Is this the part where Greg Kot flies the rockist flag?

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Really, I don't give much of a shit about who's rockist and who isn't, but since ILX seems pretty obsessed...

Kot talks to Bono, demands to know why U2 has sold out.


a few choice questions...

KOT: Why is the idea of associating a song with a product a good idea?

KOT: I understand that, but I've seen some of my favorite songs corrupted because of that attitude. [Iggy Pop's] "Lust for Life" is now a Jamaican vacation commercial. I don't know if I want to listen to that song anymore.

"corrupted"

What a douche.

don weiner, Monday, 23 May 2005 10:52 (twelve years ago) Permalink

KOT: It sounds like "Pop" didn't work for you because it didn't sell. To my mind, it worked because it was a good, daring album. There's no shame in not selling.

why do so many critics place such a huge value on being "daring"? "Daring" has a tendency to produce "myopia" for "shitty songs."

don weiner, Monday, 23 May 2005 10:56 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Uh, Tom Waits has said that he doesn't want his songs used for commercials in language as strong as "corrupted", is he a douche and a rockist by your definition also?

steve-k, Monday, 23 May 2005 10:59 (twelve years ago) Permalink

KOT: I understand that, but I've seen some of my favorite songs corrupted because of that attitude. [Iggy Pop's] "Lust for Life" is now a Jamaican vacation commercial.

How corrupting could it possibly be if, after five or so years of those commercials, Kot can't even pay enough attention to them to notice that they're for a cruise line, not for "a Jamaica vaction"?

(To get a little pedantic about it, it doesn't look like many of Carnival's cruises, even those going to the Caribbean, stop at Jamaica, so I sorta doubt they ever based a whole commercial around that destination.)

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 23 May 2005 11:16 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I made it through the first two pages before Bono's loathesomeness became too much to bear. Kot's silly to ask for some mythic auteur purity from U2, of course, and one might argue that what he wants from A Great Band is problematic, but Bono's answers regarding commercial use, unimagainative/conservative setlists, etc., are buckets of steaming horse shit.

Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Monday, 23 May 2005 11:21 (twelve years ago) Permalink

a) I'm not calling Kot a rockist and b) if Waits thinks his songs are somehow corrupted by commericals then yes he's a douche.

don weiner, Monday, 23 May 2005 11:32 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Greg Kot: R/D? (rockist or douche)

Mike Dixn (Mike Dixon), Monday, 23 May 2005 11:35 (twelve years ago) Permalink

There's this poverty of ambition, in terms of what rock people will do to promote their work. That's a critical issue to me. The excitement of punk rock, in the Irish and UK scene when we were coming up, was seeing our favorite band on "Top of the Pops," right next to the "enemy."

I don't question his sincerity at all, but I think it's curious that Bono is defending his bands mega-spectacle sell-out behavior in New Pop language by speaking of the "poverty of ambition" in indie rock. And he defends U2's dalliance with the iPod in practically Momusian terms -- the meeting of creative minds and all that tommyrot.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 23 May 2005 11:37 (twelve years ago) Permalink

if Waits thinks his songs are somehow corrupted by commericals then yes he's a douche

If refusing to be a shill makes you a douche, I'm on the side of the douches.

TV's Mr Noodle Vague (noodle vague), Monday, 23 May 2005 11:40 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Tom Waits in interview with The Onion:

TW: The memory that you have and the association you have with that song can be co-opted. And a lot of people are really in it for the money. Period. A lot of people don't have any control over it. I don't own the copyrights to my early tunes. So it is unfortunate, but there are a lot of people that consciously want their songs exploited in that way, which I think is demeaning. I hate it when I hear songs that I already have a connection with, used in a way that's humiliating. I mean, in the old days, if somebody was doing a commercial, you used to say, "Oh, gee, too bad, he probably needs the money." But now, it's like hocking cigarettes and underwear with rock 'n' roll. I guess that's our big export. It's like how a good butcher uses every part of the cow. I don't like hearing those Beatles songs in the commercials. It almost renders them useless. Maybe not for everyone else, but when I hear it I just think, "Oh, God, another one bites the dust."

O: I still can't hear "Good Vibrations" without thinking of Sunkist.

TW: Oh, wow, yeah. That's exactly what they want. They want to plug your head into that and change the circuitry. While you're dreaming about your connection with that song, why don't you think about soda or candy or something? It's too bad, but it's the way of the world. They love to get their meat-hooks in you.

I agree with him. And it's a great interview.

Sean M (Sean M), Monday, 23 May 2005 11:41 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I don't know, I've only ever hated pop music in ads when I dislike the song to begin with. I really don't buy into that "all you'll ever think of when you hear the song is the ad" nonsense. Speak for yourself, buddy. It's pretty easy for me to forget 99% of all the ads I've ever seen, maybe you just need to have a thicker skin. To me, "Vertigo" being played a million times as an ipod ad is no different from it being played a million times on radio or MTV.

Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 23 May 2005 11:53 (twelve years ago) Permalink

That's interesting, Matthew. For me, meanwhile, "The Times They Are A Changing" has been forever scuffed by its use in Bank of Montreal ads in the early 90s. We were so bombarded with them, and now I can't hear the tune without a heavy feeling of cynicism - there's none of the optimism that the song should have, just the sorry knowledge that even that song didn't "change".

Do you think there's a difference between how use-in-commercials affects songs, depending on if they follow a rock-authenticity-earnesty or pop-diversion-fantasy function?

Sean M (Sean M), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:04 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I'm not real big on letting my circuitry get changed. I don't think of Sunkist when I hear "Good Vibrations." I don't hear or think of cars or vacations when I hear "Lust For Life." I don't think of cars when I hear Brendan Benson or think of McDonald's when I hear the Shins. I also don't think of Nike when I hear "Revolution."

Further, my sense of a song isn't corrupted or demeaned or humiliated when I hear it in a movie, a practice that has much stronger emotional connotations than an appearance on a commercial. I can think of lots of songs that take on newer (and sometimes better) meaning simply because I hear them in a different context or making a new connection with them.

The same goes for songs that get covered by other artists--gee does Tom Waits get his panties in a wad when people cover his songs, thereby possibly changing their dream about the connection to that song because they are hearing it sung by someone other than Tom Waits? And what about listening to songs in the context of a Greatest Hits situation, where the songs are in a different sequence than the album, thereby possibly displacing a previous connection? Is Waits worried about that, too? Is it simply another form of shilling when the label releases a greatest hits or allows a tribute album to appear?

don weiner, Monday, 23 May 2005 12:08 (twelve years ago) Permalink

About the only song which has been permanently bonded to a commercial for me is "Venus In Furs", with the Dunlop ad by That Famous Ad Guy. This is because it was a really gorgeously visual ad, and worked like a video. So the lesson for songwriters selling songs to ads is to make sure said ads are rubbish. I hardly ever listened to "ViF" anyway so my circuitry feels mostly intact.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:15 (twelve years ago) Permalink

This isn't a contradiction of your statement, don, but I do think that it's a straw-man to conflate the form of 'connection' Waits criticises ("this song makes me think of the Mazda Protege") and several of the others you mention ("this song makes me think of when i lost my virginity"/"...this song makes me think of other songs by the same artist")...

Sean M (Sean M), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:16 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I seriously think that the people who get haunted by their favorite songs in movies and ads and whatever are just dealing with their own thing - they've placed some kind of importance and consequence on this sort of thing, and it lingers with them long after everyone else has forgetten about it simply because it offended their purist sensibilities and it had a scarring effect. I think you're just being a victim of your own uptightness! It's only really important if you think about it a lot. I almost never think about ads or pay very much attention to them, so they rarely make much of an impression on me. When you get all worked up about a song in an ad, you're just laying out a welcome mat for the product in your mind. If you just accept it and ignore it, it's just like hearing the song on the radio. I really like hearing that Concretes song when it comes on as an ad, but I'm not really sure what the ad is for.

Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:17 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Tom Waits just seems like a control freak!

All artists have to understand that after a certain point, if they are truly successful, their art will become part of the world and they can't really control how people experience it, if they ever could to begin with.

Matthew C Perpetua (inca), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:23 (twelve years ago) Permalink

That's exactly what they want. They want to plug your head into that and change the circuitry. While you're dreaming about your connection with that song, why don't you think about soda or candy or something?

Does this at all apply to Waits, though? If I was an advertiser and I wanted to use a song, a familiar song that I knew people lots of people liked, and were already warmly familiar with, I sure as fuck wouldn't use a Tom Waits song -- outside of "Downtown Train" (made famous via a Rod Stewart cover/normalization), how many of Waits' songs achieved the level of recognition that would make such a tactic effective?

This is all kind of the wrong issue, anyway. For one, lots of advertising (iPod and Volkswagen especially) nowadays seems to bank on an ad songs' *lack* of familiarity to a mass audience. Furthermore, I think for Waits the more immediately vexing issue about his relationship with music and ads isn't the use of his songs but the use of his singing style. His first lawsuit was with Frito-Lay over a soundalike in one commercial -- IIRC, this and a similar suit filed by Bette Midler over a car commercial helped establish a legal precedent for the notion that a singers' particular style could be treated their intellectual property. Such appropriation is probably even more harmful to an artist than the appropriation of a song. Ruining-by-assocation a single song is one thing; ruining-by-association an entire schtick or persona (especially when it's already as mannered* as Waits' is) can pre-empt an entire career -- you'll sound silly no matter what song you sing. I think of all the godawful cloying Randy Newman-isms in ads in the late-to-mid-eighties, including those Newman sang himself, as it's made even his most acid satire sound a touch cloying to these ears.

*I don't mean "mannered" in a perjorative sense, mind.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:25 (twelve years ago) Permalink

It may be a bit of a straw man, but I'm not convinced that Waits hasn't constructed one on similar grounds. He's taken an extreme position--that connections via commercials are only negative--and it seems logical to point out other uses of his work (or others) can could possibly be just as exploitative. I'm glad Waits has such strong feelings regarding his own work, but I'm not really convinced this argument works for other artists. For example, is he pissed that his music might get played at a retail store that doesn't sell his music (i.e. Urban Outfitters or Paul Smith or Ralph Lauren etc.? There is a massive movement in the music industry to find new revenue streams by placing songs and artists in new environments, and I fail to see how it is shilling or something explicitly negative.

don weiner, Monday, 23 May 2005 12:34 (twelve years ago) Permalink

why do so many critics place such a huge value on being "daring"?
Yes, critics, WHAT IS UP with this unfathomable privileging of "ideas" and "innovation"?

brianiac (briania), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:35 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I think of all the godawful cloying Randy Newman-isms in ads in the late-to-mid-eighties, including those Newman sang himself, as it's made even his most acid satire sound a touch cloying to these ears.

Now that I've used "cloying" twice, I'll rephrase it: thanks to the use of the Randy Newman meme in eighties commercials -- the dude himself recorded a commercial for Nutrasweet! -- drawling-white-boy-with-piano now sounds a bit too much to me like the voice of shilldom.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:35 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"You've offended us," he says as I weave up Lake Shore Drive during evening rush hour, trying not to crash into a concrete barrier while I reach for my notebook. "There's a dark cloud over us and we need to talk."

SEE THE OMEGA CODE

miccio (miccio), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:38 (twelve years ago) Permalink

how the fuck does daddy death affect the ability to approve ticket sales???

miccio (miccio), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:40 (twelve years ago) Permalink

These men have helped design the most beautiful object art in music culture since the electric guitar. That's the iPod. The job of art is to chase ugliness away. Everywhere we look we see ugly cars, ugly buildings . . . [he pauses, and looks out the window at the Chicago skyline]. . . . You're lucky here in Chicago on that front. But you see ugly objects in the workplace. Everywhere. And these people are making beautiful objects. Selling out is doing something you don't really want to do for money. That's what selling out is. We asked to be in the ad. We could see where rock music is, fighting for relevance next to hip-hop. And I love hip-hop. It's the new black entrepreneur. It's about being out there, loud and proud about what you're doing. Selling it on the street corner if you have to. From pent-house to pavement. Advertising the new song in another song. Taking on the world. Meanwhile, a bunch of white, middle-class kids are practicing in Daddy's garage, saying [adopts fake Midwestern whine], "No, man, that is just so un-cool." As hard as it is, as ghetto as it is, hip-hop is pop music. It's the sound of music getting out of the ghetto, while rock is looking for a ghetto. We never wanted to be a garage band. We wanted to get as quick as we could out of the garage. The people who say they like the garage usually have two or three cars parked outside. Rock music is niche. We want people who aren't in our niche listening to our music. If you pour your life into songs, you want them to be heard. It's a desire to communicate. A deep desire to communicate inspires songwriting. Rock music was most exciting when it was in the 45 [rpm single], when it was disciplined into a single. Whether it was the Sex Pistols, Clash, Buzzcocks, Nirvana, the Beatles, the Stones. The 45 is the pure rock to me. That is why I wanted to be in a band.

OMG WTF LOL HI SATAN YOU POURED YOUR LIFE INTO VERTIGO AND ALL YOU GOT WAS A LOUSY IPOD AD

miccio (miccio), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:44 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I love the unspeakable amount of vanity requried to imagine that "Vertigo" is a song that has to get out there BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.

miccio (miccio), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:46 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"OMG Enrique Iglesias and REM circa Monster have recorded a Lenny Kravitz song! THIS IS JUST LIKE PUNK '77!!! CALL APPLE!!!"

miccio (miccio), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:47 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Maybe "Vertigo" is some Halloween III death cult thing.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:49 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Finally I am glad I've seen Halloween III

Those songs do not come around easy. The melodies of most songs are A-B, A-B, and this is A-B-C-D. The construction of it is unique. And I want you to want us to have that song out on the radio. Because it's about other bands [who value songwriting] coming through. It's not just us. Rap-metal nearly put the white race in jeopardy [as a creative force]. It's a travesty. Those [rap-metal] people should just take suicide pills and go away. What we have to offer, if we're lucky, are lyrics, some interesting arrangements and beautiful melody. That's what rock music can do right now. To be relevant, to set the imagination off on a new generation coming up. Songs that up the ante.

HI BONO HAVE YOU HEARD "SOMETIMES YOU CAN'T MAKE IT ON YOUR OWN" YOUR GUITARIST EVIDENTLY DID NOT GET THE PROG MEMO

miccio (miccio), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:52 (twelve years ago) Permalink

There are some bad editing choices in Kot's piece. "Progressive" is used pejoratively by Bono ("Progressive rock was death to us in 1976"), and then used as a compliment ("You told me the other day that U2 had "Kid A'd" itself to death [a reference to Radiohead's 2000 progressive-rock album "Kid A"]). Then again, considering the sort of band Radiohead are, maybe it's intentional.

I dunno. Except for Bono's continuing inability to talk about hip-hop without being condescending, he sounds as alert, charming, and empathetic as usual (and I don't like U2). He's usually a step ahead of his interviewers, I'll say that.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:52 (twelve years ago) Permalink

He's completely full of shit!

miccio (miccio), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:54 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I love the unspeakable amount of vanity requried to imagine that "Vertigo" is a song that has to get out there BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY

I think it's pretty well tied into the vanity that it should be out there at all.

don weiner, Monday, 23 May 2005 12:55 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I don't think of Sunkist when I hear "Good Vibrations." I don't hear or think of cars or vacations when I hear "Lust For Life." I don't think of cars when I hear Brendan Benson or think of McDonald's when I hear the Shins. I also don't think of Nike when I hear "Revolution."

...but the associations are now hard-wired enough that you can name the ads the songs appeared in off the top of your head, which kinda makes Waits's point, partially anyhow.

We used to have this discussion around here every five minutes or so, it seemed. There's no question that the "Advertising bad!" position is rather unsophisticated and lets a lot drop. By the same token, though, I don't think that it's unfair or dogmatic to ask what happens to a text (a song, say) when it's deployed in a new context, and I think that to say "oh, nothing whatsoever happens, that's your fault as a listener" is disingenuous. Something does happen to a text broadly deployed. "Lust for Life" is a great example; the core of that song is drugs & casual sex, allusions which people who already got the song hear & laugh at when it's used in an ad, but it rankles me - just a little - to think that the good-time groove is all some people will ever know of that song. Iggy used the term "lust for life" in a fairly nuanced way; ads may be nuanced, but their musical components tend to be very carefully targeted. Certainly ambiguity in advertising isn't often considered a virtue, whereas in song it's a mark of craft.

A few thoughts there anyhow I guess.

Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:56 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"Rap-metal nearly put the white race in jeopardy [as a creative force]. It's a travesty. Those [rap-metal] people should just take suicide pills and go away."

Whoa!

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 23 May 2005 12:57 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Avoid any critic who insists on using phrases like "break out of the box," "out on a limb with saw in hand," and "pushing things" in every other question.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:10 (twelve years ago) Permalink

ahh, rap-metal, such a pressing issue here in these heady days of 1998

Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:12 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"Rap-metal nearly put the white race in jeopardy [as a creative force]."

I'd like to replace "rap-metal" with "U2's post-Pop output", plz.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:14 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I'd also like to replace that "white race in jeopardy" malarkey for "FOR FUCK'S SAKE".

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:15 (twelve years ago) Permalink

And, no, I haven't read the article, but I would LOVE to see the context that saves that whoa-nellie assertion from being any less noxious.

David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:16 (twelve years ago) Permalink

** And I want you to want us to have that song out on the radio. **

And I need you to need me, Bono.

m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:27 (twelve years ago) Permalink

sum up

Greg Kot: "hey yeah you stood for all these watered down post-punk values and now you've betrayed them all and it sucks."

Bono: "Ah what you don't realize is that we are reinventing the wheel. The black race is greedy too, but we represent the white race. It's not our politics that changed the world, its actually our outstanding song writing and our lovely faces. It's not about the message, its about the medium. It's hard to make a living these days, what with being a rock star all of my adult life. Oh, the things we do for money. But we do them because we have a message. That Apple is cool looking. Did you know my dad died? KNEEL BEFORE ME, SON OF JOR-EL! KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!"

miccio (miccio), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:27 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"P.S. I gave to UNICEF this year so I am above all criticism."

miccio (miccio), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:29 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Dear god, that's like a competition to see who can spout off in the most noxiously self-important manner!!

That's a really important point that I want to get across to you. There's this poverty of ambition, in terms of what rock people will do to promote their work. That's a critical issue to me. The excitement of punk rock, in the Irish and UK scene when we were coming up, was seeing our favorite band on "Top of the Pops," right next to the "enemy." That would be exciting. We did talk shows, TV shows, back then. The great moments of rock 'n' roll were never off in some corner of the music world, in a self-constructed ghetto. I don't like that kind of thinking. I know some of it exists, and some of our best friends are part of it. It's not for me. Progressive rock was the enemy in 1976. And it still is. And it has many, many faces. This beast is lurking everywhere. It can describe itself as indie rock. It's the same [blanking] thing. It's misery. I have seen so many great minds struck down by it. . . . When you suggest we're betraying ourselves by doing TV shows and promotional stuff, to me the Super Bowl was our Ed Sullivan moment. It just came 25 years later. I didn't expect it. But it is one of the moments I'm most proud of in my life.

Dear Bono, plz fuck off and die forever xoxox

Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:29 (twelve years ago) Permalink

And I love hip-hop. It's the new black entrepreneur. It's about being out there, loud and proud about what you're doing. Selling it on the street corner if you have to. From pent-house to pavement.

rollin' with heaven 17 in this bitch.

N)RQ, Monday, 23 May 2005 13:31 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I dont see how Kot is being rockist. I both agree and disagree with him, but I dont see rockism in his critique at all. I mean, maybe he just finds commercial associations annoying. I do sometimes, and other times I dont.

deej., Monday, 23 May 2005 13:32 (twelve years ago) Permalink

So, is the iPod the greatest invention since the electric guitar?

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:33 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I would imagine that humor is what saves the 'white race' comment, myself.

Anyway, I thought they both did pretty okay. I think U2's big sellout maneuvers lately have been irritating--mostly the ones that have to do with these recent back-to-basics records--but I also think, having seen U2 in concert, that the whole 'this song is only good if it's HUGE' thing is kind of true. The hugeness of their show is amazing. They are one of the only bands in the world that can sell out months worth of stadiums in countries on every continent, and that fact that in a good U2 show every one of the tens of thousands of people there knows the words and sings along to 'all i want is you' makes the show an amazing experience. and U2 do this while writing songs that are, IMO, good!

i have to say: if you're going to be all anti-rockist or whatever, you can't then hold bono to your puritan principles of proper rockstar behavior, whatever they may be.

mrjosh (mrjosh), Monday, 23 May 2005 13:53 (twelve years ago) Permalink

it's rockist to hate the use of songs in ads out of a half-arsed "anti-commercialism", but it's fair nuff to hate it when through overexposure and bad associations a song you love becomes played out and connected with, like, low-rate mortgages or bottled water.

N)RQ, Monday, 23 May 2005 13:57 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I don't even like U2 that much cept for "Achtung Baby" and most of "Zoorpa," but I sorta agree with a remark Peter Buck made around the time of the Zoo TV tour: something about "If there had to be such a thing as the biggest band in the world, I'd rather it was U2 instead of Bon Jovi."

(of course, now I know there's no difference between "Runaway" or "Livin' On A Prayer" and "Mysterious Ways" or "Two Hearts Beat As One." But Larry Mullen Jr sure is foxier than Tico Torres)

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 23 May 2005 14:00 (twelve years ago) Permalink

it's rockist to hate the use of songs in ads out of a half-arsed "anti-commercialism", but it's fair nuff to hate it when through overexposure and bad associations a song you love becomes played out and connected with, like, low-rate mortgages or bottled water.

But I don't get how it's half-arsed. Haven't you read your Frankfurt School? CAPITALISM IS THE ENEMY. The Man is real and he is assimilating U2! The whole point is that Bono's 'hugeness' ambition is also awesome, and unfortunately the two principles are in conflict. That's part of what makes watching U2 fun--esp. around the time of "Achtung Baby" and "Pop."

mrjosh (mrjosh), Monday, 23 May 2005 14:05 (twelve years ago) Permalink

the frankfurt were very good at dressing up hatred for popular cultural forms as hatred for capitalism, which they never rerally analysed. if you don't like the use of songs in ads because it's commercial, at the very least you need to rearrange your priorities as a revolutionary.

N_RQ, Monday, 23 May 2005 14:13 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"Rap-metal nearly put the white race in jeopardy [as a creative force]."

The Nazis had their death camps to wipe out races. We've got Limp Bizcuit and Korn. :(

Cunga (Cunga), Monday, 23 May 2005 20:44 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Tennant? A ROCKIST!? He-LLO! Do you own a ncopy of "Discography," roger?
-- Alfred Soto (sotoal...), May 23rd, 2005

I admit that it's perverse, but as they say it's there in the text.

The first quoted paragraph (which is where I read some envy over U2 pandering in just the broadest possible way to the Landau Nation and being celebrated for it while serious artists like the Pet Shop Boys, who wouldn't be caught dead doing anything as obvious as making a pilgrimage to Graceland, were treated as bubblegum, no matter how many hits they had) is razor-sharp.

The second paragraph... not so much. You can't decry artifice without implititly valorizing authenticity. Though I happily concede that NT is well aware of the irony in holding up the Pet Shop Boys as champions of the authentic.

Not that it's any of your business, but Discography did indeed replace various cassette recordings at some point (I think when I got a car w/out a cassette player - I can't drive in LA without "Left To My Own Devices")

rogermexico (rogermexico), Monday, 23 May 2005 20:48 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I think we can agree that Tennant is an abler practitioner of Wildean paradox than Bono.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 23 May 2005 20:50 (twelve years ago) Permalink

B-b-but Bono said "I can't live with or without you"!

TV's Mr Noodle Vague (noodle vague), Monday, 23 May 2005 20:54 (twelve years ago) Permalink

http://img168.echo.cx/img168/3418/u21jl.jpg

Cunga (Cunga), Monday, 23 May 2005 20:59 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I think we can agree that Andrew WK is an abler practitioner of Wildean paradox than Bono.

That said, Tennant is much more fun. Is this threadjacking complete Beware of Alfred Soto bearing most excellent quotes.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Monday, 23 May 2005 21:01 (twelve years ago) Permalink

xpost

OM,er,G.

Bathe it and bring it to me.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Monday, 23 May 2005 21:06 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Can someone quote me something Kot said that is explicitly rockist?

deej., Monday, 23 May 2005 21:13 (twelve years ago) Permalink

(xpost)

haha. Tennant's got loads of great lines. I'm surprised U2 never covered "Opportunities" back when they were being ironic and coming out of lemons.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 23 May 2005 21:15 (twelve years ago) Permalink

b/c Larry's got the looks?

rogermexico (rogermexico), Monday, 23 May 2005 21:19 (twelve years ago) Permalink

For eff's sake, Bono - "hip hop is the NEW BLACK ENTREPENEUR"?????? OK, so extemporaneous speaking is tough and all, but COME ON.

David R. (popshots75`), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 14:38 (twelve years ago) Permalink

(xpost)

and Larry's got the brains too.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 14:42 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Selling Out: Classic or Dud?

The Mad Puffin, Wednesday, 25 May 2005 14:48 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Going back - what the hell was Bono talking about progressive rock? And how come he demonized it and then said Vertigo was great because it wasn't retro at all - it was "progressive!"

He's dead on about indie rock though.

God am I tired. No seriously, am I?, Wednesday, 25 May 2005 15:39 (twelve years ago) Permalink

O: I still can't hear "Good Vibrations" without thinking of Sunkist.
TW: Oh, wow, yeah. That's exactly what they want. They want to plug your head into that and change the circuitry. While you're dreaming about your connection with that song, why don't you think about soda or candy or something?

Well, sometimes it also works against a product to use a certain song in an advert. Example: There's currently a very silly commercial for canned coffee. In it a kid in a suit named "Hank" is going to work, and everywhere he goes he has his own pep squad cheering him on...
...to the tune of "Rock and Roll, Part 2"
Which unfortunately keeps reminding me of Gary Glitter's whiny, halfhearted "apology" for "doing that thing that [he] went to prison for"
So, instead of seeing the advert and thinking about a cool refreshing caffinated drink...I instead flash onto a mental image of a creepy perv with a bad haircut fumbling though a bad press conference before running to his car to take his one way trip to Cuba.

Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 16:24 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I don't hear or think of cars or vacations when I hear "Lust For Life."
But if take a cruise with these people they're better be liquor, drugs and a sex machine. I mean, shit, isn't that what the advert secretly implies?

Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 16:30 (twelve years ago) Permalink

xpost

and Larry's got the brains too.

True - he's the one who stays out of the papers. And he's made lots and lots of money.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 17:06 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Boy George admitted that when he saw U2 live doing "I Still haven't Found What I'm Looking For," he wanted to scream at Bono, "Turn around! He's sitting right behind you!"

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 17:19 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by progressive rock, starving hysterical rockist, dragging themselves through the canon at dawn looking for an engraved iPod...

Keith C (kcraw916), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 18:56 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"rockist"

Everytime I read that word, I have the sudden compulsion to say something like:

"Shut up you fucking self-important pretentious loser."

But I never would, that's rude.

But no matter what you think of Bono or what he's said or done, I tend to agree somewhat when he says that the iPod is the "most beautiful object art" in music culture since the electric guitar. Agree?

PB, Wednesday, 25 May 2005 20:34 (twelve years ago) Permalink

WRONG

http://www.yenra.com/george-foreman-grill/foreman-grill.jpg

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 20:53 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Everytime I read that word, I have the sudden compulsion to say something like:

"Shut up you fucking self-important pretentious loser."

This is the kind of intelligent debate we need more of.

TV's Mr Noodle Vague (noodle vague), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:09 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I MADE A ROCKIST FLAG IN PHOTOSHOP!

[IMG]http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=481559[/IMG]

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:13 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"You Use Pro Tools (You're Gay)"

Must...stop...listening...to...Anal...Cunt...

TV's Mr Noodle Vague (noodle vague), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:16 (twelve years ago) Permalink

People who hate ProTools are pro tools.

jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:16 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Miccio completely OTM on the GF tip.

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:18 (twelve years ago) Permalink

The Foreman is the best invention ever made for veggie burgers/fake meat ever..

anyway...

GRRRR PRO TOOL BUTT PIRATES AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR!

donut debonair (donut), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:19 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I really can't say enough good things about the Foreman grill. My mom got me one for Xmas a few years ago and I thought I'd never use it, but I use it all the time. KNOCK OUT THE FAT!

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:24 (twelve years ago) Permalink

The thing is, all the flavour's in the fat. Really dry burgers taste weird.

TV's Mr Noodle Vague (noodle vague), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:26 (twelve years ago) Permalink

oh wait PB said "music culture" I missed that.

anyhow, WRONG

http://killingmylobster.com/albums/goooaal/keytar_mark_yess_copy.jpg

miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:26 (twelve years ago) Permalink

It's about time there was a Death Metal band with an all keytar line-up.

TV's Mr Noodle Vague (noodle vague), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:27 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Everytime I read that word, I have the sudden compulsion to say something like:
"Shut up you fucking self-important pretentious loser."

This is the kind of intelligent debate we need more of.

"Intelligent debate" is the last thing we need. It's fucking music. Get over your own alleged importance.

PB, Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:31 (twelve years ago) Permalink

The thing is, all the flavour's in the fat. Really dry burgers taste weird

I've long switched over to extra lean ground beef, but I find a little worscetshire (sp?) sauce and garlic powder mixed in with the beef makes for a tasty burger!

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:35 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"Intelligent debate" is the last thing we need. It's fucking music. Get over your own alleged importance.

U2 might be a lot of things, but it's not Fucking music.

TV's Mr Noodle Vague (noodle vague), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:42 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"Intelligent debate" is the last thing we need. It's fucking music. Get over your own alleged importance.

You are such a load.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:43 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Also:

http://www.videohelp.com/forum/images/guides/p1057837/tnt.jpg

One's in the MoMA's permanent collection, if you think I'm being a cheese-hound.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:54 (twelve years ago) Permalink

that's beautiful!

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 21:57 (twelve years ago) Permalink

calling the iPOD the "most beautiful product since the electric guitar" (or whatever) = drinking the Kool Aid.

as an "indie rock" musician I gotta say Bono's actually kinda right - I *do* prefer my music to be in "a ghetto", because I don't see any virtue in being willfully absorbed into the larger marketplace. just let me have my little corner over here where no one's looking and I can do whatever I want....

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 25 May 2005 22:00 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"Intelligent debate" is the last thing we need. It's fucking music. Get over your own alleged importance.

Anyway, since when was this thread about music? I thought it was:

TS: Bloated Rock Hax0rz Who Should Have Retired A Decade Ago And Would Have If Not For The Opportunity To Do Good In The World That Comes With Money And Fame But Somehow Come Off As Even Bigger Douches Than If They Just Did It For The Money vs. Music-Writer-Slash-Consumer-Advocates Who Position Themselves As The Temple Guardians Of Teh Realness

Meanwhile, I can't believe George Foreman allowed his name on a kitchen gadget. Sellout/Douche.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 22:00 (twelve years ago) Permalink

How on Earth can a professional boxer be a "sellout"? Don't h8 on G-man! His grillz r grate!

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 22:02 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Talking about grills is the last thing we need. It's fucking cooking.

TV's Mr Noodle Vague (noodle vague), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 22:06 (twelve years ago) Permalink

How on Earth can a professional boxer be a "sellout"?

I kiss you M@tt. There's the thread in a nutshell.

Off now to check the going rate to have "GoldenPalace.com" tattooed on Iggy Pop's back.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 22:23 (twelve years ago) Permalink

x-post the George Foreman grill is useful, but is such a bitch to clean that I dread using it.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Wednesday, 25 May 2005 22:49 (twelve years ago) Permalink

The new ones they came out with in 2003 are all coated with nonstick, teflony goodness. Cleans up beautifully with a washrag instead of a scrubby sponge.

Now, that I've shilled... where's my money?

Lord Custos Omicron (Lord Custos Omicron), Thursday, 26 May 2005 02:41 (twelve years ago) Permalink

twelve years pass...

BONO: That's a really important point that I want to get across to you. There's this poverty of ambition, in terms of what rock people will do to promote their work. That's a critical issue to me.

The excitement of punk rock, in the Irish and UK scene when we were coming up, was seeing our favorite band on "Top of the Pops," right next to the "enemy." That would be exciting. We did talk shows, TV shows, back then. The great moments of rock 'n' roll were never off in some corner of the music world, in a self-constructed ghetto. I don't like that kind of thinking. I know some of it exists, and some of our best friends are part of it. It's not for me.

Progressive rock was the enemy in 1976. And it still is. And it has many, many faces. This beast is lurking everywhere. It can describe itself as indie rock. It's the same [blanking] thing. It's misery. I have seen so many great minds struck down by it.

starving street dogs of punk rock (Odysseus), Saturday, 5 August 2017 17:24 (two weeks ago) Permalink

Lol is that a recent quote?

flappy bird, Sunday, 6 August 2017 20:33 (two weeks ago) Permalink

no, from the article upthread

starving street dogs of punk rock (Odysseus), Sunday, 6 August 2017 20:43 (two weeks ago) Permalink


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