching
Blocks keep clocking
Waiting for you to break, make your first mistake
Can't ignore it

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/04/17/business/17music.xlarge1.jpg

In the end, popism lacked its John Carew.

It had plenty of Zoltan Steibers, though.

I don't think AMM-style free improv would've helped the cause any.

Occupation: Angry waiter and musical theater legend

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