Emerson Lake & Palmer Electronic Pioneers????

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So my asshole friend is trying to convince me that Emerson Lake & Palmer were pioneers to whom current electronic producers owe a great debt of gratitude. Is this the stupidest thing anyone has ever said, or am I just completely in the dark about EL&P????

DaveQ (daveq), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:20 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

get one tarkus

roxymuzak (roxymuzak), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:23 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

It's up there in the Premiership of stupid.

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:25 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Well, the drum sounds on Carl Palmer's piece on Brain Salad Surgery are pretty bitchin'.

Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:26 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

when did the first ELP record come out? 1971 right? and did "Lucky Man" actually make the charts? cuz if so that's gotta be one of the earliest, most prominent placements of a wigged out synthesizer solo on a pop record. that I can think of right now, anyway.

Stormy Davis (diamond), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:27 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Yeah, some other joker was trying to convince me of this once. He said he bought some ELP records at a garage sale and suddenly I owe them props for forging EDM. Please.

Flash (cowboytrance), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:27 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

AMG sez 1st LP was 1970. "Lucky Man" reached #48 pop US.

Stormy Davis (diamond), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:29 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Those 60s Lounge Muzak keyboard demo albums have had more influence than ELP.

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:30 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

We all "owe a great debt of gratitude" to ELP.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:33 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

"Welcome Back My Friends to the Show That Never Ends" is, indeed, streamlined and innovative when compared to Sleep's "Dopesmoker." Lemmy as a roady, it is said, procured the knife Keith Emerson used to assault his organ every night. First to use H.R. Giger (maybe the only) as an illustrator for a platinum-selling album.

George Smith, Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:33 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Tim, don't you have more to say about the mighty ELP ... ?

Stormy Davis (diamond), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:35 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

that's gotta be one of the earliest, most prominent placements of a wigged out synthesizer solo on a pop record

but everyone from the who to billy joel was mucking about with wigged out synths in the early '70s. that was the hot new thing.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:35 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I quite like the instrumental stuff on their early LPs. Greg's Lake's ballads not so much.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:36 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Keith Emerson developed the Teslatron, a monophohic synthesizer velocity-controlled by a Jacob's Ladder.

George Smith, Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:37 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

don't make me quote from my back issues of "Rock Mag"!

Stormy Davis (diamond), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:37 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I like ELP lots, but the way they used synths seemed basically traditional, i.e. just treating them as organs with a few new sounds. So not much influence on current electronic producers, rilly.

Also, Taking Sides: Keith in ELP vs Keith in The Nice. I reckon he was better when he was young and hungry.

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:42 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Stormy is referring to an article I wrote approx. nine years ago about how ELP's early instrumental music was aggressive and futuristic with fairly random musical materials. I was comparing it to no wave music.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:50 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Yeah! Great article!! I loved it. That's why I was goading you into talking more! Sorry if i was bugging you.

Stormy Davis (diamond), Thursday, 24 February 2005 22:54 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Thanks! Not bothering me at all. It's actually online here (though, if I recall correctly, the fine folk(s) who re-typed it up made teh gnarly typos).

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 23:03 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I'M THE "IDIOT FRIEND"
and my point, before dave q so quickly jumped me, is that the mere fact that they used synths at the time they did is a piece of the puzzle. Listen to the way they were used. Dave's point, that he didn't put in, was that Kraftwerk is owed the most, and that they were recording at the same time. Which is not true. ELP's first stuff came out in 71 or thereabouts. Of course, I'd never argue that Kraftwerk has a more logical influence, but come on. ELP having zero is absurd. Fact Checking Cuz's point is well taken, but bands like ELP were earlier. I'm just looking at steps. Negro Spirituals become blues, blues becomes rock and roll, etc...... Not to mention the fact that I am the master of hyperbole and I know that it pisses dave q off to say stuff like that!
J

jodi terwilliger, Thursday, 24 February 2005 23:03 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

also, saying that they're not a logical piece of the puzzle is just like discounting what Brian Eno and Bowie were doing when they "twisted the knobs and were more intrigued by the mistakes it made than doing what it was supposed to do"

jodi terwilliger, Thursday, 24 February 2005 23:05 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

(Actually, it doesn't look so bad. May I just say that TR and Fuzz-O are the coolest for reprinting that!)

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 24 February 2005 23:09 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

'Influence'---bah.

Joe (Joe), Friday, 25 February 2005 01:01 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

considering that kraftwerk, gary numan, human league, and OMD all hated ELP, then yeah i guess that they were an "influence" (as in something the aforementioned did NOT want to sound like!)

Eisbär (llamasfur), Friday, 25 February 2005 02:14 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

http://www.a-cd.de/detail.php?id=6342&ns=1

Pangolino again, Friday, 25 February 2005 02:34 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

This is second-hand and I (thankfully) can't retrace the 'logic', but my friend knew someone who blamed the popularity of dance music ('disco') in the late '70s to ELP's covering _Pictures at an Exhibition_ earlier in the decade.

Jeff Wright (JeffW1858), Friday, 25 February 2005 02:45 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

considering that kraftwerk, gary numan, human league, and OMD all hated ELP, then yeah i guess that they were an "influence" (as in something the aforementioned did NOT want to sound like!)

The majority of Human League - basically everyone but Oakey,I think - were acknowledged big Prog heads (King Crimson in particular) so I don't think their use of synths was without that Prog taint, influencewise. Anyway, isn't the whole myth of the PostPunk/Punk acts hating Prog Rock pretty much discounted by now? There have been so many interviews in recent years where the likes of Human League and others i'm too tired to recall have stated that they listened to loads of Prog in their day and LIKED it. Not to mention a bunch of House pioneers in the States. And just listen to Italo. It's not all about Moroder/Kraftwerk. There's plenty of clues pointing to Prog there, also. egads!

Jay Vee (Manon_70), Friday, 25 February 2005 09:30 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Liking a bit of prog rock when you were a lad is hardly the same as liking ELP (when you were a lad or otherwise). Also lots of prog fans who weren't ELP fans hated ELP, they just thought they were a shit band, prog or otherwise, can you get to that? And now I want mark s to show up and blow all this "influence" bullshit out of the water and about a million feet in the air. Phil Oakey was the main prog fan in Human League by the way.

Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 25 February 2005 09:53 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

If I took the best bits from ELPs entire catalogue, I could maybe make a decent single alkbum.

The "electronic pioneer" bit of ELP isn't so much the fact that Emerson used a Moog modular, more that he foregrounded it, put it up on stage for the audience to look at - plenty of acts had used Moog instruments on record before - Byrds, Beatles, Monkees, Spirit & more before, but I don't think anyone had even considered taking one on stage. I don't think anyone realised what a great stage prop a large-format modular is either. In that respect, I guess, yes, they were "electronic pioneers". Perhaps one could also say they were popularisers of an instrument, and to some extent a sound that had 'till recently been part of academia, omg, electronic music ruined by the imposition of the keyboard etc etc etc, but that ignores Wendy Carlos, and all those novelty Moog record copyists w/1/11th of her skill. I saw a picture of Radiohead recently, W/Jonny G's Analogue Solutions modular, and the first thing I tought of was ELP.

In that piece in the Guardian, Phil Oakey said he didn't like ELP. Yes, Genesis and VDGG were the bands he mentioned. My favourites, heh.

When I listen to ELP now, they sound dated in a way other progressive bands don't. Our singer has a bunch of live boots, and there's a lot of it that's really just blues jamming, played on a GX-1 instead of a giutar, and that's pretty terrible. The best progressive music moved away from blues, not that I've anything against blues, but it's not all there is.

I agree that The Nice were better.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 25 February 2005 10:22 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Then again, I suppose if IDM artists were to stick n4z| daggers into their powerbooks as part of their stage acts, that could be an improvement, couldn't it.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 25 February 2005 10:25 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Phil Oakey said he didn't like ELP. Yes, Genesis and VDGG were the bands he mentioned. My favourites, heh.

The prog fans I know say exactly the same thing - i.e. punk/post punk guys who first started buying records pre-punk or were a bit hippyish when they were 14. Genesis, in particular, are amazingly popular.

Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 25 February 2005 10:31 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Why hasn't anyone said anything about the synthesiser solo on 'The old castle'(Il vecchio castello) from 'Pictures at an exhibition'? It must surely b one of the best synthesiser solos ever!

Morg, Saturday, 26 February 2005 03:36 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

"Tocatta" from Brain Salad Surgery -- that's as close as ELP come to electronic pioneering.

And since everyone's shilling for their own pieces on ELP, here's mine on the great Love Beach...

Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Saturday, 26 February 2005 05:11 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Er, here: http://www.stylusmagazine.com/feature.php?ID=413

Naive Teen Idol (Naive Teen Idol), Saturday, 26 February 2005 05:20 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Matt,

you have to hear "Taste of My Love", if you have not already. Trust me, the lyrics alone do not do the song full justice. :)

Joe (Joe), Saturday, 26 February 2005 12:59 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

As a teenage prog obsessive, I owned one ELP album - the first one - and barely listened to it. I don't think anybody's pretending that punk was anti-prog any more: for fuck's sake, Magazine, people. Pashmina was cock on about them being too blues-based for most prog kids.

Also, re: influence. Get one Silver Apples.

Ferlin Husky (noodle vague), Saturday, 26 February 2005 14:30 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
Does anyone else think Trilogy is a completely AWESOME album? Damn I need to put that on when I get home

surmounter (rra123), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 16:04 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Dave's point, that he didn't put in, was that Kraftwerk is owed the most, and that they were recording at the same time.

... but not recording with synthesizers of course

Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 16:14 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Bernie Worrell affectionately refers to Keith Emerson (with a mention of the mighty Tarkus, no less) in the Funkadelic issue of Wax Poetics.

Andy_K (Andy_K), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 16:15 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i love tarkus but i never got into it as much as trilogy. that was always the magnum opus for me.

surmounter (rra123), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 16:17 (eleven years ago) Permalink

trilogy. that was always the magnum opus for me

I want to agree, but I also want to say that their debut is pretty stellar: I mean, Tank and Take a Pebble on the same album...

J. Grizzle (trainsmoke), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 16:25 (eleven years ago) Permalink

yes that's very true, tht album is beautifu

surmounter (rra123), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 16:27 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i have a hard time listening to any of these records and I'm a big ostentatious prog fan

kyle (akmonday), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 16:33 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i never minded "from the beginning," that greg lake song where he's sort of like gene clark lost in the english spookiness of post-beatle panic. the big selling point was always the synths, though, so greg lake was just another crappy pop songwriter w/ sound effects, and just goes to show how savvy marketers got by the time of "trilogy" and that prime era of prog, "fragile" about the same time. the piano-hammond interaction on "tarkus" was pretty substandard, i thought, and the songs were pretty substandard procol harum-isms along the lines of "lucky man" (did you know that the synth solo in that one just sorta *happened*, man--they were pioneers of aleatory, too). but "pioneers," sure, just like edgar winter on "frankenstein" and "free ride" or focus when they yodel on their big hit. you got to hear synths, clumsy popsong, etc., and also another useless "supergroup" of the era, like greg lake sang in king crimson before fripp-o went jazz.

under duress i could listen to "trilogy" again, "from the beginning" is actually quite pleasant '70s single along the lines of anne murray, "saturday in the park" or that one great ambrosia single, "nice, nice, very nice." not perhaps as good as argent's "hold your head up," or flash's "small beginnings" (the latter is actually kinda cool) or for that matter, three dog night's "out in the country" and "harvest for the world," that great, spooky single of theirs. '70s music. of course, i have heard them do "pictures at an exhibition," which was a nice conceptual-art piece, and they got *really* pretentious and art-directed by the time of "brain salad surgery."

edd s hurt (ddduncan), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 16:45 (eleven years ago) Permalink

They were among the first people who used all those Moogs and Arps, but I wouldn't call them "pioneers", considering they debuted in 1970 while The Monkees and The Byrds had used synths already in 1967.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 17:11 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Btw. Kraftwerk themselves were basically starting out as a prog band. Sure, more krautrock than space rock/symphonic rock, but krautrock was also part of the entire prog scene.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 17:12 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Thankfully, Kraftwerk quickly outgrew such juvenile nonsense

Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 17:15 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Wasn't Keith Emerson instrumental (ugh) in the development of the Minimoog, by encouraging Bob Moog to create a compact synth they could take on tour? That would render ELP influential in some way, I imagine.

M. Agony Von Bontee (M. Agony Von Bontee), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 17:16 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I think you're right there

Tom D. (Dada), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 17:18 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Thankfully, Kraftwerk quickly outgrew such juvenile nonsense

I think not. "Trans Europa Express" is a concept album featuring several lengthy and complex tracks with obvious influence from classical music.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 20:29 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Wasn't Keith Emerson instrumental (ugh) in the development of the Minimoog, by encouraging Bob Moog to create a compact synth they could take on tour? That would render ELP influential in some way, I imagine.

Somewhat. Except the people behind the Arp 2600 thought likewise, and by "pushing" their synths on several major acts probably did more to spread synth technology than Moog did.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 20:31 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Btw. lots of interesting facts at the following sites:
www.vintagesynth.com
www.synthmuseum.com
www.synthmania.com

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Wednesday, 31 January 2007 20:32 (eleven years ago) Permalink

HAVE YOU WALKED,
ON THE STONES OF YEARS?

:)

Joe (Joe), Thursday, 1 February 2007 03:20 (eleven years ago) Permalink

thanks for reminding me i'm gonna dig up some elp!

surmounter (rra123), Thursday, 1 February 2007 03:23 (eleven years ago) Permalink

The song Trilogy kills me.

surmounter (rra123), Thursday, 1 February 2007 03:26 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i swear this song is crazy. the drums kick in and it's like a different planet.

surmounter (rra123), Thursday, 1 February 2007 03:31 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Thanks for the (semi-)links, Geir!

Myonga Van Bonhomie (Monty Von Byonga), Thursday, 1 February 2007 05:06 (eleven years ago) Permalink

eleven years pass...

omg I am drunk now and getting into ELP what is wrong with me?

mirostones, Thursday, 6 December 2018 03:58 (six days ago) Permalink

that you waited this long

frogbs, Thursday, 6 December 2018 04:39 (six days ago) Permalink

Carl Palmer could’ve been a pioneering electronic drummer, with the setup he had around ‘74-‘75 or so. But while the setup itself was innovative, he was still Carl Palmer.

Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Thursday, 6 December 2018 04:53 (six days ago) Permalink

re: the topic of this thread, I'm someone whose entry into Really Loving Music was through dance music of the mid-2000s, and a copy of the ELP live album from my dad's CD collection led to a brief foray into prog obsessiveness (the primary remnants of which today are a ride-or-die Mars Volta fandom and a respect for any band that can get their songs satisfyingly over the 10-minute mark) because it was "rock with synthesizers" and could thus break through my kneejerk aversion to a rock's then-apparent status as EDM's eternal mean older brother. Now, none of this rules out the possibility that I am, in fact, stupid, but it is at least a real data point in the argument's favor.
Also live "Aquatarkus" rules regardless of any other claims made here or elsewhere:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njbx8wJ78Qg

You're all losing so many points on your progress bars (Champiness), Thursday, 6 December 2018 05:16 (six days ago) Permalink


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