The Smiths: Classic or Dud?

Anyhow, I can't stand the Smiths, save a handful of songs. It's just so....I don't know. Something for Anglophiles.

Dud. I can't 100% explain why, but dud.

Really!?! :) Sadly I'm a big Oscar Wilde fan, and it just doesn't help one bit in liking The Smiths. Oh and The Manics are next! ;) After which The Cure get a thorough look.

Morrissey's solo career has been crap, but for 4 years he was everything a pop star should be - irreverant, controversial, cutting, often wrong, sexually ambiguous and never boring. The impact of The Smiths on TOTP in 1983 is something I'll never forget, along with headlines in the SUN about 'Handsome Devil' ('A Boy in the Bush..'), and 'Shakespear's Sister' on the Oxford Road Show one wet Tuesday.

Johnny Marr's guitar playing - fucking genius. If you don't see it you have cloth ears. Or alternatively just try and play, say 'Nowhere Fast'.He could make the impossible sound easy, but never in a conventional rock and roll sense. You can tell that he had a background in funk as well as rock.

It might be a Northern thing - hailing from there myself (although I've been in London for a long time)I always enjoyed the references to Northern things, but probably it is also very much a British thing. Classic times fucking 10 anyway.

later smiths lyrics are fabulous. ("is it wrong not to always be glad?/no it's not wrong but i must add/how can someone so young sing words so sad?" is one passage that springs to mind. "frankly mr shankly" and "stop me if you think you've heard this one before" are two other great lyrics.) great wordplay, irony, and wit. earlier lyrics are hit-and-miss but i like them with the music. the voice is a matter of taste. there is a real playfulness and irony in the affected queen's-english thing (morrissey is after all a working-class manchester guy).

and johnny marr was great. if you're not into the voice i can see why you wouldn't listen to the guitars but they are subtly intricate, ethereal when they need to be, rocking when they need to be. "what she said" (another great lyric: "what she said: i smoke 'cos i'm hoping for an early death and i need to cling to something") is a great example.

and i'm canadian, albeit a self-pitying student canadian. though i suspect i'm less of an anglophile than ally (won't catch me with pulp or manics albums!).

Dr.C brings something up that I always supected, that M's wit is full of little in-jokes you'll only get if your British or even a Northener, or maybe only if you grew up in the same street as M.

Two of the finest singles of all time.

The Queen is Dead - is nearly 15 years old! was their best album and the height of their achievements for a full album, after that it was downhill.

In 1983- 87 what The Smiths were to the UK, what The Go Betweens were to Australia and what REM were to the USA. They were a high profile way out from FM rock muck of Dire Straits/Phil Collins, Men at Work/John Farnham and Chicago/ Toto/ Journey etc.

I remember some years ago, MM/David Stubbs retraced the history of MM into different phases.

Back in 1983 the editor was away on his holidays the deputy editor stood in an decided to put The Smiths on the front cover, and also REM were in the same edition - instead of going for a Kajagoogoo front cover. At the time MM was going through a pop phase covering lightweights such as Kajagoogoo, Paul Young etc. So this was a significant departure.

How many bands last only 4 years, and then have a South Bank Tribute Show on Television. (a high art show for non British readers)

How many people could appear on the TOTP with a flower hanging out of their trousers, and march around the stage in a manner we never saw before. On the positive side Morrisey did encourage individuality and the believe that you did not have to follow the crowd.

However it was probably a good idea that they called it a day then, lets be honest they had run out of ideas, if they carried on they would have been as ordinary and dull as James, could you see morrisey being produced by Eno though? Neither can I.

On the negative side did The Smiths influence anyone significant - Raymonde? The Railway Children? Bradford? The Bodines? the Chesterfields? The Shop Assistants? I rest my case, by 1986 there were many bands that were the bastard offspring / a cross breed between Lloyd Cole, The Farmers Boys, Bluebells and The Smiths. The NME was full of them, C86 scene was born and gormless bands were breeding like music inbred rabbits and it was full of shambling duds like Mighty Mighty, whose achievements would get to say number 21 on the indie charts and a session on the Janice Long show. Dull. And can we blame The Smiths for the gormless Housemartins and even the Proclaimers - who mirrored the ordinary anti fashion statement of The Smiths - or is that going to far?. How I hated the NME in 1987! nothing much has changed I still hate them in 2001!

Only 1, 000 Violins added something to the johnny marr guitars and the wit of Morrisey - and they were only minor indie chart/ Peel session favourites and now obscure band only remembered by a few. The first Bible album and June Brides are the only artists I can think of.

Also have you seen the new Mojo magazine - The Smiths on the cover! Even Mojo have left the 60s/70s.

Anyway thanks for How Soon is Now, This Charming Man - and The Queen is Dead LP, I also have Louder than Bombs on tape somewhere to. I am not obsessive about them, but release they played a significant part in music between 1983-1987.

Over-written lyrics are an interesting subject (probably good for a seperate thread) You could maybe seperate lyrics that are simply over- written (those Manics lyrics that JDB had to fit in somehow into singable lines) and lyrics that are just too thought out, too clever for their own good (too clever being of course subjective, but I can never escape the impression of Morrisey being in love with his own wit). It still isn't the complete picture for me since Stuart Murdoch's lyrics are overwritten in that way and I just lurve Belle & Sebastian (there I've said it).

One final note: Wells of course stops being funny if he zones in on one of your favorite bands. No harm done in the end since the man has such crap taste in music.

I've been through pretty much all the phases mentioned. The first time I heard them - "Panic" - is one of the most powerful memories of my entire life. After that, abject worship: they defined my adolescence. Then into getting a bit annoyed with Morrissey and liking them for the music. Then into the ex-indie eclectic bit referred to above. Then rediscovering them and settling into my current attitude, which is: not everything they did was great, but I'll love them forever nonetheless.

THE SMITHS “Panic” I can hear people shudder that this is here: after all these years and even given the current state of Johnny Marr’s sideys there’s something about the Smiths that still has an unhealthy hold over people you’d love to love. Get the facts straight though: the Smiths were about nostalgia, they were about destroying any black trace in pop, when they emerged they were pretty much a rights-for-whites insistence that nothing since punk had mattered.

“Panic” is a letter to Melody Maker spun into a song and Morrisey is a Ted-fixated pre-immigration-fantasizing Granny of a man. This laid the groundwork of morose retrospect that Lad-rock would later find it’s spiritual motivation. Blame and shame them every chance you get.

I really DON'T have a problem with the Smiths' lyrics, for all the fighting round here about "overwritten lyrics". I mean, yeah, Morrissey has written some ridiculous crap, but overall he's not a lyricist I mind. It's his overblown voice and the actual music that I hate. Someone mentioned Frankly mr. Shankley, which is a song I loathe, but not because of the lyrics, because the music is so jarringly godawful to my ears that it makes me want to murder everyone involved. It comes down to that, for me.

*yawn*

It's usually one of those sad little attention seeking things: "Hey! Aren't I opinionated! I'm such an iconoclast!".

Again, *yawn*.

Now let's throw in something interesting: surely The Smiths influence was felt most where you wouldn't really expect it. I say their true heirs are Nine Inch Nails and Korn. Discuss!

However it's clear that Kulkarni is as bigoted and stupid as those he trashes. The comments on 'Panic' make that plain enough.

Anyway, one of the greatest bands ever, definitely. And no, I am not some pasty-faced wussy who will cry when Morrissey is insulted either!

Of course, their best song is "This Night Has Opened My Eyes", but that wasn't the question. Morrissey's voice is certainly a matter of taste, as he's one of the few in the genre who consistently sings on pitch (first album aside). I find a lot of his lyrics alternately hilarious and devastating, even on songs I don't particularly like (see "Girlfriend In A Coma", which may be the most inappropriate song he ever approached outside of "Bengali In Platforms"). As A solo artist, Morrissey is a screaming failure, but as part of The Smiths he managed to create some breath-taking stuff that I'll never let go of.

Sadly, Morrissey does have a punchable face.

Where does everyone get the idea that Smiths fans have to cry when you tell them Mozzer is crap?

But yes Tim I just don't know what the big deal is about Marr...the guitars just don't really stand out, they're there and they're not. And if you really want to know: my favorite guitar players are J Mascis and Kevin Shields.

2. But Dr C is of course quite correct: Marr was (let's leave the present out of it) utterly outstanding, spellbinding and inspirational. At an extraordinarily young age he had perfect facility with the guitar: and he developed a signature sound he was unafraid to play on extensively (I mean, he played the same way on lots of records - rightly), while also pushing the envelope and trying out different things. Examples: his interest in acoustic and folk playing; his piano playing on 'Shakespeare's Sister' or 'Asleep'; his sonic wizardry on 'How Soon Is Now?' and 'That Joke Isn't Funny Anymore', which was eventually enough even to win over the really avant-garde people who are usually interested in bleeps, strange noises, textures, dripping taps, trains etc. Despite his virtuosity, though, he didn't play the Virtuoso, didn't 'go out there and go wild on six strings', as he put it to Melody Maker in 1989: he was content to be an accompanist, to play for the song and not for himself. And to talk about his *playing* this way is perhaps to understate his achievement as a *writer*, as the man who wrote, so to speak, half of one of the very greatest canons of songs in pop history.

I have made all that sound duller than it is. It's the reverse of dull: it's maybe the most exciting thing that ever happened, anywhere.

3. Funnily enough, I don't quite agree with what Dr C (?) said about the difficulty of playing Marr's songs. OK, it's pretty much impossible to play them *like he does*, but I guess that goes for any great musician. The basic structures, chords, rhythms, arpeggios, riffs, etc are not so hard to pick up.

Anyway, I read that Neil Kulkarni Cigarettes & Alcohol article, and I have a question. Is the "lads" culture that allegedly surrounds that music really *that* pervasive in the UK, or is Kulkarni just dealing in hyperbole ? If it is, then it's pretty amusing, 'cause over here, most of the people who would be aware that that music even exists would be anglophile fops and music geeks, pretty much lads' cultural opposites. I might make fun of England a lot, but I don't think I'd mind living someplace where the local equivalent of frat boys are into Pulp rather than Limp Bizkit.

"Is the "lads" culture that allegedly surrounds that music really *that* pervasive in the UK,

Five years ago it was, but less so now.

or is Kulkarni just dealing in hyperbole?"

I agree with pretty much everything he says about its malign cultural influence in the UK, but it's a soft and easy target by now. If he'd written that in 1996, though, it would have seemed much more relevant (and would have been seen in certain circles as almost blasphemous).

Kulkarni's a much-underrated writer, and his musical universe was far wider than any writers on the specialist hip-hop press (where some of the more narrow-minded indie kids would demand he fucked off to) - I remember in his euphoric review of The Brotherhood's "Elementalz" he alluded to Richard Thompson and Kevin Ayers, which might be seen as a refusal of the retro-orthodoxy of '96 and as a statement in favour of a completely different kind of "canon" (sort of what Ultramarine were working towards a few years before). That said, Tom, you're right; he has his hobby-horses and there are times when he goes too far, and I'd agree with you entirely that, if I want to hear a beat after I've been listening to The Smiths / Morrissey, I'll put on a dance or hip- hop record. I wouldn't want to hear them trying; that's not what they're there for.

Oh, and the answer to the question? Very similar to Tom's; despite everything, classic.

I understand criticism of the pretension that runs rampant through many of their songs, but the music up until _Strangeways, Here We Come_ is mostly impeccable.

Oh my, Dr.C don't say it's true :( Alas, even it were true, if something is easy to do it doens't necessarely make it less brilliant (jeez, did we go through punk for this!). Now although I've heard a lot of The Smiths, one eventually will come up with one track that I don't know on which St. Marr plays really loud.

And luckely I'm cool too in Nick's worldview, somewhere burried deep in my collection is "The Queen is Dead" (yes I really tried ;). Then again try to remember that 99.9% of the worldpopulation that don't own a stupid record by The Smiths are wankers.

Pinefox has expressed this far better than I can, and I agree with all he has said.

Kirsty MacColl fronting The Smiths is like dream level perfection. Wish it could've happened.

As close as you're gonna get: https://www.discogs.com/Kirsty-MacColl-The-Real-MacColl/release/2324631

This is a great EP.

Johnny Marr played on half a dozen tracks on Kirsty MacColl's album Kite. Brilliant stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfvVslecjwI

And he's playing on her version of You Just Haven't Earned It Yet Baby.

Forget how good Kite is. Need to get a copy as I think I only ever listened to my Dad's

non-album singles added to CD re-releases as bonus tracks don't count

― we used to get our kicks reading surfing MAGAzines (sic), Wednesday, May 23, 2018 12:59 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sure, dude

Marr is on Walking Down Madison and Children Of The Revolution on Electric Landlady too (with The The's David Palmer on drums).

Morrissey is an utter thundercunt, but it's difficult for me to imagine The Smiths without him. It would depend on the vocalist and what they could come up with over the backing tracks.

Doesn't Marr still call "Dusk" the best album he's ever played on? Definitely the best sounding!

a good bit of Kite is the core of The The's band. James Eller, David Palmer, and Johnny Marr.

Didn't The The have ABC's rhythm section for a while? That's Palmer, right, and ... ?

Also:

"Get the Message" is consistently cited as a defining track by Electronic. Allmusic picks it as a highlight of the Electronic album in a 4/5 review,[14] while bbc.co.uk states that "the excellent 'Get the Message' still holds its own alongside the best of early '90s Mancunian tunes".[15] In 2007 Johnny Marr said it was "...maybe the track I'm most proud of out of my whole career",[16] and in June 2009 reiterated that it is "the best song I've written".[17]

This is my favorite version of "Walking Down Madison," the one I heard on college radio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irgsx58SkJI

The demo is better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9JHeKyCoTw

a good bit of Kite is the core of The The's band. James Eller, David Palmer, and Johnny Marr.

Eller and Palmer are on four tracks together, Marr is on eight* overall (writing on two), they're all together on three: Free World, Mother's Ruin and Don't Come The Cowboy.

*nine for Alfred: three of the four Free World b-sides are bonus tracks on the 1989 CD

(the fourth, a Kirsty original, isn't even on the 2005 CD, which had NINE bonus tracks including remixes and demos, but is on the 2012 one, which has 17 on a second disc)

Marr is paired with Guy Pratt a bit on Kite and on Madison: good team, especially for that kind of deceptively tasteful pop.

And he's playing on her version of You Just Haven't Earned It Yet Baby.

Never realized that, but I've never owned a physical copy of the song. That really *is* about as close as it could come.

Morrissey really does lift a lot of MacColl's vocal quirks and melodic ideas, and I think she took a bit from him later on. Not really a symbiotic existence, but game recognizing game.

She didn't really cross paths with them until toward the end though, right? 1986/Bigmouth?

Yeah, she's on "Golden Lights."

And "Ask".

and those are all 1986.

Get The Message is a decent tune, but the actual song over it is pretty woeful. Awful words.. that chorus! And i mean get *what* message can i ask?

https://www.throwbacks.com/content/images/2017/06/Barney-the-Dinosaur.jpg

I have been particularly interested in Eletronic but went back to it following this thread and... I still don't really like it.
I don't hear much of Marr's greatness and input in the songs, including "Get the Message".
In a way, I find the album less interesting than it should be considering all the quality musicians/songwriters involved.
And nothing in it is better than New Order, Joy Division, the Smiths and PSB...
I guess it's just not for me !

Kirsty and Moz were great mates at the end. Heartbreaking bit in his book where he receives a postcard from her a week after she was killed, from the same holiday as.

Good old school ILM thread. Anyway, dud. Sounds like some tone deaf bar patron karaokeing over an overcompressed demo.

best English band of the 1980s no question

At this point Morrissey can go jump in a fire

xp: dude - Maiden?

Johnny Marr has gotten much better looking with time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0783yB5_V4

He was pretty in The Smiths and beautiful in The The, that’s just a bad look for him

(his wellend / LG sideburnsy looks in the early ‘00s were p hideous too

he has weird hairdos

He's a British indie guy of a certain age, of course he has weird hairdos.

Does he, particularly?

I mean ... I'd be impressed with myself if I had *hair* at "a certain age".

Marr was the ideal straight boy whom his best friend crushes on.

Has anyone read his memoir?

xp one might even say the platonic ideal.

and may even return the devotion with a hand holding or kiss or three

I listened to his memoir on audiobook, as read by ... Johnny Marr! It was totally worth it. His refusal to throw Morrissey under the bus is kind of deep. And I will never understand why people take Oasis seriously. But I highly recommend it for every other reason (and maybe even for those).

Cool! Have you also liistened to Lol Tolhust's memoir, as read by ... Lol Tolhurst?

How about Bob Dylan's memoir, as read by ... Sean Penn?

Pete Townshend reading his.

Bits where you hear he's not taking things quite as seriously as the printed word seems.

Morrissey's memoir is read by the actor David Morrissey, which I hope is a nod to Spinal Tap.

Maybe Johnny could read Andrew Marr's memoirs when they're published.

This came up this last weekend on the baseball thread and wanted to share:

joe panik

― mookieproof, Friday, May 20, 2022 7:19 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Hang the DJ.

― clemenza, Friday, May 20, 2022 9:53 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

That double pay in Game 7 of the 2014 World Series will live for infinity for us Giant fans. Good luck in life Joe.

― Bee OK, Friday, May 20, 2022 3:32 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Panik on the street's of London...

I was a pretty big Smiths fan and even saw them three times but always hated that song. Yes, they were bonkers live, an experience of a lifetime.

― Bee OK, Friday, May 20, 2022 4:24 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

this remains one of the better fielding plays i've ever seen

― mookieproof, Friday, May 20, 2022 4:27 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

That was an outstanding play, I have never seen that before. He's was a great second baseman but his bat only lasted like rwo seasons. The Giants had to move on.

― Bee OK, Friday, May 20, 2022 4:48 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

The only Smiths song I love!

― clemenza, Friday, May 20, 2022 5:54 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

(I believe he played in Toronto for six or seven minutes.)

― clemenza, Friday, May 20, 2022 5:54 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Ya they got a decent return for him too iirc - Dickerson and Cimber

― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, May 20, 2022 5:59 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

i've been watching a dickerson this year. he got yepez'd

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Friday, May 20, 2022 6:01 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

The only Smiths song I love!
Tastes, huh. To me it was the first song where it was the Smiths by the numbers. No originality to it and he is being a huge dick (with those lyrics). This was the same band that did brilliant songs like "Still Ill" and "The Queen is Dead?" No wonder they broke up, garbage.

― Bee OK, Friday, May 20, 2022 6:25 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

retire, morrissey

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Friday, May 20, 2022 6:28 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

he played about 20 miles away from me last weekend in Pasadena for two nights via Cruel World. Yes, he needs to go away.

― Bee OK, Friday, May 20, 2022 6:32 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Bottom line is that I hate "Panic" in its paint by the numbers way mostly, best thing about that song is that it only lasts two minutes.

They were lightning in a bottle. My own personal experience, they were the band that spoke most directly to me at that particular time in my life (I was 18 when the first album came out). The Morrissey/Marr tension was what really made it work, and of course was also what made it all implode. None of them, including Moz, has done anything as great since the breakup, and now Moz and his big fucking mouth have come perilously close to trashing the legacy of one of the great bands of the age.

One thing, as noted several times upthread the rhythm section did not get nearly enough love. I still remember being joyfully astonished when I saw Sinead on her first U.S. tour and they were in her band.

Recently listened to some Smiths and the bass lines have an amazing musicality that you just don't hear that often.

Was a massive fan but it's not just Morrissey having a "big fucking mouth" - many of his current opinions are abhorrent.

Oh, no doubt, but with Morrissey you're never quite sure whether he really means what he says. I remember him saying all kinds of provocative shit back in the day, although, in the current context, I suppose that's irrelevant.