why is it important what the music of the working class is?

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and for that matter, what the hell is it?

ethan, Monday, 3 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

volk songs of the proles, of course. aka nate dogg.

it's important because people like to feel "down" with the "cause" and therefore need a suitable soundtrack to self-inflicted penitence.

jess, Monday, 3 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Whatever Heir Clear Channel deems.

bnw, Monday, 3 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The "working class" is a myth, a marketing scheme used to sell Budweiser and socialism. Around here, "working class" music (or, the music construction workers listen to) is 100% Mexican.

Kris, Monday, 3 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

a marketing scheme used to sell Budweiser and socialism

! I like the idea of Marx making brews.

What Kris said, in terms of local music I hear around here at construction sites. And classic rock and hip-hop. To refer back to the thread this spawned off from, they sure as hell ain't listening to Fishbone (if they're listening to Sublime, that's news to me too).

Ned Raggett, Monday, 3 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The search for working class music ignores the fact that 99% of the time music fans are going to have a false consciousness. Even those music fans who understand what false consciousness is. Exceptions? Maybe lesbian feminists, maybe some portion of the country audience... not many come to mind right now.

Tim, Monday, 3 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I am a music fan who doesn't understand what a false consciousness is. What is it?

Mark, Monday, 3 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

You know how you think you wake up from a dream and you walk around your room but everything seems really slow and weird and then you really wake up in a pool of vomit and blood?

Okay, so bad example.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 3 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Why, it's country music of course. Unfortunately, said "country" music ain't Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, or George Jones -- all three of them might just as well be Stravinsky, Prokofiev, and Shostakovich as far as the proles care.

Tadeusz Suchodolski, Monday, 3 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The record store near the house I grew up in was one of the best- stocked and diverse I've ever been to. It's closed now. That's where I got all of my Fall records. But 'working-class music' is whatever working-class people listen to. And from what I've seen, the percentages of music fans or niches vs. radio consumers isn't any different than anywhere else. I've never been able to get a handle on what working-class people listen to. And yes, many of them -do- know who Johnny Cash is, but a lot of industrial workers don't like country. I recommend a reading of _Rivethead_ - he talks about music a lot. I knew people like that when I was growing up.

Kerry, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It's important to know what we should play when we execute you

Luke, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Don't know what 'working-class' music is now (I suspect Shania Twain), but it's not important. The working classes don't really have a say in how society is run, so it's just a diversion.

dave q, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The working class adore Jay Z. They all pray for Aaliyah too.

turner, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

South London snapshot sez:

Streets of Tooting: So Solid Crew

St George's Hospital, Tooting (staff): Russell "The Voice" Watson

Thus is the gulf between different sorts of "working class" perpetuated.

Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Cf. Leon Trotsky -- Literature and Revolution. The working class has no culture of its own, he sez. Pre-revolution its time is consumed by the struggle for existance. Post revolution its time is consumed by the struggle to achieve a classless society -- the extent to which the working class produces its own culture is the extent to which it has ceased to exist as the proletariat as such ("those who have nothing to sell but their labor") and begun to liquidate into the classless fucha.

All of which is not to say that there isn't music which working-class people listen to, or music produced by those who come from a working class background. Although these are very often different things -- who, for example, is the demographic of The Fall?

But this is not culture in the "authenitic" sense -- produced both by and for a community.

This took place as a polemic against what would later be the Stalin/Lukacs/Cardew ProletKult school.

Sterling Clover, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, or George Jones. all three of them might just as well be Stravinsky, Prokofiev, and Shostakovich as far as the proles care.

Tad that's just not true. maybe for kids, but they're not old enough to remember jane's addiction much less george jones. anyone country fan who's old enough reveres those names like gods, in my experience.

why important? i dunno but it always seems like it is, doesn't it? what is't? yeah, shania works. just try turning on the radio sometime: that's it. (oh, everything except NPR or "public radio", you know, the "people's radio" that ME and YOU pay for, which plays nothing but classical music all fucking day long)

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Don't So Solid Crew and Russell "The Voice" Watson, in their different but parallel ways, do just that? Especially the former, if you're talking about art being produced by a community (Winstanley Est SW11) for its community (SW4/2/16/17/etc).

Mark E Smith is apparently a long-time mate of Pete Waterman and has free run of the PWL studios whenever he so wishes, tho' not many under 40 consume the Fall now apart from Peel adherents and old Northern Soul scallies ("Lie Dream of a Casino Soul" etc.).

Marcello Carlin, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

So solid != working class, but rather lumpen/petit-bourgeois. But yes, absolutely by & for. I'm dying to get my hands on their album.

Tracer: My local NPR plays jazz too, and sometimes blues.

Sterling Clover, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Does the working-class have a culture? I'd like to help you answer that, but I'm too busy struggling to answer that right now.

Wibbly Wobbly, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Marcello! Good to hear from you again!

I find So Solid Crew vile and repulsive in the extreme - they are the sound of an entire country and its national culture collapsing in on itself, proof positive to me that a once-great nation has been brutalised both by forces from outside, and by the aftereffects of post-war immigration, which has caused people from all backgrounds to feel uncertain, confused, and desperately angry.

Sadly, it is increasingly common to hear such music - which would not exist had post-war governments handled the immigration issue better and tried to protect the homogeneity and togetherness of the British people - blaring from sound systems even here in the Northamptonshire flatlands. I'm sure I heard a boy from the public school at Oundle - where the great Arthur Marshall was inspired to write his charming pastiches of girls' boarding school stories, so enticing and arousing they were - calling himself "Megaman" and rapping hyperactively the last time I was in the town. Times have changed, and not for the better.

I wonder how many other contributors agree with me?

Regards, Anthony.

Anthony Sanderson, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The "working class" is a racist myth, a marketing sceme used to sell Budweiser and socialism.

Kris, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Why is it important? Because its whats REAL. The music of the streets. What is NOT real is the music of baby boomer white college critics and british press. That shit is all watered down h-y-p-e. why is this hard to understand?

chaki, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Because it's bollocks?

the pinefox, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

if you say so. personally i think "strokes being the future of music" is bollocks. but whatever.

chaki, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

So do I.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh my god Robin you nearly had me fooled that time.

Tim, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I wonder how many other contributors agree with me?

Hopefully not many, Anthony: your post sounds like a polite paraphrase of a Neo-Nazi pamphlet. How I dearly hope there's a joke I'm missing.

Nitsuh, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Ahh, the confirmation shows up as I type.

Are we to expect a lot of these, ever since the Village Voice's Bubba Sparxxx review?

Nitsuh, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Well, I had a feeling it was after I'd read 'Anthony's' post on ILE.

Someone please tell me that Kris' post is also a joke. It only follows, then, that if you identify as 'working-class', you are a racist.

Kerry, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

99% of the time music fans are going to have a false consciousness. Even those music fans who understand what false consciousness is. Exceptions? Maybe lesbian feminists, maybe some portion of the country audience...

What in the world does this mean?

Phil, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Sanderson = the precise opposite of everything I think

Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Kerry, I'm not saying people who identify themselves as "working class", assuming these people still exist, are racist. The working class myth sold by union leaders and beer companies and rock critics (lunchpail n' hardhat, hard workin' American) is racist, considering the immense extent to which we rely on ununionized immigrant labor or asian factories for menial and industrial work. You see this all the time in sports; you never hear black players referred to as "lunchpail" guys, and you never hear white players referred to as "athletically gifted"...it's always the other way around, in accordance with the mythology. I was also referring to Anthony's post...nationalist, populist movements are almost always sold with "working class" signifiers (the Reagan democrats, Buchanan's "Pitchfork Army").

Kris, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Although Anthony bases his nationalism around middle-class signifiers and is a cunt and professional bigot. Ignore him.

Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Kris, thanks for explaining, but I still don't get it and it doesn't ring true at all.

Kerry, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

"The working class is a myth". "There is a myth about the working class". These are two different assertions.

Kerry, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Phil - I was stretching the definition of "false consciousness" too far maybe, but I meant that most people don't necessarily identify with music that speaks to their socioeconomic status, poor black kids listening to Jay-Z being the obvious example. Likewise, a lot music that paints itself as working class tends to have a middle class audience. The only strict exceptions to this that I am readily aware of are the lesbian feminists I know who listen almost solely to lesbian feminist singers because they identify with the political message (one told me that since she thought both musical taste and sexuality were socially constructed, there was no reason why she couldn't model both her sexuality and musical taste on her political ideals).

Tim, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I guess I find the term "false consciousness" to be a mismatch for what you're describing, since it implies a value judgment that's totally in opposition to my instinctive take on things (i.e. that music's power to help people identify with people of other socioeconomic status is more or less a positive thing). I also feel like it doesn't fully consider the historical element, i.e. the origins of genres like blues and jazz in homogenous cultures where the performers were indeed playing to their peers.

Phil, Tuesday, 4 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Other problem being that we one speaks of the "false consciousness of the working class" it already had a fairly precise and historically long-lived meaning so it gets confusing to use it to mean other things. One might speak to, for example, the "false consciousness" of those members fo the working class who identify themselves with the racist myth Kris speaks of.

Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 5 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Thread revival! We talked about America where nobody talks about class per-se. What about the UK, where everyone knows what class they are?

Sterling Clover, Monday, 10 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

If 'class' didn't exist, the English are the type of people who'd invent it

dave q, Monday, 10 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

But they are also the people for whom it has become consistently much less important these last 20-odd years.

Robin Carmody, Monday, 10 December 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

nine years pass...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9373000/9373158.stm

By Tom Bateman
Today Programme

The Beatles
If the Beatles were starting out now, would they make it in the music industry?

The majority of pop musicians are now privately educated, or went to stage school, according to Word magazine. Does the rise of Lily Allen, Florence Welch, Chris Martin and the like spell the end of working class pop?

It's 4pm at the central London studios of BBC Radio 1, now into its fifth decade of broadcasting new music to millions of young people across the UK.

In the basement on-air studio, a red "mic live" light illuminates and a computer screen lists the tracks due to play - from artists including Noah and the Whale, Tinie Tempah, Mumford & Sons and Katy B.

Four floors above, Radio 1's first-ever female DJ, Annie Nightingale, is in to prepare for her weekly show.

After 40 years with the station, she's well placed to remember the days that bands like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones and the Who were regulars on the playlist.

"When that whole kind of great big wave happened in the sixties you just sort of felt 'this is world changing, they're changing the world,'" she recalls.

"It was about working class people being able to do very well".

It is a well rehearsed narrative of the 1960s: The explosion into popular culture of apparent working class heroes - bands whose protagonists broke free from life at the bottom of the pile to challenge the established order.

In reality it was always more nuanced than that, as Nightingale says, "even then they had to pretend to be more working class than they actually were."

"A lot of them had fairly comfortable middle class backgrounds. John Lennon did and Pete Townsend. But not Roger Daltrey and not Keith Moon."

But while the reality may have differed from the image of 'authentic' working class boys made good, a new argument has been raging in the music world over the changing social dynamics of popular music.

An article in the December issue of music magazine The Word claimed the majority of UK chart acts were now either privately educated or from prestigious stage schools.

The magazine compared a Top 40 from a week in October 2010 to the same week in 1990, when it found nearly 80 per cent of artists were state school educated.

The 1980s pop producer Pete Waterman thinks the findings reveal an insidious truth about the way the strings are being pulled in the modern music industry.

Sitting beside his wall of Ivor Novello songwriting awards at his studios in the former London County Hall building, Waterman is vociferous.

"This has been a gripe I've had for over 20 years, and particularly right now. It's never been worse," he says.

"The major companies dominate and they see a CV and if you haven't got 96 O levels you ain't getting a job."

"In the old days you got a job in the music industry because you knew something about music. Now when they see your CV they don't take you unless you've been to university, full stop."

But does the same requirement for academic credentials dominate when it comes to bands trying to break through?

"I think that when all the A&R people wear Jack Wills clothes it tells you where they're going."

"It's become snobbish. It's become a snobbish culture."

Those who promote the argument that rock has gone 'posh' point to the emergence of a swathe of privately educated artists: Singer songwriter Laura Marling, and Lily Allen - daughter of actor Keith, who attended the prestigious boarding school Bedales.

The list continues with other popular acts; Florence Welch, Jack Penate, Jamie T, and Chris Martin, the Coldplay frontman who attended the independent boys school Sherborne.

Leading members of so-called 'Nu-folk' bands Noah & the Whale and Mumford & Sons went to St Paul's School in Barnes and King's College School, Wimbledon.

Noah and the Whale frontman Charlie Fink rejects the idea that a private school education means the art form suffers, saying bands should be able to have a voice "wherever you come from".

"I don't think with our songs where we come from really comes into it, because it's rare that we write about it," he says.

But the private-versus-state school debate may be the wrong prism through which to study the dynamics of the contemporary music industry.

In reality, many new acts are alumni of either the BRIT School in Croydon (importantly, a state-funded performing arts school) or of the X Factor.

And the "real" class heritage of big acts has been the subject of controversy for decades.

Joe Strummer, frontman of The Clash and an icon of the 1970s punk scene, was famously "outed" the product of a prestigious Surrey boarding school.

John Lennon, despite writing Working Class Hero, but was the product of a middle class upbringing and went to art school.

Others suggest the more fundamental truth is that guitar based rock is simply no longer commercially viable, allowing other genres to fill the gap.

Nightingale points to what she calls "one of the biggest musical explosions" of recent times: A development in urban music known as grime and dubstep.

Artists like Tinie Tempah, Tinchy Stryder, Professor Green are scoring regular chart hits with tracks that as Nightingale says relate to "nasty things happening on dark streets".

"I don't think they all came from privileged backgrounds and they are doing brilliantly well."

Do you think pop music has become too posh? Do you care where you pop stars are educated? Let us know via Twitter or Facebook or leave a comment using the form at the bottom of the page.

My son James Blunt, who is hugely appreciated worldwide, receives harsh criticism here and we have, rather sadly, been aware that it is because of his background. We are relieved that on the whole James's fan base take no notice of the critics.
Jane Blount, Hampshire

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 28 January 2011 13:29 (thirteen years ago) link

What a difference from US. I don't think US pop singers are necessarily posh, the audience seems to prefer that they be not so posh. Although maybe backing musicians and writers may be more posh than that, US society seems to have a problem with encouraging lower class kids to get music lessons.

You Feel Sorry For Yourself, Don't You (u s steel), Friday, 28 January 2011 13:36 (thirteen years ago) link

That doesn't sound very different from the UK

Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 28 January 2011 13:39 (thirteen years ago) link

No, but what I meant is, is it true that most UK pop stars nowadays are posh? In US, neglect of music lessons is tragic, many people have no respect for US' global contributions to pop music culture (jazz, folk)...

But if you think they are identical, please elaborate!

You Feel Sorry For Yourself, Don't You (u s steel), Friday, 28 January 2011 13:41 (thirteen years ago) link

Posh Rock

zvookster, Friday, 28 January 2011 13:44 (thirteen years ago) link

A lot of them are posh, sure, but being posh is still not considered "cool", either the "audience" doesn't like it or assumed they don't - e.g. the geezer who won X Factor who pretended he was just a window cleaner or sumthin' - and, yes, if you are privately educated you will almost certainly have access to a lot more in the way of music education than some kid in a comprehensive.

Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 28 January 2011 13:47 (thirteen years ago) link

didn't notice that posh rock thread

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 28 January 2011 14:08 (thirteen years ago) link

heh

Singer James Blunt's mother has defended her son against "harsh criticism" from British critics over his public school background.

Jane Blount contacted BBC Radio 4's Today programme after hearing a feature about an increase in pop stars who have been privately educated.

During the report, record producer Pete Waterman said the music industry had become "snobbish".

Mrs Blount said it was unfair Blunt was criticised "because of his background".

The feature mentioned the likes of Lily Allen, Florence Welch and Coldplay's Chris Martin, who all attended private schools.

However, Blunt who attended independent boarding school Elstree in Berkshire, Harrow School in Harrow on the Hill and the University of Bristol, was not mentioned.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

We are relieved that on the whole James's fan base take no notice of the critics”

End Quote Jane Blount

In an email to the programme, Mrs Blount said: "I was most interested to hear Pete Waterman's thoughts on public school rock stars.

"His attitude is reflected by most of the critics in the UK. My son James Blunt, who is hugely appreciated worldwide, receives harsh criticism here and we have, rather sadly, been aware that it is because of his background.

"We are relieved that on the whole James's fan base take no notice of the critics."

She went on to say that his latest album, Stay the Night, "is doing so well around the world".

Waterman, best known for his production team Stock, Aiken and Waterman - which worked with pop artists like Kylie Minogue in the 80s, said the argument that pop stars must now be educated was worse than it has ever been.

"The major companies dominate and they see a CV and if you haven't got 96 O levels, you ain't getting a job," he said.

"In the old days, you got a job in the music industry because you knew something about music. Now when they see your CV they don't take you unless you've been to university, full stop."

"It's become snobbish. It's become a snobbish culture."

Mrs Blount said she felt Waterman's argument was flawed.

"Peter Waterman contradicted himself finally as he said that no number of exams will make you popular or successful in the music world."

Today presenter Evan Davis told listeners: "We're very pleased that Mrs Blount listens to the programme."

Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 28 January 2011 14:10 (thirteen years ago) link


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