The first hip hop song comprised of zero samples

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Watching that thing on Vh1 on the history of hip hop it hit me that when it started it was all record cutting, and now sampling is minimal to zero on most songs (due to copyright b.s. among other reasons), so there must've been a first to go sample-less, and it must've been a fairly important moment -- although I haven't heard it.

Planet Rock is pretty much new stuff besides the Kraftwerk (and I dont know if that counts as a sample since he's playing it on synth isn't he?) although you could say "that's electro!" or something.

David Allen (David Allen), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:01 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

now sampling is minimal to zero on most songs
'cept, you know, Kanye West, the 2nd biggest producer in hip-hop.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:06 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I don't recall "The Message" having any samples.

Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:08 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

now sampling is minimal to zero on most songs
'cept, you know, Kanye West, the 2nd biggest producer in hip-hop.
-- djdee2005 (ddrak...), October 5th, 2004.

Me like argue for no reason! Me no like answer question!

David Allen (David Allen), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:33 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Me like argue for no reason! Me no like answer question!

We've gotta get Andrew to put this on the front page of ILX as "Our Motto" or something. ASAP.

AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:43 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I think the first hip hop song with zero samples was created before the first one that used multiple samples.

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:45 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

word

AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:49 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

(but I'm quite sure he means first recorded, well known one)

AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:49 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Well, as said upthread "The Message" doesn't use any samples

Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:52 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

This has got to be taking the piss:

http://www.oldschoolhiphop.com/archives/archive7.htm

Chewshabadoo (Chewshabadoo), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:55 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Me like argue for no reason! Me no like answer question!
We've gotta get Andrew to put this on the front page of ILX as "Our Motto" or something. ASAP.

-- AaronHz (aaronh...), October 5th, 2004.

Do you think that's wise, sir?

Corporal Jones, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:57 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I dunno man, there's articles just like that in The Source all the time. "This TV commercial got our history wrong, let's boycott" would not be out of place in that goofy rag.

AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:59 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

(x-post)

AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 07:59 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Do you think that's wise, sir?

Holy shit.

AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 08:02 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I don't think anyone would consider that the suggestion that an ILXor was incapable of speaking grammatical English was inappropriate.

AaronHz (AaronHz), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 08:04 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Answer: the first rap single ever released, that is, Fatback Band feat. King Tim III: "Personality Jock".

Your question is kinda hard to answer, because a lot of the first rap singles (especially those) didn't use samples nor feature a DJ cutting records, but instead used live reinterpretations of the tracks DJs used to play. "Rapper's Delight" has no samples, but it has the Sugarhill house band playing a part Chic's "Good Times" on the background. A better question would be, what was the first well-known ("Personality Jock" has mere novelty value) rap song not based on already existing material. Kurtis Blow's "The Breaks" was released in 1980 (two years before "The Message"), I can't remember it having any noticeable lifts from other songs. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 08:09 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

"(especially those on Sugarhill)"

Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 08:10 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Someone's gonna say "Rapture" by Blondie and someone's head is gonna burst into flames. I predict.

Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 13:08 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

i mean it REALLY WAS the FIRST RAP song.

peter smith (plsmith), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 13:24 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

this is a wierd question...as others have pointed out, non-sample rap was actually dominate BEFORE sample based rap came about.

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 13:28 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

what concerns me here is the suspicion that we forgot about dre

You've Got to Pick Up Every Stitch (tracerhand), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 14:45 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Me like argue for no reason! Me no like answer question!

haha boy he's got my number.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 14:53 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I'm siding with Tuomas with his call on "The Breaks".

Rollie Pemberton (Rollie Pemberton), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 18:58 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I think "Throughout Your Years" is underrated.

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 18:59 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Tons of early hip-hop was just drum machines and synths -- looping "samples" before samplers was harder than just playing.

Mark (MarkR), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 19:03 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Tuomas said some of what I was going to say; it's not like those early rap singles even USED samplers, per se'. Though there were definitely singles that came out in 1979 (pre-"Breaks") that lacked blatant rips of music from other sources. (when were the first Spoonie Gee and Funky Four Plus One More and DJ Hollywood and Afrika Bambaaataa singles? And what about those "Wack Rap" guys - Solid C, Bobby D, and Kool Drop? That was 1979, right?) I doubt "The Message" (which may or may not bit "The Message" by, um, Cymande or whatever they were called - or wait, didn't it bite "Bra" by Cymande??) was even the first Grandmaster Flash single with no use of earlier music in it -- what about "Freedom" or "Superrappin" (#1 and #2) or whatever?? But anyway, yeah, "Personality Jock/King Tim III" by Fatback is a pretty good answer to this question, either way...

chuck, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 19:08 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

oops; maybe i was confused -- see tracks # 9 and #12 below; maybe that's what i was thinking of. now i can't remember whether "the message" incorporated pieces of "bra," or "love is the message," or both, or neither, or nothing at all, or what....


>>Essential Mix: Classic Edition - Grandmaster Flash [1 CD, Amazon US]
1. I Can't Wait - Nu Shooz 2. I Found Lovin' - Fatback Band 3. Before I Let Go - Maze Featuring Frankie Beverly 4. We Got The Funk - Positive Force 5. Rapture - Blondie 6. Last Night A DJ Saved My Life - Indeep 7. Cavern - Liquid Liquid 8. I'll Do Anything For You - Denroy Mrogan 9. Bra - Cymande 10. Walking On Sunshine - Rockers Revenge 11. Rock Your World - Weeks & Co. 12. Love Is The Message - MFSB Featuring The Three Degrees 13. Give It Up Or Turnit A Loose - James Brown 14. It's Just Begun - Jimmy Castor Bunch 15. You're The One For Me - D Train 16. Planet Rock - Afrika Bambaataa & The Soul Sonic Force

chuck, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 19:36 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

and apparently cymande DID also have a song called "the message," on the same album as "bra." But maybe grandmaster flash just sampled its NAME, who knows?

chuck, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 19:41 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

tech nerd question: What gear were people using before commerically available samplers were readily available? I mean guitar delay pedals can be used as primitive samplers since they can be used to grab a snippet and trigger it by tapping in by hand: did anybody do this on early rap records before samplers got affordable (ie. circa the Mantronix era, was it just turntables and tape cutting or were people using lofi gear because Fairlights still cost too much?)

Drew Daniel, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 19:44 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

"The Message" is already mentioned. But besides, there weren't any samples in those 79-80 Kurtis Blow singles, were there?

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 19:56 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I have no idea what Geir's cryptic post means, but if he is saying that "The Breaks" was not Kurtis's first single, he might have a point: "Christmas Rap" or whatever it was called came first, right?

chuck, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 20:08 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Kinda funny that "The Breaks" didn't incororporate any breaks (assuming it didn't) though, now that I think of it....

chuck, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 20:09 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I have come across a track called "Rappin'" or something, which is actually from 1979.

And I do not think there are any samples in it.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 20:31 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Speaking of "The Message", was Puff Daddy's sampling of "The Message" for his "Can't Nobody Hold Me Down" the first ever case of a hip-hop track being based on a sample from another hip-hop track?

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 20:37 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Not if "The Adventures of Grandmaster Flash on the Wheels of Steel" counts. (In fact, lots of early rap songs shared basslines. But again, those weren't samples, per se'.)

chuck, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 20:39 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

"I have come across a track called "Rappin'""

There's a very good film called Rappin', which has Dr Benton from ER in it. And people have rap offs. I need to get a copy of that.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 20:39 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

There is also a very bad film called "Breakin'" Oh, well, forget about it :)

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 20:42 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Drew, samplers started becoming affordable in the early to mid 1980's, say from about 1984. It wasn't until about 1985 that all my friends starting getting Akai s612 samplers, which got you control over just one sampler. Around 1987 you start hearing s900's, the powerful, tight multisamplers that figure in a lot of the records of that era.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 20:43 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

But the use of turntables started before the sampler became affordable. Plus a newly recorded repeat of a riff may also count as "sample" in creative terms I guess. Thus, "Rapper's Delight" is sampling "Good Times" even if the backing track was completely re-recorded for the Sugerhill Gang single.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 20:47 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Actually, the percussion at the start of 'Rapper's Delight' is actually a sample - a certain hip-hop producer recently told me that Bobbito Garcia recently put him up on it and played him the record.

Pikmin, Tuesday, 5 October 2004 22:36 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

There is also a very bad film called "Breakin'" Oh, well, forget about it :)
yeah, and its got ice cube in it. still not as bad as oh, "breakin' 2: electric boogaloo".

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 22:44 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Ice T!

oops (Oops), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 22:54 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I guess by samples I meant, DJ-ing. No turntables involved (unless the records they're spinning were creating by them).

I should've phrased this better.

David Allen (David Allen), Tuesday, 5 October 2004 23:59 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

er, thats who i meant. sorry! i have a cold today. all this mucous is getting in the way of my brain.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Wednesday, 6 October 2004 00:00 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

i guess you guys don't count gil scott heron?

chris andrews (fraew), Wednesday, 6 October 2004 00:08 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

and apparently cymande DID also have a song called "the message," on the same album as "bra." But maybe grandmaster flash just sampled its NAME, who knows?

I know, because I listened to the album the other day after reading this thread. The title is the only thing the two songs share.

Vic Funk, Thursday, 7 October 2004 10:39 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

the first official, if you could call it that, hip hop single was rappers delight which replayed chich's good times. this was pretty much how must records were made in early 80s hip hop - with a band either replaying a segment from a popular song or they were made similar to sparse soul/R&B/funk records of the time, a la the message. ie lots of synths, a drum machine, etc. this changed around 83/84 though in the main.

splooge (thesplooge), Thursday, 7 October 2004 11:15 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

god i sound like a hip hop 101 redux commentary there. argh.

splooge (thesplooge), Thursday, 7 October 2004 11:24 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

thirteen years pass...

https://olvidorecords.bandcamp.com/track/hip-hop-fox

reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 14 November 2017 02:23 (six days ago) Permalink


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