Black Sabbath: Classic or Dud?

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What is this/ that stands befo-ooooooore me?

Astonishingly, this would appear never to have been done before!

For my part, classic beyond all other definitions of the word classic for the first six albums alone.

The guy on Channel 4's Heavy Metal Top 10 all those years ago who said that the song Black Sabbath "begins, invents and defines heavy metal - everything else is just interpretation" was so OTM!

But this thread is intended for the discussion of Black Sabbath the band, not just the song...

M Carty (mj_c), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:19 (fifteen years ago) link

It's probably never been done before because, clearly, it goes without saying: BLACK SABBATH = CLASSIC

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:27 (fifteen years ago) link

Very true, that is perhaps the most incontrovertible fact in all of music.

M Carty (mj_c), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:32 (fifteen years ago) link

Ridiculously classic (up until Ozzy left anyway.)

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:36 (fifteen years ago) link

I mean, it's probably very naive of me to say this, but I can't imagine anyone saying "dud" to (classic, vintage-line-up) Black Sabbath. I mean, even if it wasn't quite your cup of tea, you must admit that they excelled at their particular art.

Later, post-Born Again-era Sabs? Eh, not so much.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:36 (fifteen years ago) link

Heaven & Hell = just as classic as the Ozzy years.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:37 (fifteen years ago) link

It also seems like their most Led Zep-ish album, which is not a bad thing.

Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:37 (fifteen years ago) link

I can't imagine anyone saying "dud" to (classic, vintage-line-up) Black Sabbath

except for the classic, vintage lineup's last couple albums. technical ecstasy, anyone? anyone???

fact checking cuz (fcc), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:54 (fifteen years ago) link

I'll stand by Never Say Die.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:56 (fifteen years ago) link

Incontrovertibly classic. Funny I was just wondering this morning who'd win in a taking sides, Zeppelin or Sabbath? Maybe that's something to ponder, because who doesn't worship Sabbath?

steve hise, Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:57 (fifteen years ago) link

Funny I was just wondering this morning who'd win in a taking sides, Zeppelin or Sabbath?

There's a thread in the archive on this very subject.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 13:58 (fifteen years ago) link

In fact there are (sorta) two:

Taking sides : Zeppelin or Sabbath

Taking Sides: Led Zeppelin Vol. 4 vs. Black Sabbath Vol.4

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:00 (fifteen years ago) link

Damn Ned, thanks, that was interesting.

Anyways one of the best love songs of all time is "Sweet Leaf."

steve hise, Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:07 (fifteen years ago) link

Classic beyond classic. I can't imagine what almost any modern loud rock music (good or bad) would sound like without their influence.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:21 (fifteen years ago) link

Black Sabbath (Warner Bros. '70) "The worst of the counterculture on a plastic platter - bullshit necromancy, drug-impaired reaction time, long solos, everything"....."Original grade: E. C-

robert christgau

elrod hendrix, Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:25 (fifteen years ago) link

he just listed some of the reasons people LIKE them.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:29 (fifteen years ago) link

This is like voting over and over and still being unsure your vote has been counted. I don't know anyone who would answer 'dud.'

57 7th (calstars), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:33 (fifteen years ago) link

well, xgau.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:35 (fifteen years ago) link

The worst of the counterculture on a plastic platter - bullshit necromancy, drug-impaired reaction time, long solos, everything"

yeah, he just made my case. if there were a meter for classic, the red part would go 0 +1 +2 BLACK SABBATH.

el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 14:52 (fifteen years ago) link

Dud.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 18:15 (fifteen years ago) link

Wow, obviously I was the only person - ever - to not be into metal when I was younger. I don't even have enough knowledge of this subject to say classic or dud, but I will say they have never been my cup of tea. The whole aesthetic of that genre always put me off.

sleep (sleep), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 20:26 (fifteen years ago) link

The first song that I loved was The Orb's Little Fluffy Clouds (live), and that is what made me start exploring music a bit. I didn't take interest in any form of rock until some years later when I was almost out of high school. To this day, I don't think I could really enjoy 70s/80s metal.

sleep (sleep), Wednesday, 27 October 2004 20:30 (fifteen years ago) link

I think somebody said CLASSIC through Heaven & Hell. That is correct. Honestly the only post H&H I've ever heard is "Mob Rules". That was it for me.

My favorite all time UNDER-mentioned Sab songs: "Hand of Doom" "A National Acrobat" "The Thrill Of It All" "Junior's Eyes"

pheNAM (pheNAM), Thursday, 28 October 2004 00:13 (fifteen years ago) link

Anyways one of the best love songs of all time is "Sweet Leaf."

-- steve hise (shistee...), October 27th, 2004.


Sweat Loaf comes ridiculously close to bettering it though.

Piers (piers), Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:44 (fifteen years ago) link

But yes, I don't know how it could be possible to say DUD when considering the first six Sabbath albums.

OK, unless you're really not into heavy rock or metal. Is this the case for you Myonga?

Piers (piers), Thursday, 28 October 2004 05:47 (fifteen years ago) link

Heh heh heh...GOTCHA! I was taking the piss. Completely, undeniably CLASSIC up to/including Sabotage.

[I couldn't believe that Sabbath even deserved the classic/dud treatment, because I couldn't believe that ANYONE considered 'em duds. I was gonna post an are-you-kidding? reply immediately after my "DUD" assessment. But just before I did, I read Xgau's little blurb about "drug-impaired reaction time" and thought it would be HIGH-larious to wait awhile before changing my opinion, then finally changing it FOR REAL, and then blaming my long delay on...yep, you guessed it! It might've been funnier if I'd waited a day or two, but I've always been terribly impatient.]

Anyway, again, CLASSIC through first six albums; and even the inferior Dio and Gillan lineups produced a great LP between 'em.

Finally, one of these days I'm going to finally buy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, just to see if they're really as bad as they're reputed.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Thursday, 28 October 2004 06:48 (fifteen years ago) link

I'll stand by Never Say Die.

-- Alex in NYC (vassife...), October 27th, 2004.


Finally, one of these days I'm going to finally buy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die, just to see if they're really as bad as they're reputed.

-- Myonga Von Bontee (scottyfield...), October 28th, 2004.

Never heard Technical Ecstacy, but Never Say Die is grebt for the:

- Cover art
- Title track
- The start of 'Air Dance'

The rest is decent, listenable stuff, just not as good as what came before (and it's got synths, not that that's necessarily a bad thing).

Sasha (sgh), Thursday, 28 October 2004 06:58 (fifteen years ago) link

Aha! Myonga - xpost - I suspected as much (well, I'll say that now). But it's got to only be a matter of time before someone answers dud for real... and I'll have to check out "Never Say Die" which slipped completely beneath my radar.

Piers (piers), Thursday, 28 October 2004 07:09 (fifteen years ago) link

"Junior's Eyes" on Never Say Die rocks as well, dang it.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 28 October 2004 12:48 (fifteen years ago) link

It does, but I can't get over the synth onslaught.

Sasha on a different PC, Friday, 29 October 2004 00:48 (fifteen years ago) link

three years pass...

Please someone tell me they know the two songs on "The Ozzman Cometh" comp: "Black Sabbath" ('70 Basement Tapes) and "War Pigs" (1970 Basement Tapes).

Both of these songs are clear evidence that BIMBLE IS MORE GOTH THAN YOU.

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Sunday, 21 September 2008 04:19 (eleven years ago) link

Um there's actually more than two basement tapes on that comp (if you get the 2xcd version). Don't forget the awesome versions of "Fairies Wear Boots" and "Behind the Wall of Sleep".

I love the production of those tunes and all the alternate lyrics and verses. Total godhead.

Nate Carson, Sunday, 21 September 2008 09:08 (eleven years ago) link

yeah I will have to get the 2xCD version.

A goth's work is never done.

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Sunday, 21 September 2008 09:37 (eleven years ago) link

is that "war pigs" the "walpurgis" version with the satan/witch themed lyrics? i love that.

REIGN IN FUDGE (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Sunday, 21 September 2008 10:08 (eleven years ago) link

yeah that's what it is, dude.

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Sunday, 21 September 2008 17:14 (eleven years ago) link

three months pass...

Moka, Tuesday, 23 December 2008 22:10 (eleven years ago) link

That...

Just... No. Ugh.

novaheat, Wednesday, 24 December 2008 01:58 (eleven years ago) link

<3 cindy und bert <3

cuisine of demise (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Wednesday, 24 December 2008 03:36 (eleven years ago) link

three months pass...

Dehumanize is good too people.

III IV V (Bo Jackson Overdrive), Monday, 6 April 2009 20:02 (eleven years ago) link

heaven & hell did a dehumanizer song that was pretty good. i only knew it was dehumanizer because they put the cover to that album up on the big video screen

d20 riot tard (M@tt He1ges0n), Monday, 6 April 2009 20:12 (eleven years ago) link

Probably Computer God. Maybe TV Crimes.

Bill Magill, Monday, 6 April 2009 20:16 (eleven years ago) link

Back in 2007 Heaven and Hell played "After All (The Dead)", "Computer God", and "I"...the latter of which sounded really great. That song's held up very well.

A. Begrand, Monday, 6 April 2009 20:27 (eleven years ago) link

I is definitely great. I don't know if they played Computer God at the Radio City show I was at.

Bill Magill, Monday, 6 April 2009 21:02 (eleven years ago) link

one month passes...

You've got to be kidding me.

http://www.reuters.com/article/peopleNews/idUSTRE54T00420090531

Advantage: Iommi.

Bill Magill, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:45 (eleven years ago) link

The reaction on dffd and probably all the other boards was "Sharon Is A Cunt"

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:49 (eleven years ago) link

that should infact be a poll

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:50 (eleven years ago) link

poll w/ one option

鬼の手 (Edward III), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:53 (eleven years ago) link

im sure theres x-factor viewers on ILX who like her. but someone do it to find out!

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:56 (eleven years ago) link

You're it Herm, i have no idea how to do it.

Bill Magill, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 16:59 (eleven years ago) link

you click on where it says new poll
http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/Poll/EnterPollInformationControllerServlet?boardid=41

pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:29 (eleven years ago) link

xp hmm, there are a few other serious contenders from that era (including In the Court of the Crimson King), but it's definitely up there.

And thanks for the link, Ned, I only read the other RS piece about their not-so-tacit jazziness.

romanesque architect (pomenitul), Thursday, 13 February 2020 16:44 (six months ago) link

That hi hat / ride cymbal swing motif can also be heard on the Wheels of Confusion intro and that song also evidences his behind the beat playing during the verses

calstars, Thursday, 13 February 2020 23:13 (six months ago) link

Further RS piece specifically about the cover art.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/black-sabbath-cover-art-keef-keith-macmillan-interview-951578/

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 13 February 2020 23:42 (six months ago) link

Enjoyed reading both of those articles, thanks.

He’s the Listener DJ, I’m the Listener Rapper (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 14 February 2020 03:16 (five months ago) link

Great article on the cover art of those first four albums... what a run!

You have seen the heavy groups (morrisp), Friday, 14 February 2020 05:25 (five months ago) link

(...and man, did their covers go seriously downhill afterwards, lol)

You have seen the heavy groups (morrisp), Friday, 14 February 2020 05:28 (five months ago) link

Lol

He’s the Listener DJ, I’m the Listener Rapper (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 14 February 2020 10:51 (five months ago) link

Never Say Die album art is fantastic

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 14 February 2020 13:36 (five months ago) link

Paranoid artwork is terrible

it's after the end of the world (Matt #2), Friday, 14 February 2020 13:50 (five months ago) link

yeah it sucks shit but it's iconic shit, i can't imagine it with another cover

Homegrown Georgia speedster Ladd McConkey (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 14 February 2020 14:07 (five months ago) link

Bingo. That said, maybe the original album title, War Pigs would have offset its awfulness somewhat.

romanesque architect (pomenitul), Friday, 14 February 2020 14:11 (five months ago) link

Nothing against Ward, I love the guy, but imagine someone with true jazz chops on those extended instrumentals on the first album

ncxkd, Monday, 24 February 2020 00:22 (five months ago) link

No I'm good

sorry for butt rockin (Neanderthal), Monday, 24 February 2020 00:33 (five months ago) link

Huh? Ward is awesome.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 24 February 2020 00:35 (five months ago) link

One of my favorite lines of inquiry. Not.

Something Super Stupid Cupid (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 February 2020 00:37 (five months ago) link

Ward is like Ginger Baker if Ginger Baker were as good as Ginger Baker thought he was.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 24 February 2020 01:02 (five months ago) link

They both lack precision and chops, I don’t see the shame in admitting that. They have other strengths

calstars, Monday, 24 February 2020 01:36 (five months ago) link

I wouldn't want to hear Black Sabbath with Elvin Jones or Art Blakey on drums and neither would you.

but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, 24 February 2020 01:40 (five months ago) link

Thinking about Sabbath with Hal Blaine on drums now and it's doing my head in

the punk wars are over and prog rock won (Matt #2), Monday, 24 February 2020 01:45 (five months ago) link

I wouldn't want to hear Black Sabbath with Elvin Jones or Art Blakey on drums and neither would you.
this. Yes I would

calstars, Monday, 24 February 2020 01:59 (five months ago) link

They both lack precision and chops, I don’t see the shame in admitting that. They have other strengths

― calstars, Sunday, February 23, 2020 8:36 PM bookmarkflaglink

The idea that Sabbath would be better with a jazz drummer is lol

sorry for butt rockin (Neanderthal), Monday, 24 February 2020 03:12 (five months ago) link

I believe this kind of substitution thought experiment is often applied to one of Ozzy's favorite bands.

Something Super Stupid Cupid (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 February 2020 03:17 (five months ago) link

I mean, seriously, if I thought Bill Ward sucked I would say so, but he's great, not just for Sabbath, but, well, especially for Sabbath. "The Wizard" for life, and you want jazz, that song swiiiiiiings.

(Elvin would be cool, too, but only if they replaced everyone else with the line-up of Sharrock's "Ask the Ages.")

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 24 February 2020 03:24 (five months ago) link

The Wizard is a great example of a tune that would benefit from some precision and finesse. All that empty space in the verses

calstars, Monday, 24 February 2020 04:09 (five months ago) link

wtf dude

brimstead, Monday, 24 February 2020 04:11 (five months ago) link

Man if only those Led Zepplelin albums had Michael Angelo Batio instead

sorry for butt rockin (Neanderthal), Monday, 24 February 2020 04:12 (five months ago) link

Always thought Fun House would’ve sounded better with someone more like Victor Wooten on bass.

brimstead, Monday, 24 February 2020 04:21 (five months ago) link

Are people seriously litigating the merits of BILL WARD as a drummer - not even as a drummer, he’s no Max Roach, no shit and thanks for sharing - but as the drummer on those Sabbath records, here? GTFO forever

thewufs, Monday, 24 February 2020 04:42 (five months ago) link

Are people seriously litigating the merits of BILL WARD as a drummer - not even as a drummer, he’s no Max Roach, no shit and thanks for sharing - but as the drummer on those Sabbath records, here? GTFO forever

thewufs, Monday, 24 February 2020 04:43 (five months ago) link

Sorry double post

thewufs, Monday, 24 February 2020 04:43 (five months ago) link

Nothing against Ward, I love the guy, but imagine someone with true jazz chops on those extended instrumentals on the first album

This is one of the worst challops I've read on ILM, and I fucking love challops.

romanesque architect (pomenitul), Monday, 24 February 2020 09:08 (five months ago) link

i guess technically it's a great challops, in that it is extremely challenging and requires you to re-examine your preconceptions

however, my preconceptions remain unchanged in this case because bill ward is a fucking monster and iommi/butler/ward are one of the greatest instrumental trios in rock

Generous Grant for Stepladder Creamery (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 24 February 2020 09:10 (five months ago) link

For maximum impact, said challop should have opened with ‘Nothing against Ozzy, I love the guy...’ Scat Sabbath ftw.

romanesque architect (pomenitul), Monday, 24 February 2020 09:14 (five months ago) link

some people say my love, can it be true?
skibadeebeebopbow
skibadeeboo

sorry for butt rockin (Neanderthal), Monday, 24 February 2020 14:53 (five months ago) link

calstars at 10:09 23 Feb 20

The Wizard is a great example of a tune that would benefit from some precision and finesse. All that empty space in the verses

EMPTY SPACE IS IMPORTANT

this is one for the ages, lord I wish Billy Cobham was endlessly jacking off paradiddles throughout the Wizard

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 24 February 2020 14:57 (five months ago) link

Iommi was great but imagine if they had a guitar player with five complete fingers!

sorry for butt rockin (Neanderthal), Monday, 24 February 2020 14:58 (five months ago) link

maybe just go listen to jazz ffs

bold caucasian eroticism (Simon H.), Monday, 24 February 2020 14:59 (five months ago) link

best Black Sabbath lineup:
Paul Chambers
Gene Krupa
Kenny Burrell
Ronnie James Dio

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 24 February 2020 15:03 (five months ago) link

Lol. Also
maybe just go listen to jazz ffs
^this

Something Super Stupid Cupid (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 February 2020 15:07 (five months ago) link

Iommi was great but imagine if they had a guitar player with five complete fingers!

if iommi's industrial accident was more serious he could have been a django-level jazz player, missed opportunity on his part imo

Generous Grant for Stepladder Creamery (bizarro gazzara), Monday, 24 February 2020 15:13 (five months ago) link

calstars at 10:09 23 Feb 20

The Wizard is a great example of a tune that would benefit from some precision and finesse. All that empty space in the verses

EMPTY SPACE IS IMPORTANT

this is one for the ages, lord I wish Billy Cobham was endlessly jacking off paradiddles throughout the Wizard
Ward plays all over that empty space though (somewhat awkwardly)

calstars, Monday, 24 February 2020 17:33 (five months ago) link

two months pass...

This is one of the worst challops I've read on ILM, and I fucking love challops.

can we get the board description changed please?

justice 4 CCR (Sparkle Motion), Thursday, 21 May 2020 19:17 (two months ago) link

You have my blessing.

pomenitul, Thursday, 21 May 2020 19:21 (two months ago) link

I also want to say, having not checked in on this thread in a bit, reading the last dozen or so posts had me laughing until I cried, something that has not occurred for a long while, and certainly not in the last couple of months. It made me really appreciate the wit and love of music that i find here, and I thank you all for it.

justice 4 CCR (Sparkle Motion), Thursday, 21 May 2020 19:44 (two months ago) link

two months pass...

Ward plays all over that empty space though (somewhat awkwardly)
― calstars, Monday, February 24, 2020 12:33 PM bookmarkflaglink

THEN IT'S NOT EMPTY SPACE

XVI Pedicabo eam (Neanderthal), Saturday, 1 August 2020 18:53 (one week ago) link

Well it would be, though, if Ward wasn’t playing

calstars, Sunday, 2 August 2020 11:33 (one week ago) link

some people say my love, can it be true?
skibadeebeebopbow
skibadeeboo

― sorry for butt rockin (Neanderthal), Monday, February 24, 2020 9:53 AM (five months ago) bookmarkflaglink

this made my day

Paul Ponzi, Sunday, 2 August 2020 12:02 (one week ago) link

best Black Sabbath lineup:
Paul Chambers
Gene Krupa
Kenny Burrell
Ronnie James Dio

this is the one that killed me

justice 4 CCR (Sparkle Motion), Sunday, 2 August 2020 17:57 (one week ago) link


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