"I'm sure you do, as long as they're eating fried chicken and watermelon."
That's not just beneath you, it's beneath this whole damn board.
― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:15 (seventeen years ago) link
― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:15 (seventeen years ago) link
― M@tt He1geson: Sassy and I Don't Care Who Knows It (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:16 (seventeen years ago) link
― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:17 (seventeen years ago) link
― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:18 (seventeen years ago) link
― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:19 (seventeen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:22 (seventeen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:23 (seventeen years ago) link
just curious then, why is Trapped In The Closet trumpeted for its comic genius and not Soul Plane? I assume you think both are minstrel shows.
― da croupier (da croupier), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:33 (seventeen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:36 (seventeen years ago) link
― da croupier (da croupier), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:37 (seventeen years ago) link
― The Reverend Rodney J. Greene (R. J. Greene), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 22:45 (seventeen years ago) link
― deej.. (deej..), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 23:05 (seventeen years ago) link
― m@p (plosive), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 23:11 (seventeen years ago) link
Also, shouldn't blame for any irono-condescening white people TITC luv be placed at the feet of the irono-condescending white people, rather than R. Kelly?
― The Reverend Rodney J. Greene (R. J. Greene), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 23:48 (seventeen years ago) link
I'm not blaming R Kelly and I don't know that Dan neccessarily is either (or at any rate, that Dan is blaming R Kelly MORE than the white people who propagate that shit) but I'm not going to answer for him.
― deej.. (deej..), Wednesday, 10 January 2007 23:53 (seventeen years ago) link
That's it exactly. I hate the way the phrase "minstrel show” is being casually thrown around.
I don't see any intentional mockery of blackness in TITC. It's buffoonish, sure, and people are definitely responding to that. But it's also really fucking bizarre in a way that has nothing to do with race.
Maybe some white people ARE getting crypto-racist laffs out of it. I dunno. But that doesn't make it a damn minstrel show.
It isn't fair to bring that kind of language into it.
― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Thursday, 11 January 2007 00:04 (seventeen years ago) link
― deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 11 January 2007 00:07 (seventeen years ago) link
― deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 11 January 2007 00:08 (seventeen years ago) link
I thought that was yr. point above.
Anyway, "minstrel show" really is similar to "Hitler", as Cheesesteak deliciously pointed out above. It's too loaded to be useful in a debate. It distorts and unbalances things.
― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Thursday, 11 January 2007 00:39 (seventeen years ago) link
There's something sticky in here that I can't quite parse (no sarcasm).
― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Thursday, 11 January 2007 00:51 (seventeen years ago) link
Deej, I realize that was a gut reaction on Dan's part, but there's no reason why the convictions behind that impulse shouldn't be explored.
(xpost)
― The Reverend Rodney J. Greene (R. J. Greene), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:00 (seventeen years ago) link
Calling these videos a minstrel show implies that there is something shameful about them....at your own self-revealing risk
― deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:00 (seventeen years ago) link
― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:06 (seventeen years ago) link
― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:07 (seventeen years ago) link
As long as we're talking about this, I'm amazed that the Blowfly thread escaped this kind of breakdown. His cachet among white folks seems WAAAAAY more suspicious to me...
― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:09 (seventeen years ago) link
This is silly. Everyone gets so defensive when someone mentions that word. Its like, 'must...find...non...racist...footing.' "I'm not a racist, thats whats so insane about this." etc
I don't see why the audience's reaction isn't a legitimate part of a critique of an artist/piece of art. They're not seperate - or rather, they're not seperate when you're talking 'minstrelsy'. I can't really argue Dan's perspective because he didn't elucidate much beyond it but to me its entirely reasonable to be critical of R Kelly or the song because of the way that song is received. And incidently, "minstrel show" is about calling on a certain tradition that is tied in with racism. So its a pretty broad descriptor and people seem to respond to what they ASSUME he's saying. Welcome to america etc
Still, at this pt. TITC is bad and boring.
― deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:10 (seventeen years ago) link
One of the things said upthread was that people are pointing and laughing, saying Kelly is being 'unintentionally funny', and that this too is patronising. Neither my friends nor I know whether he knows what he's doing, but we debate it, and I really don't think that the people who claim it to be accidental are undermining the man whatsoever (whether he deserves to be undermined personally is a different issue).
Essentially, I may be missing something as a Britisher - some of the arguments seem to have revolved around US issues that I have no conception of - but the point is that this production is just great; the music works, the plot is hilarious and engaging, and I can't see one reason for people to not like it.
― emil.y (emil.y), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:16 (seventeen years ago) link
Exit, stage left...
― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Thursday, 11 January 2007 01:19 (seventeen years ago) link
― Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 11 January 2007 02:30 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 11 January 2007 09:39 (seventeen years ago) link
― is anyone anticipating the new Baaderonixx? (baaderonixx), Thursday, 11 January 2007 09:51 (seventeen years ago) link
― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Thursday, 11 January 2007 13:00 (seventeen years ago) link
I called it a minstrel show because, in my opinion, the entire thing is playing up to and pandering to a particular image that can be encapsulated by the sentence "R. Kelly is one crazy nigga!" As I said earlier, you can go ahead and watch that if you want to but, personally, I think it's some bullshit that cannot be divorced from some extremely ugly racial overtones.
FIN
― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Thursday, 11 January 2007 13:19 (seventeen years ago) link
pandering to a particular image that can be encapsulated by the sentence "R. Kelly is one crazy nigga!"
Yeah maybe. Hard to say. I'm drawn to R. Kelly because he seems to combine a very successful craftmanship, churning out strings of brilliant singles, as well as a sense of experimentation quite different from what's expected in the genre he's working in. I loved R. Kelly before TITC and I probably don't need to hear it again, but I still think it's pretty cool of him to try out stuff like that (and that he dresses up as Zorro for award shows).
― is anyone anticipating the new Baaderonixx? (baaderonixx), Thursday, 11 January 2007 13:46 (seventeen years ago) link
― EZ Snappin (EZSnappin), Thursday, 11 January 2007 14:18 (seventeen years ago) link
― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Thursday, 11 January 2007 14:21 (seventeen years ago) link
x-post; and yes, I think that's part of the thing too. TITC does seem extraordinarily dumb, and the audaciousness of it's dumbness is what made me revive the thread. There's a midget in a cupboard having an affair with a policeman's wife?!
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 11 January 2007 14:25 (seventeen years ago) link
― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Thursday, 11 January 2007 14:26 (seventeen years ago) link
Yes. And it's no big deal.
Plus, R. Kelly genuinely does seem to be one crazy ... ummm, R&B celebrity. This makes his "I'm so craaaaaazy!" schtick a lot easier to swallow.
― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:06 (seventeen years ago) link
― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:07 (seventeen years ago) link
― the original hauntology blogging crew (Enrique), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:08 (seventeen years ago) link
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:10 (seventeen years ago) link
Who is Adam Beales?
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:13 (seventeen years ago) link
― is anyone anticipating the new Baaderonixx? (baaderonixx), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:14 (seventeen years ago) link
Hearing that in my head a la Mike Jones is not helping my sanity.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:15 (seventeen years ago) link
R. Kelly is obviously at least kinda/sorta crazy --the craziness being obvious for the reasons Mr. Sick Mouthy mentions above, among others. And his material is (again, obviously) rooted in a frankly stereotypical vision of black culture and the entertainer's role in that culture. Oh, and he's black. Am I allowed to admit that I noticed that?
So what? The appeal to his work as a whole is the craftsmanship, the pop genius, the genuine humor, the controversy, the lunacy and (yes, to some extent) the total obliviousness. It's universal.
― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:31 (seventeen years ago) link
― Adam Beales (Pye Poudre), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:34 (seventeen years ago) link
― deej.. (deej..), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:45 (seventeen years ago) link
http://pajamasmedia.com/images/2006/02/Fingerpoint.jpg
― The Android Cat (Dan Perry), Thursday, 11 January 2007 15:46 (seventeen years ago) link