Madonna: Classic Or Dud

"When I think of who my opponents are, I don't conjure up a party or a class so much as a sensibility. "They" - the enemy - are people whose souls are cold and whose bullet-point priorities close the window on imagination and genuine freedom of thought while increasing their own claims to ethical superiority. A great many of them are in the government, but they also find employment in newspapers and the corridors of academe. It's hard to pick them out on sight so you have to learn to spot them by their responses to the things around them.

One technique I use is to ask them what they think about Madonna . If they think she's sexy, they're unlikely to be real human beings. Ditto if they think she's "really evolved as an artist" or that she's a "really inspiring role model" - Patricia Hewitt would probably say that, or Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. No, the only proper responses are indifference or disdain, both of which qualify you, in my Thatcherite definition, as "one of us". I don't know much about Auberon Waugh's taste in music, but I doubt that he would have disappointed me in this matter.

(from http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4121863,00.html )

Up until the mature, angliophile Madonna, obviously Classic. Now? Enough already.

N.

Though Guy Fucking Ritchie certainly does a lot to ruin it.

So what? she changed her haircut.. Big deal.

Typical.

Absolute stone-cold *classic*, at least til she hooked up with the comedy cockney.

Burning Up should be covered by Britney Spears.

On Madonna: Classic. Finest song about a blow job ever.

As far as Madonna is concerned, the slew of fantastic singles she put out in the eighties and early nineties surely assures classic status, even if her last album did smell like a pile of dead dogs.

2. I am a tad suspicious of that view, though - it goes rather easy on the 80s work. There are a few 80s-Madonna tracks I really am very fond of: 'Papa Don't Preach', and, well... a few others. But I suspect there's a lot of waff filler, too, and that nostalgia is much in play here. Mind you, I always found most of the Like A Prayer LP excellent.

3. Nicole is right: intelligent and sensitive chap though Nick D is, he shouldn't hitch his colours - or anything much else - to Charlotte Raven's mast. The only thing worse than what Raven polemicizes against in that segment is the gal and her views themselves. She is constantly sounding off embarrassingly about things she knows nothing of, and (unlike us) getting paid loads for the privilege. There may be some truth in what ND quoted from her, but there's probably some idiocy and Burchillesque perversity too. And when she says 'Don't trust people who say Madonna's sexy' - well. That depends. I don't like the adjective one bit, and I wouldn't apply it to Madonna now, but if you held a bazooka to my head and made me apply it to anyone, it might have to be mid-80s Madonna.

Oh, Edward? "Burning Up" is Amazingly Brilliant. You are not alone.

"Don't Tell Me" comes across as being just as forced as "Music", I will admit. However, there's something about the way that song is written which also makes it sound more natural. (My guess is that the backing music supports the melody rather than distracts from it, although the unchartiable part of me wants to give "Music" bonus points for trying to keep me from noticing that Madonna didn't seem to come up with a tune for it.)

My general point was that I'm just bored stiff with talk about Madonna. The British media and associated chatterers just go on and on about her, her iconic status, her latest fucking hairstyle. I know this has been going on for years, ever since broadsheet writers and cultural studies lecturers latched onto her, but it seems to have got worse since she came over here.

And it makes me feel old to know that most teenagers are probably wondering what on earth all the fuss is about. Sorry, appealing to the opinions of imaginary teenagers is stupid thing to do.

I don't dislike her. I don't even care about Guy Ritchie. I just think most of the talk about her these days is regurgative rather springing from any real interest in 'Tell Me' or her latest haircut.

Like I, and almost everyone else here seems to say, 80s Madonna - classic. Since then, zzzzzz.....

1. I've always liked Terry Wogan - but god, he was lame when he interviewed Madonna.

2. Her accent - the cod-Brit one she adopted from late 80s on (?): dud.

3. What a load of piffle re. 'We all love her cos she lives in England now'. But that's probably been covered above.

4. The music seemed to get better over the years. I was so struck when 'Who's That Girl?' came on. I hadn't heard it in AGES, had always known I liked it, and it still sounded good. Some (to my ears) didn't: don't care for 'Vogue' much.

4. But slightly larger (though still terribly 'subjective') point: I was surprised at how bad the early stuff seemed. 'Holiday', 'Lucky Star', 'Like A Virgin': yes, they still have the predictable 80s nostalgia value. BUT even as I kind of enjoy that, I seem to hear a naffness, a tackiness in them. In fact one virtue of this prog was that I seemed to see the early stuff as though for the first time, as a kid. It reminded me of seeing early Madonna not as a loveable 80- retro icon of our childhood, but as The Big New Pop Star c. 1984. How did she seem, that way? Arrogant - self-satisfied - unsubtle - overrated - sinister - smug. 'Like A Virgin' felt crass and brazen. I'd never heard it sound so BAD in 15 years or more.

So in a way, one thing it made me feel was a resemblance (from my POV) between early Madonna and today's chart sensations (the people that Tom E likes). It made me feel that she had been just as bad as them. I hadn't felt that for a long time.

That said, her music's actually pretty damn good - "Cherish", "Open Your Heart", probably the entirety of _True Blue_. (Not that this is news to anyone but myself.) She's a crap actress, though, and a crapper singer, especially after her _Evita_ lessons - who the hell taught her how to hold notes? And WHY did they teach her that? And why is she posing with a guitar now like it's a revelation? "Oh, damn, I can play a C chord! This'll impress people!" And I like her better as a brunette. But she survived posing nude with Vanilla Ice, which is a skill I can only hope to emulate.

(And has anyone even mentioned _Ray of Light_ in terms of a quality slice of Ciccone "youth"? Or is there an anti-William Orbit contingent on this list that'll shit on such notions?)

But it's a lose-lose situation, this sort of talk. You praise her like you should, you're just towing the line with the rest of the acolytes. You disapprove, you're a wack playa hata. Just accept her as true American royalty and step away from the doors.

(But, lord, hearing her butcher "Like A Virgin" on that VH1 Girlie Show special was wretched. She turned it into a German cabaret number. A SLOW cabaret number. Lugubrious and woefully self- indulgent, Kubrick-style. "You're so fine, unt you're mine!")

'Ah but thats just the point, she's a weathervane, a survivor and a late 20th century pop icon'. Hmmmmmmmmm.

Klassic

(to be precise, he is not strictly speaking the worst - I find it hard to visualise anyone who could be a worse writer than Imran Ahmed of the NME - but that wouldn't quite have the same universal appeal when it comes to chat-ups)

Only someone who doesn't appreciate pop culture could say Madonna's a dud.

From what I heard Portillo was trying to persuade her to be the star turn at the next Tory election rally. Still she's moved back to LA now, so the sight of her standing next to Bob Monkhouse, Jim Davidson and Ben Elton (prediction) will not come to pass.

You're probably right at that. What the fuck happened to him anyway?

She is also a very crafty song-writer. What is so amazing is how she plays with song structure. Guys if you have ever written songs, you know it takes a musical-genius to write that many styles of song-writing. It is fucking hard. I don't know how she does it but it is her. Yea I know she collaborates but from what I have read, she is always the primary lyricists. She has written very complex songs. Her use of different song structures is nothing short of brilliance. And to make them all hits like she does is pretty astounding.

I am not interested in the petty fighting between fans of different singers that goes on. I am just giving my opinion as a musician. Madonna is the real deal. Even other bands I talk with that aren't into her music give her props for being the real deal. In our circles, we respect Madonna even if we aren't into her music. She is a classic all the way and will go down as one of the top 10 greatest female singer/song-writers of all time. She is a musical genius.

lex gets "Deeper and Deeper"

I want "Thief of Hearts"

I'd be up for it! Even just an unofficial set of pieces on the album.

If done by song then I'd want "Waiting" or "Bad Girl" (assuming "Deeper & Deeper" is taken).

I get "Waiting" or the awesome task of defending "Why's It So Hard"

"Why's it so on this album?"

"It complements 'In This Life'."

“Secret Garden,” pls (assuming “Deeper and Deeper” etc)

Funny this thread got revived, for yesterday I started writing a Madonna '80s ranking that does not align with consensus.

I couldn't muster a full chapter but I have a soft spot for "Why's It So Hard" simply due to the reggae bounce piano house production.

On second thought, I think I'd have more fun with "Fever."

According to the 33 1/3 site, they just had a round of new submissions last year, and thus will probably not be doing another one until 2020 or so (I'm guessing). If y'all are serious about making "Erotica by gaylxor" a thing, I'm down for putting something together for the next round. There is nothing on the site prohibiting submissions by multiple authors, but if this actually gets to the early planning stages, we might want inquire about this at some point.

I couldn't muster a full chapter but I have a soft spot for "Why's It So Hard" simply due to the reggae bounce piano house production.

― Tim F, Wednesday, January 30, 2019 8:20 PM (five minutes ago)

and the gay "why is it soooo damnnnn hardddd"

So here's my eighties list.

Disqualify You Can Dance and I agree with this ranking.

my fave moment was Sonic Youth leaving a boombox playing "Live to Tell" onstage after a show in Hoboken, 1986

My favorite moment tonight was eating a pink cookie.

Looks like she's doing a theatere tour, residencies in each city? She's playing something like five nights at the Chicago Theatere here this fall.

Classic: five or six of the singles between 1983 and 1986, plus Vogue.

Dud: almost everything else.

I think I feel somewhat similarly except that I hate "Vogue".

Wow: https://news.avclub.com/like-a-prayer-producer-shares-3-demos-in-protest-of-auc-1836663057?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MSDeyFeafo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1bXwxH6I1I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyFramnrEWc

protesting an upcoming auction of the Madonna’s personal items

This seems unlikely

According to Rolling Stone, there are 70 items going on sale; in addition to the tapes, costumes and a “handwritten apology letter” sent to Madonna a year before he was murdered are included.

Also, good to hear that being murdered hasn’t stopped Mr Stone from speaking.

I had to hover over the URL myself to see just who died.

I definitely was wondering why that piece was trying to convince me that Patrick Leonard was posting to Youtube from the afterlife.

Courtesy of Found Footage Festival, did you ever see the Danny Aiello *reponse* video to Papa Don't Preach; 'Papa Wants the Best for You' ??

I'm not making this up..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5qp3XqFQTI

“You know, that (Papa Don't Preach video) came about in a very strange way,” Danny explains. “I had no idea who Madonna was, so I said to (daughter) Stacey in passing, ‘They want me to do this music video with this girl named Madonna.‘She said, ‘Dad, Dad, you have to.’ I went back and said I’ll do it if my daughter is permitted on the set taking pictures with Madonna. ... Madonna sort of backed up and told her representative that I don’t do that. My daughter has hated her ever since. I’m a movie actor doing this piece of crap!”

lol

amazing

Gonna spend the next few minutes sobbing into a punching bag because of this

This oral history of the making of Truth or Dare/In Bed With Madonna is pretty good, and a reminder what an unstoppable and outwardly untouchable force Madonna was back then. https://t.co/X6MA9ufrs4

— Justin Myers (@theguyliner) May 8, 2021

Looks like Madonna's albums will be getting super deluxe releases....

https://www.madonna.com/news/title/madonna-and-warner-music-group-announce-milestone--career-spanning-partnership

"Madonna will personally curate expensive expansive deluxe editions for many of her landmark albums, as well as introduce unique releases for special events, and much more. The series of releases will be overseen by Warner Music’s catalog team, led by Kevin Gore, President of Global Catalog, Recorded Music, with the first release to be announced soon."

happy birthday, girl

Dud

happy birthday, girl

Dud

LMAO

EROTICA outtakes? Sign me up!

Fully remastered bonus Blu rays of videos that aren’t just cut from the VHS and shoved on a DVD?? Sign me up!

I hope they absolutely go to town, Prince style.

Did I miss a link to exactly which "landmark" albums are being reissued? Weird they weren't mentioned by name.

I guess that means you also missed this:

On October 8, Madonna will be releasing her highly anticipated documentary film, MADAME X, exclusively on Paramount+, the streaming service from ViacomCBS, and MTV Entertainment Studios in the U.S., Latin America, Australia, the Nordics, and Canada. Fans outside of these markets can watch the documentary on MTV. Filmed in Lisbon, Portugal, the film captures the pop icon’s rare and rapturous tour performance, hailed by sold-out theatrical audiences worldwide. The unprecedented intimate streaming experience will take viewers on a journey as compelling and audacious as Madonna’s fearless persona, Madame X, a secret agent traveling around the world, changing identities, fighting for freedom, and bringing light to dark places.

how does that answer my question?

Ha, it doesn't, just liked the ridiculousness of "The unprecedented intimate streaming experience will take viewers on a journey as compelling and audacious as Madonna’s fearless persona, Madame X, a secret agent traveling around the world, changing identities, fighting for freedom, and bringing light to dark places." But more in answer to your question, while that link above doesn't specify which albums or in what order, I think it can be presumed to be more or less the ones we expect, at least based on the era-specific headshots displayed.

Spotty but interesting Madonna covers album from Italians Do it Better released this week.

Ha, it doesn't, just liked the ridiculousness of "The unprecedented intimate streaming experience will take viewers on a journey as compelling and audacious as Madonna’s fearless persona, Madame X, a secret agent traveling around the world, changing identities, fighting for freedom, and bringing light to dark places." But more in answer to your question, while that link above doesn't specify which albums or in what order, I think it can be presumed to be more or less the ones we expect, at least based on the era-specific headshots displayed.

I actually like Madonna but the egomaniacal obnoxiousness of the past five years have been way too grating, even by her standards.

interesting to see whether her habit of stealing children is explained as being part of this superhero act or if it'll just be just ignored, I could see it going either way

I don't know why that isn't a bigger scandal. well I sort of do but it should be. I would have said classic at one point but she's a monster

Spotty but interesting Madonna covers album from Italians Do it Better released this week.

― brotherlovesdub, Tuesday, 17 August 2021 14:47 (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

skipped through this earlier and it's almost comically bad

anyone going to her upcoming tour or considering it? I’m thinking about it but pretty hesitant because it’s a hundred for nosebleeds (which is all I can afford) and I have no idea the quality of the show she’ll put on at this point

I'm pretty sure it will be high quality, she generally doesn't skimp on the productions and at this stage she's just another visual cog in a giant colorful wheel.

A friend, about 22 years younger, is going no questions asked. I'm surprised.

Oh I’m sure production-wise it’ll be amazing, I just have my reservations

Yeah, it's been decades since she phoned in a tour, based on what I've seen

We lucked out and got face value tickets for the LA show.

yeah, I found the fan club presale password on Reddit last night and there were a few tix left last night

as of now, idk