― Andy, Wednesday, 6 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― chaki, Wednesday, 6 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― Andy K, Wednesday, 6 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
I remember buying my
first issue in the Summer of '74 at a newstand in Vermont when
my family was on vacation. It was their drug issue--they had a
picture of a gumball machine full of pills on the cover.
stopped reading it in the mid-80s. Too many issues with the
Police on the cover. I wonder if I missed anything?
― Arthur, Wednesday, 6 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
Your thread should bring out all the "anti-rockist" prejudice I
stirred up on the Simon Reynolds thread, unless they're still too
busy licking Mr. Reynolds wounds, that is.
It would be a terrible mistake to revive Creem. They already tried
that in the late 80s, or was it early 90s? Didn't last long and it
was easy to see why. The moment is long passed.
― J Sutcliffe, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
I was being facetious. The entire "rockist" fixation at ILM is
ludicrous in the extreme. The term is tossed around here with such
indiscriminate zeal, much like McCarthyites screaming for "communist"
blood. It's a false issue, a product of disconnected English music
paper discourse - which in turn inspired an equally reactionary anti-
British bias in the US underground. Seems to me that anyone concerned
with what is "rockist" or not is someone neurotically obsessed with
knowing what the "proper rules" are. Screw that nonsense.
I don't think ILX is particularly "rockist" obsessed so much as the word gets used fairly frequently, just as one would use other critical terms which reside in active vocabulary.
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― Sean, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― nickn, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
creem in the 70s was very extremely anti-
rockist obv, except maybe possibly for dave
marsh and — apparently — half its readers
(j*m derog*tis please quit now) (actually i
have an inexplicable soft spot for d.marsh
doubtless and quite rightly unshared by
anyone on the boards...)
― mark s, Thursday, 7 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
Gte this. Maybe 10 students out of several hundreds over the course
of the past four or five semesters ever heard of S Reynolds (still 10
too many). And they all encountered him through a lit crit seminar in
merrie olde English dept., shepherded by a transplanted limey grad
student. Apparently frustrated over his inability to attain his
boyhood dream of editing either Select or Uncut or Smash Hits, the
young man instead attempted to ply his alleged English exoticism in
foreign parts, hoping to pick up lit crit credentials and perhaps a
few large-breasted blonde Texan girls. Said Anglo-grad student soon
lost his job (and scholarship) over trifling sexual harrassment laws,
alas discovering too late that in-class arse-grabbing attempts don't
fly with the powers that be (not to mention enlightened Texan girls).
Where is he now? Either posting on ILM or getting his face slapped in
Manchester pubs, I suppose.
And you say I got no sense of humor.
Let this be the last word I ever have to say about poor old Simon
― Sterling Clover, Friday, 8 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― mark s, Friday, 8 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― Tim, Friday, 8 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
J Sutcliffe seems to find it hard to grasp that lots of us here like
Reynolds because there's not many journos writing sympathetically and
in detail about some of our favourite music: he doesn't give a shit
about UK garage, rave etc. So he just sees the philosophy stuff,
whereas what Tim and Gareth and me are getting is the dance
equivalent of someone like Lenny Kaye - mostly good taste and a skill
for spotting key tracks as they happen.
― Tom, Friday, 8 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― marek, Sunday, 10 February 2002 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link
Myonga posted a trailer for the documentary on Facebook today:
Going to guess that some of it's great and some of it--like the second Chad Smith clip (who I thought was Flea at first, and that Chad Smith was his real name...)--will make me want to hide my eyes. I don't know how puzzling it will all look today.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 17 June 2020 21:06 (ten months ago) link
I saw some of this in the middle of the night on Public Tv--guess it was this doc; there's only one, right?---and found it infotaining, with some stuff I didn't know, though I know some of the early 70s-to=late 80s writers and have most of the back issues, going back to a few in the late-'60s large tabloid format. The part I saw seemed pretty Lestercentric at times, but understanably so.Main things that ever bothered me about the mag, aside from some early treatment of workers that may or may not have been mentioned in the part I didn't see: that at least one person I know never did get paid for everything written and published, far as I know (will have to check back: this was several years in the 80s). And that Holdship and Kordosh could get poblicly righteous during this same no-pay period---which was prob beyond their control----but for instance H, denounced foreign writers for not praying in the direction of Graceland sufficiently===after which Mr. Frith stopped contributing to Letter From England---and especially, that they showered so much (no doubt commercially needed) attention on the likes of Aerosmith and Kiss, while disapproving of Prince---he got some attention and covers too, but not in a good way. Also Kordosh blamed Lennon for getting shot like 15 years after saying "We're probably bigger than Jesus, " while commenting on how secular England was, among other Creem comments. Although I admit to enjoying his bust of Asimov for evidence of senility re the book that combined Robots with Foundation.
― dow, Wednesday, 17 June 2020 21:59 (ten months ago) link
"disapproving of Prince": not so much a matter of taste in music, but intimating that there was something distasteful about him, his past, present, probably future, that he was prowling and advancing on the shady side of the street---at the same or about the same time that they were all over AeroKiss.
― dow, Wednesday, 17 June 2020 22:04 (ten months ago) link
There may have been a shorter, earlier one, I'm not sure. This one is dated 2019, so it's probably the one you saw--maybe it's about to get a wider release. (Pretend there's no pandemic...or a wider release in the fall, or winter, or whenever.)
I know there was lots and lots and lots of internal squabbling about who gets to tell this story, just like there was lots of squabbling about other matters before that. The one thing about so much rock criticism (and believe me, I include my own from 35 years ago) is that it's just not the amazing thing you might remember it as years later. (I assume the person owed money is Chuck?)
― clemenza, Wednesday, 17 June 2020 22:25 (ten months ago) link
xpost Oh well, those annoyances (not incl. stiffing writers) may have been for just a few issues. I liked Marsh's writing and editorial direction a lot in early 70s; it was either there or (I think) Rolling Stone where his reviews got me to check out Bryan Ferry's These Foolish Things and Bette Midler's The Divine Miss M: he was right, yay! Ditto early Springsteen, because operatic and Spaghetti Western tendencies if not core. (Much later, in late 80s or early 90s,a collector wrote a Letter To The Editor of Goldmine, pointing out some obvious errors of fact in one of Marsh's recent slabs, and the author responded, asking that the letter write let him know when said plebe had written a Marsh number of books, that had sold Marsh copies, and had a career of Marsh. And that seemed entirely in character by them, though hopefully not.)
― dow, Wednesday, 17 June 2020 22:26 (ten months ago) link
A wider release on TV and/or streaming would be good, maybe better commercially than trying to fill remaining art houses for such a doc, although anecdotal evidence suggests it's possible.Not gonna say who was owed without asking them if it's okay to do so, and also if this was ever resolved to their satisfaction. But was def a thing, more than several other outlets whose writers I know (also at other outlets for which these same Creem contributors also wrote---and got paid in a timely fashion[timely-enough, more or less].
― dow, Wednesday, 17 June 2020 22:35 (ten months ago) link
Appealing coverage---Mike Rubin in the Times, good for Mike!https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/03/arts/music/creem-magazine-documentary.html
― dow, Monday, 3 August 2020 19:39 (nine months ago) link
Just saw that.
― Time Will Show Leo Weiser (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 4 August 2020 17:42 (nine months ago) link
Trying to remember the last time I ran into Mike Rubin.
was it that time you had lunch at the place down by the airport ?
― budo jeru, Tuesday, 4 August 2020 19:36 (nine months ago) link
For a variety of reasons, didn't care for the documentary. I'd need to explain this more, but trying to be Creem is just doomed in 2020; I'd rather they just tell the story, which I realize is probably all but impossible with a finite amount of old footage.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 02:31 (nine months ago) link
You said it, clemenza.Lol, budo jeru, don’t think so.
― Time Will Show Leo Weiser (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 5 August 2020 02:37 (nine months ago) link
I did like the early footage of Marsh they had, from '70 or so. He's become caricatured over the years, but he seemed really interesting in those days.
Felt bad for Rick Johnson, who I know wrote funny stuff. They felt it necessary to quote his review of the first Runaways album--because it inspired a famous letter from Joan Jett--some which just doesn't hold up at all. Take the time to search out writing of his that does.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 03:05 (nine months ago) link
Yeah, I still need to get The Best of Rick Johnson, thanks for the reminder. The part of the doc I saw in that late night PBS etc. seemed pretty straightforward; they were all too old to YEEHAWW RAWKNROLL and they knew it. But I only saw maybe the last 30 minutes.
― dow, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 03:08 (nine months ago) link
I liked his "The Vocabulary of Rock": "Riff: the sound made by a very thin dog."
― dow, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 03:10 (nine months ago) link
Who is on that poster for the doc? I recognize Lester Bangs, Alice Cooper, Gene Simmons, Paul Stanley, maybe Joan Jett?, Bebe Beull?, Chad Smith or Flea?, someone that looks like Jonny Greenwood?
― henry s, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 12:47 (nine months ago) link
most of them are listed on the bottom !
― budo jeru, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:02 (nine months ago) link
Well, OK, so Wayne Kramer is bottom left, but who is Leisure Suit Guy? Jonny Greenwood Guy?
― henry s, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:08 (nine months ago) link
chad smith is in the baseball cap next to dave marsh. wayne kramer shredding on the bottom and i think the dude between paul stanley and lester bangs is supposed to be young cameron crowe. joan jett on the left, susan whitall is downing a beer top right, and the woman in the center is laura levine:
― budo jeru, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:15 (nine months ago) link
I think that might be Marsh between Stanley and Bangs. The guy next to Chad Smith seems to be too sideburny and chest hairy.
― henry s, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:26 (nine months ago) link
oh yeah you're totally right
― budo jeru, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:29 (nine months ago) link
i think it must be barry kramer
― budo jeru, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:43 (nine months ago) link
― budo jeru, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:45 (nine months ago) link
Yep, looks like it.
― henry s, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:49 (nine months ago) link
his widow is one of the executive producers, and the key in his pocket must allude to his role as "founder"
― budo jeru, Wednesday, 5 August 2020 13:50 (nine months ago) link
When Creem folded (not sure if it was after the first or second time), I know there was a nasty and prolonged legal battle over who owned the name and its legacy or whatever. It seems that Kramer's son ended up with all that eventually--the film is his project.
So one of the film's biggest weaknesses for me was how much of it was devoted to Barry Kramer. Obviously, as co-founder and publisher of the magazine, he was important--but I wonder how important he was to readers. I didn't read Creem till 1980, but there were still a lot of good and really funny writers in there: Rick Johnson, J. Kordosh, Richard Riegel, Richard C. Walls (they were very Rick-heavy), Robot A. Hull, etc. Other than Johnson, I don't think even one of them is mentioned. They were why I started reading the magazine; it wasn't Barry Kramer, whose name I may or may not have glanced at on the masthead.
― clemenza, Thursday, 6 August 2020 03:59 (nine months ago) link
Uh-oh---my TV is from the early 90s, and it can do bad things to captions and credits---but could have sworn I saw "Richard Riegel" in there somewhere---was looking for it because he's a friend---but maybe there was a re-edit for this release??
― dow, Thursday, 6 August 2020 05:42 (nine months ago) link
I may have missed him. I've met Richard once, sometime in the mid-'90s; obviously he would have looked different 15-20 years earlier. In any event, there's a lot of time spent on Barry Kramer--more even than Bangs or Marsh, probably.
― clemenza, Thursday, 6 August 2020 06:22 (nine months ago) link
My first office job was in a suburb of Detroit in the mid-80's, right across the street from Creem HQ. I had not read the magazine for several years at that point, but I still harbored a fantasy of seeing various rockers coming and going, if not Alice Cooper or Patti Smith then at least Bob Seger or Rick Nielsen. Never saw anybody. I did see Barbie Benton in the art supply place next door! I don't think she was in town on Creem business.
― henry s, Thursday, 6 August 2020 13:35 (nine months ago) link
I haven't seen the doc yet. Do they get into the latter incarnation of the magazine based out of NYC that some consider Creem in name only but was a great place for fledgling aspiring music journos, at least until they went out of business owing said fledgling aspiring music journos several thousand dollars?
― Loud guitars shit all over "Bette Davis Eyes" (NYCNative), Thursday, 6 August 2020 13:41 (nine months ago) link
I watched the doc last night. Focus is on Michigan years and the differences and fights between Lester Bangs and Dave Marsh, plus the owner Kramer with rest of staff. It acknowledges sexism issues, and the dislike that some had for Lester Bangs. Greil Marcus talks a lot in it. A handful of Creem writers do talk as well, though various ones are left out. Lots about Kramer, his wife, and his son who inherited the magazine at age 4 when his dad killed himself. I would also have liked if it had touched on some journalism business stuff like the circulation over the years, and how the ad sales department functioned while crazy madness was going on with the contributors.
― curmudgeon, Monday, 10 August 2020 18:39 (nine months ago) link
Clemenza is right that it should have had more Creem writers in it.
― curmudgeon, Monday, 10 August 2020 18:43 (nine months ago) link
1973: The one where the great Rick Johnson reviewed the reviewers in CREEM magazine via the letters section!Including... C+hristgau - R. Meltzer - Lester Bangs - Patti Smith - Nick Tosches - Robot Hull - Greg Shaw - Ed Ward - and a bunch of other biggies! pic.twitter.com/PMipPziA4M— Darren Viola (@RRepoz) August 2, 2020
― curmudgeon, Monday, 10 August 2020 18:54 (nine months ago) link
That's great--led me to ordering a copy of the Rick Johnson book, which I'd forgotten about (I'm guessing it was a little expensive when it first came out).
― clemenza, Tuesday, 11 August 2020 14:03 (nine months ago) link
"the bob seger of rock writing" :D
― mark s, Sunday, 16 August 2020 10:52 (eight months ago) link
i enjoyed it, it's written by jaan uhelszki (who was there and is a good thing): it softballs a lot of things probably and definitely doesn't talk abt the actual writing on the page enough -- i've never made a documentary so i don't know how hard it is to do this well, i've watched a ton of arts crappy documentaries about novelists so i'm guessing it's quite hard
it also blurs the timeline a little, when i think the changes in ethos and practical approach are a real thing to be grappled with: this was the magazine that defined what "rock'n'roll" was by acting it out on the page blah blah, so it needs to confront the fact that ppl were responding just to the words "rock'n'roll" very differently in 1970 (when it was assumed to include e.g. sun ra and pharoah sanders) and 1980 (when it was in some quarters simply bad and hated bcz of what it was shutting out)
the magazine as it mutated after barry kramer died and control was lost is touched on but not enthused about. they shd definitely have interviewed frith…
― mark s, Sunday, 16 August 2020 11:18 (eight months ago) link
Totally forgot Frith's "Letter from Britain"...That was for Creem and nowhere else, right?
― clemenza, Sunday, 16 August 2020 14:52 (eight months ago) link
some time later he wrote a monthly (?) mini-column for the voice: i'm not sure it had that title but that is basically the burden of its contents
(after frith quit cynthia rose also wrote a "letter from britain" kind of thing for creem iirc) (i have never held a single live copy of this magazine in my hand so my memories are extremely distanced)
a nice little serendipity is that in frith's piece for MY book, on the invaluable backstage-work of editing, he singles out susan whitall at creem, and she is alive and well and pleasingly evident in this documentary :)
tho she is not quizzed abt the tribulations of editing the gonzo boys into useable shape, which i wd definitely have asked her lol
― mark s, Sunday, 16 August 2020 15:00 (eight months ago) link
also someone shd ask ppl abt bangs purely as an editor, as it feels somewhat distinct from the derogatis lens on his work!
"line by line, bangs worked yr copy like xgau on broken-open asthma-inhaler cylinders" — robot a. hull
― mark s, Sunday, 16 August 2020 15:03 (eight months ago) link
mark s slipping in ref to his book shocka---as well he might: that's A Hidden Landscape Once a Week: The Unruly Curiosity of the UK Music Press in the 1960s-80s, in the words of those who were there, folks, got its own thread and British as Dickens but readily available for 17 bucks and change in God Bless The USA. Now to promote my previosu posts upthread: Yean Frith's Letter From Britain dispatches were great, then Holdship editorially denounced all writers, especially foreign, who got too far from roots and didn't pray sufficient number of times a day in the direction of Graceland, and then, coincidentally or not, Frith quit, but they did get some more LFB contorbutors like yeah Cynthia Rose, also Penny Valentine, Ian MacDonald (and Frith got tortured by xgau's version of the line-edit while writing his visibly depressive Voice column, as told in mark's book.)Seems like Creem did try to keep covering different kinds of music, more succesfully in the reviews section, incl. those tiny valuable rock-a-ramas, but then Spin came along, with more money and space and easier to find, even down in the boondocks, let me tell yall. Also, as mentioned in the doc, MTV, which Robbie Krieger jumped to at some point, but Spin was ahead for a while, back when indie rock could be really really indie. (ALso MTV at one point specifically said, had a guy say it on camera, that they knew about SST and shit but weren't having it.)
― dow, Sunday, 16 August 2020 15:51 (eight months ago) link
robbie krueger strangely difficult to look up under any spelling tbh -- even roberta gets hijacked by some professor of french medieval romance, but the doors guy jumps in way before that -- and also not listed on the wikipedia page, which seems rude
― mark s, Sunday, 16 August 2020 16:55 (eight months ago) link
Sorry for the name of the Doors guitarist, duhhh----she prob got that more than once----here she is:http://robertacruger.com/?page_id=2 Clippings file no longer there, but all the links I checked on the right side of the page still work---don't go back to Creem times though. Looks like she's still got a good sense of humor and inquiring mind.
― dow, Sunday, 16 August 2020 17:47 (eight months ago) link
"a journalist for more than 15 years"
i mean true but ??
(and thx for link, i too was googling her with a k)
― mark s, Sunday, 16 August 2020 17:54 (eight months ago) link
right, that's odd---think she was mainly editor at Creem, but I recall some bylines on reviews---maybe making distinction between those activities and reportage, which seems to be her main thing for this century, judging by links (written wearing covid gloves, no typos! Maybe should always wear them for typing.)
― dow, Sunday, 16 August 2020 18:11 (eight months ago) link
ah ok maybe that's a distinction she's making: "journalist for 15 years! before that? rock journalist for 30 years!"
― mark s, Sunday, 16 August 2020 18:16 (eight months ago) link
Yeah---and reminds me of a cartoon in Columbus Journalism Review: a Test Your Strength set-up with mallet and weights, like at old county fairs: the lowest, wimpiest classification was for Rock Writer. An attitude some of us picked up on over here, so maybe she doesn't want to be thought of that way, for professional reasons (ditto not wanting to be thought of as old enough to be a Creem pioneer). Think her job at early MTV, mentioned in the doc, was more to do with commercials and press releases.
― dow, Sunday, 16 August 2020 19:34 (eight months ago) link
the film spends more time highlighting the snarky humor of the magazine’s captions, headlines, and photos than focussing on the ambition and ideas of writers such as Nick Tosches, Richard Meltzer, Richard Riegel, Richard C. Walls, Robert Duncan, Bill Holdship, J. Kordosh, and Rick Johnson.
From Jim DeRogatis in New Yorker
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 18 August 2020 03:07 (eight months ago) link
Amplifying Kramer’s contributions seems to be a goal shared by Crawford and J.J., but, although the film praises him for giving his writers the freedom to make a mess on the page, it misses the opportunity to follow his transformation from an idealistic sixties hippie to an eighties capitalist.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 18 August 2020 03:15 (eight months ago) link
It's a good doc-u-scrapbook, but about two-thirds of the way through I realized I'd find it more interesting to flip through old issues of Creem rather than learn about Kramer family drama. I wish Greg Shaw was still alive because he always had an uncanny talent for distilling much of the magazine stuff down into some historical context.
― Elvis Telecom, Tuesday, 18 August 2020 07:07 (eight months ago) link
time it spends highlighting captions, headlines, and photos except as a backdrop too fast to read: maybe two lines? it's true that this is more than it spends on tosches, meltzer, riegel et al, or writing and ideas in general
kramer declares himself as a merchant early on (after reay is kicked to the kerb), crappy staff pay is raised as a routine point of friction, and as for 80s capitalist, well, he died of nitrous oxide OD in 1981 lol: the immediate exemplar of the yuppieness is apparently that the building housing the 80s creem also housed a dentist (!) and a hair salon (oh no!), plus lester's usual ornate beef abt how the world did him wrong…
it absolutely misses historical context and muddles the mid-80s (post-all-kramers) feel with the early 70s sensibility but is jim d of all ppl the man to sort this out clearheadedly? he too skips right over the ideas of tosches, meltzer, riegel et al
― mark s, Tuesday, 18 August 2020 09:23 (eight months ago) link
I had signed up for this but messed up the start time; it's on YouTube anyway.
Jaan Uhelszki and Susan Whitall are excellent. I almost wish the whole Creem documentary had been just them in conversation--they're able to talk about those years in a way that doesn't sound dated at all. (Because they don't dwell on the party; they don't ignore that part of the story, but it's not front and center.) Chuck's good too--at times it felt like he was deferential to the two women, being someone who came to the magazine much later.
The one time Whitall does sound dated to me is her contention that if you want music writing to again mean what it mean then*, people need to stop writing for free. Agree totally with Chuck's resignation: it wouldn't matter at all, they'd (whoever "they" is) just move onto the next person. You either put your thoughts out there for free--here, on Facebook, on a blog, on a year-end ballot, wherever--or you keep them to yourself. I realize some people make some money, and maybe a handful of people make more than that, but basically that ship has sailed.
*Someone will tell me I'm old and that there's music writing now that means just as much to some readers as anything written 40 or 50 years ago. I don't believe that, but it's not a view I have the energy or interest to defend.
― clemenza, Saturday, 1 May 2021 21:33 (one week ago) link
I also thought Marsh himself was part of these panels--not the two I've seen, and that's disappointing.
― clemenza, Saturday, 1 May 2021 21:34 (one week ago) link
Okay, the link doesn't work, you have to watch it right on YouTube.
Just watched the Detroit panel, which was fascinating (and John Sinclair’s cranky crustiness/crusty crankyness was on full display). These panels are meant as a tribute to Marsh, hence his non-participation thus far, but I believe he’ll be part of a later panel or two. Also, everyone on the Detroit panel — writer-activist Marsha Music, Sinclair, Wayne Kramer, writer Peter Werbe — agreed that Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels were one of the greatest bands to come out of that city (which is to say, the US), and are sadly and criminally underrated.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Saturday, 1 May 2021 22:34 (one week ago) link
I'll definitely watch some of that once it gets posted.
― clemenza, Saturday, 1 May 2021 22:35 (one week ago) link