Bob Dylan vs Lou Reed - who is the supreme poet of NYC?

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Apologies if this has been done before.

I say Lou. And I will clarify, but not yet - what say you?

― toby taylor, Friday, 30 September 2005 20:21 (twenty years ago)

neither, it's Laurie Anderson

..i crack myself up

― mookié wilson (mookie wilson), Friday, 30 September 2005 20:25 (twenty years ago)

On the basis that Bob's from Minnesota, Lou.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Friday, 30 September 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)

just for today the answer is adam green.

― cake (cake), Friday, 30 September 2005 20:33 (twenty years ago)

And does anyone else here rate Delmore Schwartz whilst we're at it? "Summer Knowledge" is quite, quite brilliant.

Anyway, please don't focus on the 'supreme poet of NYC' thang too literally...

Did they even like each other's material? Wasn't "I Can't Stand It" a sly dig at Dylan's lyrical schtick? Lou apparently considered Bob to be the kind of person 'you'd ask to shut up at a party'.

― toby taylor, Friday, 30 September 2005 20:33 (twenty years ago)

b-b-but didn't Bob kick off his career in NY, right? And Lou was your(a)typical suburban outsider aspiring to metropolitan glamour, was he not?

― toby taylor, Friday, 30 September 2005 20:35 (twenty years ago)

grandmaster flash or jay-z or biggie. actually probably just biggie.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 September 2005 20:38 (twenty years ago)

Of course.

― toby taylor, Friday, 30 September 2005 20:41 (twenty years ago)

Dylan over Lou Reed.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 September 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)

Well that settles it. Thanks everyone.

― toby taylor, Friday, 30 September 2005 20:43 (twenty years ago)

Dylan is the greater pop personality and talent than reed, any day. But on this specific question, it's Lou. NYC was never a big part of Bob's schtick; he's talked as much about, say, New Orleans (about which he waxes in Chronicles). Lou Reed has always posed himself as NYC and nothing but. So putting Dylan in the frame is probably a bit of a category mistake. Even Stephin Merritt might be an apter rival.

― the pinefox, Friday, 30 September 2005 20:45 (twenty years ago)

Rock mythology-wise, didn't they both have a thing for Edie Segwick? They crossed paths at Warhol's factory and all that... Lou, I'm sure, would deny it to his dying day, but his early VU talk-singing style was definitely Dylan-influenced ("There She Goes Again," anyone? Am I the only one who hears Dylan in this? "You know she'll never ask you PLEASE again!").

Ya ever heard Lou's version of "Foot of Pride" from the mostly terrible Dylan 30th Anniversary Concert? Figures he'd pick a tune from the regrettable years, of course (and an unreleased one to boot). Clever dick, that Lou Reed.

― A|ex P@reene (Pareene), Friday, 30 September 2005 20:45 (twenty years ago)

I don't think I've heard that often; some have praised it. But you make me think: yes - even though Bob's NYC isn't that much of a subject, Dylan / Reed as a general pop relationship, rivalry, whatever, is indeed an interesting vein. I've read more than once that the Velvets were anti-Dylan, but without any memorable reasons being given.

― the pinefox, Friday, 30 September 2005 20:50 (twenty years ago)

Biggie, Jay Z are good answers.

Maybe Joey Ramone.

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 30 September 2005 20:56 (twenty years ago)

Lou Reed was a punk whose albums when he was best (VU) were selling like 10,000 copies each or something. Bob Dylan was a freaking megaphone heard 'round the world.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:02 (twenty years ago)

The best defense of Lou is prolly that he's more of a true NYC'er than Dylan....

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:05 (twenty years ago)

Adam Green and Biggie are the best answers so far.

Maybe someone could hook Green up with a "BEYOND THE GRAVE" guest verse from Chris W for his next album?

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

ellison with the "sales is KING" argument! wow!

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:13 (twenty years ago)

no, it's not that, duder. but lou reed was way more marginal. he was more marginal than sonny bono, too, but this is dylan we're talking about.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:15 (twenty years ago)

so how does his being "marginal" have any bearing on his alleged "poetry"?

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:31 (twenty years ago)

because you think about the impact that art has. and lou reed's songs had marginal appeal whereas in this case i think the public at large picked up on something with dylan - the fact that his songs were often, you know, STUNNING! literally.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)

so? art has inherent qualities, not just on how many people experience it.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:39 (twenty years ago)

well, dylan vs. lou reed, I pick Dylan. I do so because I find his early music to often be stunning. I like the VU a lot, but I don't find them to be STUNNING in the same way. just pointing out that it would seem that this might have been a common perspective given dylan's impact vs. lou reed's impact.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:44 (twenty years ago)

Lou Reed's impact was pretty fucking un-marginal, dude

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:45 (twenty years ago)

compared to dylan's?

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 30 September 2005 21:46 (twenty years ago)

Jim Carroll

― Marcus Barr (Marcus Barr), Friday, 30 September 2005 23:30 (twenty years ago)

Ogden Nash

― joseph cotten (joseph cotten), Friday, 30 September 2005 23:35 (twenty years ago)

Todd Rundgren

― jim wentworth (wench), Friday, 30 September 2005 23:47 (twenty years ago)

Jack Kerouac

― DJMonsterMo, Saturday, 1 October 2005 00:19 (twenty years ago)

compared to anyone's, Tim.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Saturday, 1 October 2005 00:43 (twenty years ago)

"AND NOW I'D LIKE TO INTRODUCE TO YOU A YOUNG SINGER FROM NEW YORK WHO HAS BEEN CALLED 'THE VOICE OF A GENERATION'. HE'S GOING TO PERFORM HIS NEW COMPOSITION 'VENUS IN FURS' FOR YOU NOW; PLEASE WELCOME LOU REED!!!"

http://www.historyplace.com/specials/calendar/docs-pix/march-wash.jpg

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Saturday, 1 October 2005 00:49 (twenty years ago)

yeah, I'd have to go with Biggie.

― mookié wilson (mookie wilson), Saturday, 1 October 2005 01:08 (twenty years ago)

This thread fills me with the desire to hear Bob Dylan sing with a very thick New York accent.

― Bimble The Nimble, Jumped Over A Thimble! (Bimble...), Saturday, 1 October 2005 03:27 (twenty years ago)

wayyyyy x-post

ive been reading a lot of delmore schwartz recently, In Dreams Begin Responsibilities is very very good. are the poems good too?

― JD from CDepot, Saturday, 1 October 2005 03:30 (twenty years ago)

Lou Reed is much more a New York artist than Dylan. I mean, New York was crucial to Dylan, but I don't think Dylan was crucial to New York. Lou has embodied (for better and worse) decades of New York boho hipsterdom -- he's a New York archetype. Even knowing Dylan's early history, I don't think of him as a New Yorker, exactly -- he's too elusive to nail down like that. And he hasn't written obsessively about New York the way Lou has. If the question was TS Dylan vs. Lou, then Dylan is the Greater Genius. But the question's about New York, and Lou is way more New York.

(Speaking of Lou, I saw him do some songs at one of the many Katrina benefits, in Central Park on Wednesday. He was great -- had Laurie playing violin, sawing away Cale-style. The last song was a drawn-out "Jesus" with a big brawly thumping coda. Classic.)

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Saturday, 1 October 2005 03:36 (twenty years ago)

Don't both artists claim to be poets? Forgetting about the NYC issue, who is the greater poet?

― toby taylor, Saturday, 1 October 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

It ain't Lou.

― the pinefox, Saturday, 1 October 2005 14:42 (twenty years ago)

One of the more unintentionally hilarious things Lou Reed said, circa '89 in a Rolling Stone interview:

"Joyce had Dublin. Faulkner had the South. I've got New York."

― shookout (shookout), Saturday, 1 October 2005 14:55 (twenty years ago)

nonsense. it's paul simon!

― Mitch Mitchell (mitya), Sunday, 2 October 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

Ha - I like that last answer.

But, yawn.

― simian (dymaxia), Sunday, 2 October 2005 20:45 (twenty years ago)

yEAH, SHIT THREAD!

BUT LOU OVER BOB ANY DAY.

― fgdfgd, Monday, 3 October 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

Seriously though, why isn't anyone defending lou's lyrical prowess? Dylan just played games, hiding behind ambiguity - "maybe i'm saying something profound, maybe i'm reciting nursery platitudes - you decide!" - i.e. boring-arsed-pseudo-intellectual schtick whereas lou was taught by and was friends with schwartz who is infinitely preferable to ginsberg i.e. was a REAL poet (tangentially, ginsberg is just annoying, i mean 'best minds of my generation' - hold on, your fellow pot-smoking pretentious eng. lit. student m8s are the finest of their generation? - I DON'T THINK SO MATEY!!!) whereas lou just told it like it was, and celebrated trash in an interesting way.

And rocked/droned a hundred times harder than mr dylan.

― SDFSDFSD, Monday, 3 October 2005 20:40 (twenty years ago)

We've done this before.

― k/l (Ken L), Monday, 3 October 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)

Or it least it feels like we did.

― k/l (Ken L), Monday, 3 October 2005 20:42 (twenty years ago)

so, y'know, fuck you all.

― thisisnotarealemailaddress, Monday, 3 October 2005 20:44 (twenty years ago)

"telling it like it is" = way overrated concept cherished mainly by macho bores

― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 01:53 (twenty years ago)

Rock mythology-wise, didn't they both have a thing for Edie Segwick?

'Twas Nico. Till Nico said, "I can no longer sleep with Jews". That shut Lou up.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 08:35 (twenty years ago)

It was both, wasn't it? Femme Fatale is about Edie.

― jim (jim5et), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 09:09 (twenty years ago)

Writing about someone is not the same as having a "thing" for them. Edie, however, certainly had a thing for Dylan, not reciprocated as far I'm aware. Meanwhile Warhol claims the Dylan entourage got Edie into heroin and generally (verbally and spiritually) abused her.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 09:12 (twenty years ago)

Seriously though, why isn't anyone defending lou's lyrical prowess?

These are the stories of Edgar Allan Poe
not exactly the boy next door
He'll tell you tales of horror
then he'll play with your mind
if you haven't heard of him
you must be deaf or blind

These are the stories of Edgar Allan Poe
not exactly the boy next door

He'll tell you about Usher
whose house burned in his mind
his love for his dear sister
her death would drive him wild
The murder of a stranger
the murder of a friend
the callings from the pits of hell
that never seem to end

These are the stories of Edgar Allan Poe
not exactly the boy next door
These are the stories of Edgar Allan Poe
not exactly the boy next door

The diabolic image of the city and the sea
the chaos and the carnage that reside deep within me
Decapitations, poisonings, hellish not a bore
you won't need 3D glasses to pass beyond this door

Edgar Allan Poe
not exactly the boy next door

No Nosferatu Vincent Price or naked women here
a mind unfurled, a mind unbent is all we have here
Truth, fried orangutans flutter to the stage
leave your expectations home
And listen to the stories of Edgar Allan Poe

We give you the soliloquy the raven at the door
flaming pits the moving walls no equilibrium
No ballast, no bombast
the unvarnished truth we've got
mind swoons guilty
cooking ravings in a pot

Edgar Allan Poe
not exactly the boy next door
Edgar Allan Poe
not exactly the boy next door

Tell-tale heart a rotting cask
a valley of unrest
a conqueror worm devouring souls
keep the best for last
Rings for Annie Lee
as Poe's buried alive
regretting his beloved's death in
all her many guises

These are the stories of Edgar Allan Poe
not exactly the, not exactly the boy next door
Edgar Allan Poe
not exactly the boy next door
These are the stories of Edgar Allan Poe
not exactly the boy next door
Edgar Allan Poe

This is up there with the Cranberries' "I Shot John Lennon". I challenge you to find any Dylan lyrics this dire.

― jz, Tuesday, 4 October 2005 09:30 (twenty years ago)

... which is precisely why I prefer Lou to Dylan, rock n' roll and stupidity were made for each other

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 4 October 2005 09:39 (twenty years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.