Who Made a Better Sellout: Muddy Waters vs. Howlin Wolf vs. Bo Diddley

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all three made albums in the late 60s/early 70s attempting to cash in on the psychedelic "craze" - I've long been a fan of "Electric Mud", Jaxon's copies of Bo Diddley's acid-funk albums have been in heavy rotation at my house, and I finally, after many moons, scored a vinyl copy of Howlin Wolf's long out of print and never-reissued "This is Howlin' Wolf's New Album. He Doesn't Like It. He Didn't Like His First Electric Guitar Either" and can't wait to hear it (anybody know what I'm in for...?) So this is the thread where we talk about how great old bluesmen gettin down with those crazy hippies was (other nominations outside the aforementioned troika welcomed...)

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:08 (eighteen years ago) link

I have never heard Bo's acid-funk albums. I would love copies if they are available - I'll even cede the LBC point to you.

Electric Mud is great, and the Howlin' Wolf album is amusing. I think that a greater example of their selling out was when the Wolf and Muddy did their respective "London Sessions" albums with a bunch of English rockers. Not blues at all. No.

These guys were a bit "pre-Selling-Out" if you ask me. They were in it for the money, and knew it from the get go. Shit, one of Muddy's biggest examples of his mojo was the fact that he's "Got 700 dollars/don't you mess with me."

Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Also check out Lightning Hopkins - Freeform Patterns which features the 13th Floor Elevators as his backing band IIRC.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:20 (eighteen years ago) link

I just got the compilation culled from those Bo Diddley albums, and some of it's pretty goddamn great. (Some of it's cringe-inducing, though.) Same with Electric Mud; four of its six tracks are phenomenal, as good as anything on the first two-three Funkadelic albums but with Muddy howling up top, but the other two cuts are just takin' up space. I've never heard the Howlin' Wolf album. I can't believe it's not even on CD in Japan.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:22 (eighteen years ago) link

"Lightning Hopkins - Freeform Patterns which features the 13th Floor Elevators as his backing band IIRC"

no fucking way!!! I've never heard of this record... pdf's appraisal of the Bo Diddley stuff (the Johnny Otis produced "Where It All Began", "Black Gladiator", a couple others) is pretty spot-on. There's a lot of amazing shit, then a totally unnecessary and unconvincing cover of "Bad Moon Rising" (or in Muddy's case "My Girl").

I will report back on the Howlin Wolf record when it arrives...

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Howlin' Wolf's album is a gas. Howlin' Wolf coulda done anything and it would've been good. I always preferred Chester to McKinley anyway.

I like Wolf's London sessions a lot, and I have to say that it IS blues. I mean what's not blues about it?

Lowell Fulson (then known as Lowell Fulsom) did a great psychedelic album on which he covered Paul McCartney's "Why Don't We Do It in the Road." Very good, I think it's '68 and on Kent. It's on a cassette that I need to dig out...can't recall the title right now.

I myself wish those blues guys had sold out more. The Chess esthetic is great but a bit stultifying. Or shit, can you imagine Howlin' Wolf with the Magic Band?

edd s hurt (ddduncan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:26 (eighteen years ago) link

hmm this allmusic review is not encouraging (tho I still want to hear it):

"While not as revolutionary as John Lee Hooker's sessions with Canned Heat, Freeform Patterns steers clear of the late-'60s psychedelic trappings that screwed up such similar sessions as Electric Mud. "

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Anyone care to recommend a good Howlin' Wolf starter album or comp?

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:32 (eighteen years ago) link

I guess putting the Wolf and Muddy's London sessions in the same boat is SLIGHTLY unfair, b/c the Wolf just force-of-natured his way to a decent album. Muddy's sounds to me like a bunch of people who have no idea what the space b/t the 2 and the 4 are supposed to be: space. And Muddy, who obviously knew the space belonged there.

Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:35 (eighteen years ago) link

The Chess single disc set "His Best" is excellent, and covers the basics. The Chess box set is this, expanded. Once these have been explored, I would then suggest moving on to the albums.

I'm going to go listen to some Howlin' Wolf...

Big Loud Mountain Ape (Big Loud Mountain Ape), Thursday, 21 July 2005 17:36 (eighteen years ago) link

a buddy just gave me a torn up vinyl copy of Muddy's "After The Rain" which is pretty similar to the Electric Mud album. i haven't listened to it that much.

http://blueslim.m78.com/aftertherain.jpg

The Amazing Jaxon! (jaxon), Thursday, 21 July 2005 18:39 (eighteen years ago) link

no fucking way!!! I've never heard of this record...

Don't get too excited. It's not as great as it sounds. I'll try to YSI a track later today.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 21 July 2005 18:43 (eighteen years ago) link

thx - apparently a buddy of mine has a track from it on some International Artists comp, I was gonna give that a listen before purchasin. Curious about "After the Rain" - is Cosey on it?

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 19:30 (eighteen years ago) link

i'll look when i get home tonight

The Amazing Jaxon! (jaxon), Thursday, 21 July 2005 19:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Message To The Young is probably my fave out of all of them. "If I Were A Bird" is such a great song. But I dig Bo's albums too and I really dig After The Rain.

scott seward (scott seward), Thursday, 21 July 2005 20:53 (eighteen years ago) link

i second the recommendation of HW's "his best." mind-blowing stuff, every single track. i'm not particularly into the blues, but HW rocked harder than the rolling stones some days.

would anyone be willing to tape me a copy of "this is howlin wolf's new album"?

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 21 July 2005 21:35 (eighteen years ago) link

I'll do it when I get it. I feel like I owe it to the people. I'll post to this thread once I've got it and given a listen.

Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 21 July 2005 21:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Bo Diddley's BLACK GLADIATOR is the best simply because he's more a rocker than a bluesman, so he can relate to psych and funk better than Muddy or the Wolf could. I don't get the current mania for Mud and Wolf's psychedelic records. They were forced to record those albums, and it sounds like it. Marshall Chess once said that he should have tried the psych experiments with a younger blues performer. Buddy Guy would have been just right - maybe ten years older than the average hippie, but young compared to, say, Muddy.

SURPRISINGLY GOOD EXPERIMENTAL BLUES:
- John Lee Hooker's FREE BEER & CHICKEN (1974 album with a funk band overdubbed onto some unfinished Hook tracks)
- R.L. Burnside's COME ON IN (don't ask me why - R.L. never sounded comfortable doing the techno thing, but I'll listen to this quicker than ELECTRIC MUD)

Rev. Hoodoo (Rev. Hoodoo), Friday, 22 July 2005 00:57 (eighteen years ago) link

Shakey, Cosey is on After The Rain. As is Phil Upchurch (g), Morris Jennings (d), Otis Span (p), Charles Stpney (organ), and Paul Oscher (harmonica)

i'll listen to it when the wife get's finished with dance dance revolution

The Amazing Jaxon! (jaxon), Friday, 22 July 2005 01:26 (eighteen years ago) link

"I don't get the current mania for Mud and Wolf's psychedelic records."

you can get most of them on cd now. that wasn't always the case. i think that explains renewed interest. i wouldn't call it a mania. they are highly entertaining records. especially if you like lotsa fuzz. and i know i do. i'm in it for the guitars. A Message To The Young is just a really cool Howlin' Wolf record with tons of fuzz. What's not to like? we aren't talking sonny bono and yma sumac. these guys could make entertaining records in their sleep. and sometimes they did. i like the raggedy vibe.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 22 July 2005 01:36 (eighteen years ago) link

see, now i want to hear After The Rain, and i have no idea where my copy is.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 22 July 2005 01:37 (eighteen years ago) link

I'll listen to this quicker than ELECTRIC MUD

Electric Mud is not only a great album title, it's a great album.

Paunchy Stratego (kenan), Friday, 22 July 2005 01:42 (eighteen years ago) link

SCOTT SEWARD: It sure seems like a mania for Mud and Wolf's psych records. For the longest time, those albums were viewed as shark-jumping moments, just total turds in otherwise distinguished careers. Then came the 2000's, and all of a sudden here's Chuck D talking about how Muddy Waters made hardly any sense to him until he heard ELECTRIC MUD. As for me, I think those acid-rock Mud and Wolf albums are alright as NOVELTIES, but I wouldn't call them neglected black-rock classics or anything.

(Although I will say that Muddy did a better version of "Let's Spend The Night Together" than the Stones!)

Rev. Hoodoo (Rev. Hoodoo), Friday, 22 July 2005 02:17 (eighteen years ago) link

And as far as MESSAGE TO THE YOUNG - Wolf didn't sound any more comfortable doing soul music than he did hard rock.

I still kinda like it as a goof, but not when I wanna hear some real-deal Wolf tracks, you know?

Rev. Hoodoo (Rev. Hoodoo), Friday, 22 July 2005 02:19 (eighteen years ago) link

rev, i think you're a Bluesist

i never really got into the blues, but LOVE the fuzz and the funk, so that's why i love these albums

also, that bo diddley track where he fights w/his woman is fucking G-G-GREAT

The Amazing Jaxon! (jaxon), Friday, 22 July 2005 02:36 (eighteen years ago) link

that techno burnside sounds like a novelty to me, but i dunno, i've never heard it

The Amazing Jaxon! (jaxon), Friday, 22 July 2005 02:38 (eighteen years ago) link

Hi, Jaxon: maybe I am a bluesist. I also dig the fuzz and the funk. But ELECTRIC MUD is not where I wanna go to hear all three! :-) I've heard some hellafied funky blues, and some incredible fuzztone funk, but I have very seldom heard a fuzztone blues record worth a damn.

You're right on the money - the Burnside techno album IS a novelty. But I dig it.

(Matter of fact, about 75% of the blues CD's on the Fat Possum label released since 1998 have at least a token techno track. It sounds very weird, and if the dance clubs haven't picked up on the techno blues sound by now, they never will. But the Fat Possum label WILL NOT GIVE UP...hell or high water, they're really tryin' to make this peculiar sound happen!)

Rev. Hoodoo (Rev. Hoodoo), Friday, 22 July 2005 02:53 (eighteen years ago) link

BTW: the acid-rock Lightnin' Hopkins album wasn't FREE FORM PATTERNS. It was actually THE GREAT ELECTRIC SHOW & DANCE on Jewel. I have a single or two from the album - as best as I can tell, all it is is just an out-of-place fuzz guitar dubbed on top of a basic Hopkins blues record. It would HAVE to be overdubbed, because the guitarist doesn't seem to have much chemistry with the rest of the band.

Rev. Hoodoo (Rev. Hoodoo), Friday, 22 July 2005 02:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Both the Howlin' Wolf LP & "Electric Mud" are wonderful. No idea why they made a "Mud" CD & not the other. Buddy Guy has some 'groovy' hippie blues albums, too - though I can't name 'em.

SoHoLa (SoHoLa), Friday, 22 July 2005 03:18 (eighteen years ago) link

I fell in love w/Electric Mud the minute I saw it sometime in the late 90s, when a friend handed me a copy and pointed out the Cypress Hill sample of "Tomcat" for "Ultraviolet Dreams". I've always loved this kind of sound - rolling blues beats and fuzz guitar. And the sleeve w/the booklet of Muddy getting his haircut! So great. I've been on the lookout for similar stuff ever since. CD reissues/Chuck D/Fat Possum, etc. got nothin to do with it.

"about 75% of the blues CD's on the Fat Possum label released since 1998 have at least a token techno track."

uh, this is a bit of an overstatement. there are no blues-techno tracks on any of the Fat Possum albums I own (all Jr. Kimbrough's , RL's "The Wizard", two T-Model Ford albums, Elmo Williams & Hezekiah Early LP, first Cedell Davis LP, maybe one or two others).

I think the Bo Diddley fightin-with-his-woman song is "Shut Up, Woman"...? that song's awesome. thx for the hookup Jaxon!

Shakey Mo Collier, Friday, 22 July 2005 15:17 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, "Shut Up Woman" is fucking great. And Pete Cosey just blows me away on Electric Mud; he doesn't even sound like the same guy who's playing on Agharta.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:21 (eighteen years ago) link

i put on After the Rain last night. it's pretty nice. sounds way more straight ahead blues that Electric Mud (still w/rock tendencies). "Bottom of the Sea" is such a beautiful song, i listened to it at least 3 or 4 times last night.

The Amazing Jaxon! (jaxon), Friday, 22 July 2005 16:59 (eighteen years ago) link

The John Lee Hooker / Canned Heat record, Hooker 'n' Heat, is one of the best blues albums I own, or at least the first 2 sides of it are. I can't recommend it more.

Bear Hite recorded it all live in the studio (with a lot of studio chatter kept in) on vintage equipment. They also built a platform for Hooker to sit on and miked it so that they got a great sound out of his foot-stomping. The first side is just Hooker playing electric guitar, talking, singing, and stomping. On the second side and the beginning of the third, he is backed up by Alan Wilson (the last recordings he made) on harmonica or piano. Wilson's harmonica work is amazing and powerful; it fully stands up to Hooker. They do an absolutely scorching "Burning Hell" that is probably the best single blues track I know. The last 6 tracks have the rest of Canned Heat (other than Hite) joining in, and constitute good, highly competent band boogie-music of the sort one would expect to hear at a Hooker performance. Quite good, but nowhere near as special as the first half.

Somewhat similar in feel and concept, but a few years later and not as unique, is the Johnny Winters-produced Muddy Waters Hard Again.

Vornado, Friday, 22 July 2005 18:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I heard 'free form patterns' a while back, gave it a cpl of listens so my recollection of is a bit hazy right now [and anyway I'm still finding my way round 'proper' blues] but that LP didn't sound SELL OUT to me at all so I'd like to agree with rev hoodoo though unlike him/her i've not heard 'the great electric...'. 'free form..' has those members of 13th floor elevators doing a v straight sounding backup role, no fucking around production wise or anything...

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Friday, 22 July 2005 22:47 (eighteen years ago) link

SHAKEY MO: I'm about to go to sleep, so I'll check my CD's later (don't remember offhand), but there are quite a few Fat Possum CD's with at least one dance remix. Right now, only the new album by Little Freddie King comes to mind.

Rev. Hoodoo (Rev. Hoodoo), Saturday, 23 July 2005 06:11 (eighteen years ago) link

NERRRRRRDS

Tumililingan (ex machina), Saturday, 23 July 2005 07:09 (eighteen years ago) link

got the Howlin Wolf today - listening to it now. "Evil" is smoking, all those cracklin breaks one after the other - side 2 seems a bit more energetic than side 1. pretty great!! first impression says Electric Mud is better, but that may change...

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 01:18 (eighteen years ago) link

the london sessions are awesome! they are bluesy funky! dont lisen to that guy up there!

huell howser (chaki), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 01:21 (eighteen years ago) link

Bo Diddley:

"In Philadelphia, it's worth fifty bucks."

PB, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 03:09 (eighteen years ago) link

three months pass...
i saw some great footage of bo playing in what looks like some time between 68-70 and its incendiary, hes sort of done out in hippyish garb, it looked like it could have been some kind of festival/happening. any ideas where/when it might have been? any footage of bo playing around this time?

terry lennox. (gareth), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 11:04 (eighteen years ago) link

He's in a segment of the John Lennon "Sweet Toronto" dvd. Lotsa flower childes getting down, etc. If that's not what you saw, I'm curious too.

detoxyDancer (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 15:24 (eighteen years ago) link

two months pass...
This is Howlin' Wolf's New Album. He Doesn't Like it. He didn't like his electric guitar at first either.

rapidshare.de/files/12660387/HW.zip

BOO YA@!

team jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 February 2006 19:36 (eighteen years ago) link

i am a big fan of The Black Gladiator.

Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Monday, 6 February 2006 19:46 (eighteen years ago) link

i found this record for really cheap and the back cover reminds me of Katamari. some of the same graphics and shit.

http://www.dustygroove.com/images/products/d/diddle_bo~~_whereital_101b.jpg

team jaxon (jaxon), Monday, 6 February 2006 19:59 (eighteen years ago) link

I think I gotta go with Bo. In a sense the least-mind-melting, when it works, but also the least embarrassing when it doesn't.

I heart Black Gladiator too.

Dark Horse, Monday, 6 February 2006 20:05 (eighteen years ago) link

two years pass...

Somewhat similar in feel and concept, but a few years later and not as unique, is the Johnny Winters-produced Muddy Waters Hard Again.

Not totally unique, maybe, but hard.

I was over at my dad's place this Christmas for a big family holiday-kinda thing, and there was a very nice little iPod+speaker system that a lot of the kids (um... I guess we're all grown up now) were taking turns at, and at some point when we were all good and damn drunk (woo! family!), I popped in my iPod and cranked up Hard Again. The first time I ever heard it, it was from my stepmom's vinyl collection, so I figured at least one person would dig it, and surely everyone has heard that version of "Mannish Boy," right? But I'd never listened to it considering anyone else's ears. In under ten minutes, someone turned it way down. If the music had been changed, I wouldn't have noticed much, but someone was casting judgement on Muddy and his getting all Hard. "Too much," they said.

It's not that it's too loud (though it is) or un-Christian (ho boy) or anything so patrician, not for this part of the family -- anyone would have been fine with some old AC/DC or something nice n' nasty like that. The problem, I think, is that it's too... much.

BTW: it kills on headphones. It's very well-produced. Love this record.

mose def (kenan), Monday, 12 January 2009 01:52 (fifteen years ago) link


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