Cornelius Cardew - Visionary or Twat?

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Mark S said to me the other week that he reckoned that CC, had he lived, would’ve veered way to the right (cf Kuryokhin). He moved to Leytonstone to be near ver workers but didn’t like reggae – thought it was “inappropriate.” He was the Titus Salt of the post-Darmstadt world, surely? Also he was a dead ringer for Joe Strummer.

Marcello Carlin, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

he served anti-imperialism. i guess. his, uh, "thoughts" on 9/11 might have been as interesting as wacky stocky's.

jess, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Some Jamaicans though reggae and Rastafarianism were 'inappropriate' too. You know, "stay away from the baggawire man!"

dave q, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

yes, but cardew's fear/loathing of reggae was funny because when he did move to be with der salt of the eoith peoples (i.e. to play in his then shrinking, floudering spontaneous music ensembles [lower case, mind]) all these young, hip, mostly black kids wanted to listen to/play was reggae. can't you just imagine him waving his arms furiously/futily: "no, no! no, no!" rhythms = tool of imperialsm, ya see.

jess, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Actually, I agree with him. In fact, I think the Criminal Justice Bill was the most radical piece of revolutionary legislation ever, if repetitive beats were abolished it would free the hidden powers of everyone's currently too-regimented consciousness. Only timid 'reformers' opposed this brave step into an arrythmic world where anything could be free to happen!

dave q, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

It's all abt the music maaan (that is, I think parts of 'The Great Learning' and 'Treatise' are still v. v. groovy). CC by no means the only RCP dupe to ever say silly things abt kulcha and the common man - and utterly wrong tho' he was, I have some sympathy for his attempt to take classical music beyond the 'educated' middle classes (ie people who thought JUST like CC - oh, the contradictions are endless...)

I have a copy of CC's 'Scratch Music' bk which shamefully I have never read. Might now give it a go for further info...

Andrew L, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

oh,i agree andrew; what little i've heard of cardew's actual music has been groovy enough, but that didn't seem to be where our man carlin was coming from. at the same time, the dodgy theories don't help my opinion much, but it is all about the music. (check fer instance why i lurve the la monte axis but can't stand the "phoney numbers mysticism" schtick [as mistah sinkah once called it, i think.]) i suppose this would hold true for wagner, etc. if i gave a toss for anything written before 1976.

jess, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

CC wasn't in the RCP andrew, they are neo-leninists (were, I mean — RCP majordomo mick hume currently hurtling to the right also, pausing only to bundle over the next buncha apologetics for milosevic); CC was in the CPGB (ML), who were maoists (all nine of them). Combo of the erm dodginess of actually existing maoism (more right and than left IMO) with his class background (upper middle and then some: father a famous famous famous potter, of curious radical-revanchist stripe) = shift rightwards.

I don't KNOW this and it may be unfair. But basically he had moved far from the kids-lib childrens-crusade 60s radicalism of scratch music by the mid-70s. As is not unusual, he waved a highly idealised view of a farawary radicalised masses (= the chinese peasantry) to distance himself from having to interlock with actual local working-class politics, or any politics at all, frankly.

He's a VERY interesting figure, smart and inventive, and by no means unworthy of attention, even during rubbish People's Rockband era (actually possibly i think of him as the ghost of a possible disaster in ref.my own political development: ie i'm hard on him becuz i identify).

mark s, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Eh. I suspect he would have eventually moved to non-western music. Probably be doing peruvian folk tunes now, moved to the right yes, but in that sort of comfortable "enlightened" fair-trade-coffee kinda way.

Sterling Clover, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I disagree, Sterling: I think CC was totally inoculated against the "liberal" "centre" in *an*y form, and would have been dismissive of World Music as a strategy (he didn't quite overlap w. it as I recall — Sunny Ade's first tour the year of his death).

His isolation was already extreme, as of 1980, say.

mark s, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Um, help me here -- who exactly *is* Cornelius Cardew? Usual website for reference, anyone?

Ned Raggett, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Not crossover world music, tho -- straight up music. Like he'd have moved to a jungle & learned to play exactly what they did.

Sterling Clover, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

http://members.aol.com/johnnyX692/graphics/kiss.gif

DAMN YOU DIRTY DARMSTADTERS, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

(i can't believe my html worked.)

henny youngman, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Only timid 'reformers' opposed this brave step into an arrythmic world where anything could be free to happen!

Anything except, that is, a steady pulse, eh Dave? So it seems to be a rather constricting world after all. A world without music with a pulse = a shitty world.

Clarke B., Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

w/o a pulse is a pretty good description of CC's rockband

jess that was GENIUS!!

mark s, Monday, 26 November 2001 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

four years pass...
We'll be able to make a more informed answer to the question afterthis is released.

And on paperback - and make it cheap! And used!!

xyzzzz__ (jdesouza), Thursday, 7 September 2006 08:42 (fourteen years ago) link

he was the maoist, right?

a rapper singing about hos and bitches and money (Enrique), Thursday, 7 September 2006 08:46 (fourteen years ago) link

Yes, from what Mark says above.

He basically was in w/the Darmastadt crowd -- turns to left-wing activism, which includes turn to Maoism, i think -- renounces that stuff (graphic scores, etc.) and starts writing songs.

Interesting to contrast with Nono: one of the major figures to come out of Darmstadt (the only Cardew essay I happened to comes across ws as an added bonus to an old history of classical book in my local library where he enthuses about Boulez, Stockhausen and especially Nono) but who never lost it with his musical background/stayed the course, someone who kept writing so-called difficult, challenging music and doing it as protest pieces.

There are no books on him that i've seen tho'.

xyzzzz__ (jdesouza), Thursday, 7 September 2006 09:04 (fourteen years ago) link

He's always screwing up my Cornelius slsk searches.

the doaple gonger (nickalicious), Thursday, 7 September 2006 12:38 (fourteen years ago) link

well, he sounds like a twat there innit.

it's never been explained to me why maoists don't get a hard time when stalinists do.

a rapper singing about hos and bitches and money (Enrique), Thursday, 7 September 2006 13:21 (fourteen years ago) link

yeah, maoists get a free pass all the time, roffles.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 7 September 2006 13:39 (fourteen years ago) link

do you think ubuclassics would hype a book with a big pic of uncle joe on the cover like that?

a rapper singing about hos and bitches and money (Enrique), Thursday, 7 September 2006 13:42 (fourteen years ago) link

"hype," yeah ok whatever. what should they do then, downplay the fact that cardew was a maoist while publishing his works?

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 7 September 2006 13:58 (fourteen years ago) link

downplay != not put picture of mass-murdering tyrant on cover.

a rapper singing about hos and bitches and money (Enrique), Thursday, 7 September 2006 13:59 (fourteen years ago) link

i've only seen one edition of it in print, perhaps they just reproduced the original cover? i'm not really sure it matters since only the most hardcore maoist (ie. cardew himself) would not characterize mao as a "mass-murdering tyrant."

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 7 September 2006 14:04 (fourteen years ago) link

Cardew=dumbo socialist twat who happened to write some brilliant brilliant stuff.

trees (treesessplode), Thursday, 7 September 2006 14:08 (fourteen years ago) link

That PDF was excellent, thanks Stence

Nice pic of CC at the piano in the current Wire piece on AMM. (There is also a v. funny pic of an 80s AMM gig w/ the ultimate beardy chinscratcher in the front row of the audience)


Ward Fowler (Ward Fowler), Thursday, 7 September 2006 14:09 (fourteen years ago) link

Just reading that AMM primer -- v impressive beard!! (Incidentally, isn't it 'weird' to have one of these for AMM?! I don't think of AMM as a group who simply make records although of course that is totally the case at base level but its strange to not do more w/the politics of this group, its v unique relationship with jazz/classical/pop n'rock -- its a minefield to do so, but its probably necessary.)

Oh yes I forgot that I've read the Stockhausen essay and yeah its just bad bad, a species of misplaced populism. Good that its made available.

This reader draws from essays written at all points in Cardew's musical life so it will be interesting to look at all the shifts in thinking.

xyzzzz__ (jdesouza), Thursday, 7 September 2006 17:12 (fourteen years ago) link

i'm so glad to finally read this book. he's much more compelling than i would have thought, and i like the provocation of the way the stockhausen essay was done.

still never heard his people's rockband pieces, but listen to his later piano compositions fairly often and find them pretty lovely.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 7 September 2006 17:25 (fourteen years ago) link

would like to read this expensive book about the class struggle

been listening to the cortical foundation cd reissue of the great learning with the scratch orchestra a lot recently. if his later political songs were maybe a little too obvious, the great learning has the politics audibly pushing the form forward, it's great collective playing. & AMM's The Crypt is already in my box of CDs I'm bringing for my 20 hour drive up the Pacific Coast this weekend.

ubu has the Memorial Concert online.

milton parker (Jon L), Thursday, 7 September 2006 17:31 (fourteen years ago) link

Oh, and I forgot to say that John Tilbury is in the process of writing/publishing a biog of Cardew and it might be out in November (just saw a nov date for a concert/Tilbury lecture on Cardew at Goldsmiths College).

xyzzzz__ (jdesouza), Thursday, 7 September 2006 17:46 (fourteen years ago) link

five months pass...
Am listening to London 1969. Yeah, I can see why Steven Stapleton jonesed on this.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 9 February 2007 17:33 (fourteen years ago) link

yes. thank you mutant sounds.

milton parker (Jon L), Friday, 9 February 2007 19:08 (fourteen years ago) link

that one person clapping at the end of The Crypt is well classic

sexyDancer (sexyDancer), Friday, 9 February 2007 19:10 (fourteen years ago) link

Just feel that he was emblematic of how privilege seems to breed a strange kind of self-hate.

Had he had to struggle through Secondary-Modern/Apprenticeship/Production Line there's no way he would have become a Maoist. That sense of alienation/discovery-of-self through ideology wouldn't have been there.

If he had eventually moved to the right, well as somebody who gets to smell cutting fluid every day, it's kind of irrelevant. If the proletariat is only ever a theoretical construct, somebody who decides to alternate their relative position to you without ever engaging is pretty much a political non-entity.

That said, on a purely musical front, I'm intrigued and am keen to discover.

Phil Knight (PhilK), Friday, 9 February 2007 20:50 (fourteen years ago) link

man enrique was nutty.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 9 February 2007 21:06 (fourteen years ago) link

six years pass...

Saw this at the weekend, in the end so depressing how it all turned out. Let's call a spade a spade here, it was like he joined a cult. Keith Rowe and John Tilbury both "came back" and didn't lurch to the right but I don't think either of them were quite as fanatical as old Cor. Anyone read Tilbury's book on him?

Thomas K Amphong (Tom D.), Monday, 4 November 2013 14:00 (seven years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Mark S said to me the other week that he reckoned that CC, had he lived, would’ve veered way to the right

Meanwhile an old comrade of Cornelius (Visionary or Twat) Cardew's is currently making a fair few headlines

Thomas K Amphong (Tom D.), Monday, 25 November 2013 15:36 (seven years ago) link

Exactly what I was thinking.

CC's death in a hit-and-run "accident" remains unsolved.

I'm just saying.

Let's call a spade a spade here, it was like he joined a cult.

... and that was me on Cardew abt 3 wks ago

Thomas K Amphong (Tom D.), Monday, 25 November 2013 15:44 (seven years ago) link

so if I've got this right, Cardew and Comrade Bala were both CPE(ML), (not the same as CPGB(ML)), which became RCPB(ML), (& definitely is not RCP, which ran LM & is now effectively the Institute of Ideas/Spiked-online).

woof, Monday, 25 November 2013 15:46 (seven years ago) link

According to this site, RCPB(ML) was a breakaway group from CPE(ML). Cardew was a co-founder of RCPB(ML) and Balakrishnan remained with CPE(ML).

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Monday, 25 November 2013 15:58 (seven years ago) link

Anyway, I vote Twat.

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Monday, 25 November 2013 15:59 (seven years ago) link

Interesting 1992 article here.

http://www.marxists.org/history/erol/uk.hightide/cardew.htm

Deafening silence (DL), Monday, 25 November 2013 17:25 (seven years ago) link

don't know how accurate this is, or what spiked is:

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the_half_truths_and_wild_claims_behind_the_brixton_slave_story/14348#.UpZQG-KJ4ap

Ward Fowler, Wednesday, 27 November 2013 20:08 (seven years ago) link

by brendan o'neill

space bl00ps (NickB), Wednesday, 27 November 2013 20:12 (seven years ago) link

yay!

Noodle of the Vague family (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 27 November 2013 20:14 (seven years ago) link

he's basically saying that he doesn't know what the truth is but everybody else is almost certainly wrong about the whole thing

space bl00ps (NickB), Wednesday, 27 November 2013 20:24 (seven years ago) link

✔✓☑୰

woof, Thursday, 28 November 2013 12:39 (seven years ago) link

O'Neill is - it pains me to me say this - otm about the way the story has changed since the initial reports.

The Furedi piece is also actually very good on this, it's kind of a classic spiked move to stir up the fog of confusion and contradiction around an issue and then... actually I'm not sure what he's arguing for beyond that, other than he's against the media misappropriation of the term 'slavery' (which perhaps is fair enough? i dunno). O'Neill seemed to be in favour of leaving it to the police to sort out and then he spent most of the remainder of the article highlighting perceived police incompetence and backtracking.

space bl00ps (NickB), Thursday, 28 November 2013 12:43 (seven years ago) link

The Spiked lot are numbingly consistent in their views (down with liberals, reformers, do-gooders and victims, up with the average joe as long as he's thick-skinned and self-sufficient enough not to need any help from anybody ever) but not particularly good at translating those views into consistent articles because reality keeps getting in the way.

Deafening silence (DL), Thursday, 28 November 2013 12:53 (seven years ago) link

Furedi's railing against the media misappropriation of the term 'slavery' kind of falls down on the fact that he appears to think that there has only been one real historical form of slavery, and that was slavery in the americas in the 18th century? (and his definition of even that is a very very limited stereotype, of the male plantation slave in shackles)

thighs without a face (c sharp major), Thursday, 28 November 2013 13:04 (seven years ago) link

and it's only this apparent belief that domestic slavery and debt slavery have never existed that enables his ignorance of how the term 'slavery' has a broad use, and might be appropriate to cases that aren't this one -- well, that and using a dictionary definition like a first year undergraduate.

thighs without a face (c sharp major), Thursday, 28 November 2013 13:10 (seven years ago) link

There's something deeply cynical about the way he uses historical outrages only in order to disparage lesser outrages today. I'm uneasy with reusing the word "holocaust" in other contexts but I think "slavery" is flexible enough to withstand diverse applications.

Deafening silence (DL), Thursday, 28 November 2013 13:47 (seven years ago) link

xp or maybe not:

i'm not all that up on current usage of the term tbh, but that all sounds fair enough. i did get a vague sense that furedi is waiting to call out as racist anyone who would dare to assail his conception of a one true form of human slavery.

space bl00ps (NickB), Thursday, 28 November 2013 13:51 (seven years ago) link

two years pass...

Up to page 700-odd in Tilbury's biog., he's just about to cover Stockhausen Serves Imperialism. Crazy how these whimsical good-.natured bohos turned into icy Maoist robots... and so rapidly too.

Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:01 (five years ago) link

Sounds like you are enjoying yourself.

Can't remember reading a good review of this.

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:08 (five years ago) link

love this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm3SNk3ffoA

ogmor, Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:27 (five years ago) link

1071 pages

oppen gangland style (nakhchivan), Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:29 (five years ago) link

You only live once.

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:40 (five years ago) link

Pretty much my thinking, got the chance to read it, beats working etc. Tell you what though, it was all that Keith Rowe's fault... and Chairman Mao's.

Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:54 (five years ago) link

Hard not to snigger @ the Scratch Orchestra changing its name to the Red Flame Proletarian Propaganda Team, to name but one of the increasing absurdities as the page numbers pile up.

Anyway, it's not a three, it's a yogh. (Tom D.), Wednesday, 6 January 2016 11:56 (five years ago) link

Past the 850 mark and, in timely fashion, David Bowie has popped up, story recounted here.

Narayan Superman (Tom D.), Tuesday, 12 January 2016 18:58 (five years ago) link

950+. Cardew has just been to a Marxist-Leninist cultural festival in West Germany as one of three members of the Stalin Youth Group, he was 43 at the time.

Narayan Superman (Tom D.), Friday, 15 January 2016 23:21 (five years ago) link

lol

emil.y, Friday, 15 January 2016 23:30 (five years ago) link

hahahaha

Man Bun B (jim in glasgow), Friday, 15 January 2016 23:49 (five years ago) link

Figured out how to live.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 17 January 2016 10:43 (five years ago) link

man I really need this book

grant holt (prettylikealaindelon), Sunday, 17 January 2016 14:06 (five years ago) link

I'm more than happy with Tom D's updates tbh.

Fizzles, Sunday, 17 January 2016 14:52 (five years ago) link

Finished. You'll thank me for it one day. The last third was a long grind, or a Long March.

The Return of the Thin White Pope (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 21:40 (five years ago) link

great updates, "Red Flame Proletarian Propaganda Team" pretty much ended me.

Cornelius Pardew (jim in glasgow), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 21:42 (five years ago) link

In honour of the CPGB(ML)'s Progressive Cultural Association's Punk Rock Is Fascist! slogan, I'm working on a punk version of one of Cardew's later I HEART MAO pieces. To be fair, the comrades were never entirely convinced of the wisdom of the Punk Rock Is Fascist! campaign, apart from Cardew (of course) and, er, John Tilbury!

Some stuff for you rock fans out there:

The Scratch Orchestra apparently did a 45 minute version of "Sister Ray" at a concert in '69/'70 - even longer than the Velvets were doing themselves at the time. (Also, in a footnote earlier in the book, Tilbury attributes the composition of the music in "Sister Ray" solely to John Cale - which seems very bourgeois of him.)

Cardew supposedly 'jammed' onstage with Tangerine Dream in Berlin in 1973, though Tilbury speculates that it might have been with Agitation Free instead.

The Return of the Thin White Pope (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 21:58 (five years ago) link

want the book but its like 80$ on amazon.

Option ARMs and de Man (s.clover), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 22:20 (five years ago) link

i hunted down some of his later stuff that was performed at his memorial, i think? and i liked it quite a bit

Option ARMs and de Man (s.clover), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 22:22 (five years ago) link

I am fond of some of the later piano pieces, but the few proletarian rock songs I've heard are dreadful.

The Return of the Thin White Pope (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 January 2016 23:33 (five years ago) link

Was just saying to a friend over the weekend the only biog I remember reading in the last 10 years was Jean Genet by Edmund White.

Since then I have read about two biogs I want to read and this is one of them. Well done for finishing it.

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 21 January 2016 09:08 (five years ago) link

Stupidly, I've started reading the BS Johnson biog, having promised myself only to read novels for the foreseeable future.

The Return of the Thin White Pope (Tom D.), Thursday, 21 January 2016 12:01 (five years ago) link

I love Treatise and like some of his later piano music but I'm only now just listening to the album: 'Consciously', wow lol, sounds like a parody.

grant holt (prettylikealaindelon), Thursday, 21 January 2016 13:16 (five years ago) link

It's hilarious but, if you excuse the pun, not consciously so.

The Return of the Thin White Pope (Tom D.), Thursday, 21 January 2016 13:23 (five years ago) link

five years pass...

cute

Left, Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:07 (two weeks ago) link

"Consciously" sounds like the worst imaginable result of Art Bears trying to go commercial.

Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:23 (two weeks ago) link

I've got to imagine "condescension" wasn't in his lexicon.

Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:25 (two weeks ago) link

From the "Bits of songs that sound like bits of other songs" thread:

Chorus of "Smash the Social Contract" by Cornelius Cardew and chorus of "Funky Gibbon" by the Goodies.

― Saturated with working class intelligence and not afraid to show it (Tom D.), Tuesday, December 3, 2013 11:44 AM (seven years ago) bookmarkflaglink

Was this ever resolved? So basically the Goodies mowed CC down on their trusty trandem, outraged at his blatant looting of their hit single, all as part of a fiendish plot to seize the means of black pudding production from the proletariat? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Best regards, HM Revenue & Customs (Matt #2), Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:33 (two weeks ago) link

this stuff is endlessly fascinating to me in the ways it both fails and sort-of succeeds at pop. catchy, kitschy, hilarious and tragic all at once
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXEDZy4Z8os

Left, Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:35 (two weeks ago) link

(xp) As I think I said on this thread or some other thread, Dave McRae from Matching Mole (of 'Little Red Record' er, fame) played on (arranged?) the Goodies records, and I can very well imagine him being familiar with Cardew's work - so maybe the Goodies ripped off Cardew?

Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:37 (two weeks ago) link

The songs are terrible but, tbf to Cardew, he was expected to churn out dozens of musical settings of the proclamations and thoughts of Hardial Bains as his contribution to the victory of the proletariat. Now, if only he'd realized that "Mouldy Old Dough" could have been re-written as "Hardial Bains".

Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 15:47 (two weeks ago) link

the last time we discussed this (on a monty python thread, to morbs's huge irritation lol) i raised the possiblity that this shared tune has been repurposed from some common-property chant that pre-exists both: i referred to it as the "vote vote vote for nigel barton" song -- apparently in the belief that this 1965 dennis potter play includes this line being chanted (presumably by barton's political followers?) to this tune

obviously it would fit well, but does this actually happen? i was very confident previously but i now have no idea why

mark s, Saturday, 5 June 2021 16:20 (two weeks ago) link

Oh yes, I remember that discussion.

Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 16:25 (two weeks ago) link

first appearance also of matt #2's mysterious-tricycle solution to the cardew hit-and-run

mark s, Saturday, 5 June 2021 16:28 (two weeks ago) link

xps would have helped if he was open to actually learning anything from actual (black) popular music & its connection with already existing struggles instead of trying to reinvent the wheel like a typical vanguardist. he’s obviously a unique figure but in that & so many other ways (the confused anti-imperialism, class guilt, hopeless attempts at populism) he feels like such a familiar “type” on the UK left, he’s painful & fascinating to hear/read/read about

Left, Saturday, 5 June 2021 16:29 (two weeks ago) link

This is quite a light hearted encounter between Cardew and some stuffy Radio 3 guy (from 1972 probably?) which shows he hadn't quite lost his sense of humour yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oksUcVauHXM

Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 16:38 (two weeks ago) link

the last time we discussed this (on a monty python thread, to morbs's huge irritation lol) i raised the possiblity that this shared tune has been repurposed from some common-property chant that pre-exists both: i referred to it as the "vote vote vote for nigel barton"

Yeah, this.
There's an episode of "the odd couple" where tony randall reminisces about his time in the army and sings "let's hit hitler where he lives" to this tune.
I forget what the original is but p. sure it's a British march.

Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Saturday, 5 June 2021 17:08 (two weeks ago) link

I forget what the original is

This is gonna drive me nuts all day

Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Saturday, 5 June 2021 17:17 (two weeks ago) link

I think there might be a scene in "Inherit the wind" which uses it also

Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Saturday, 5 June 2021 17:35 (two weeks ago) link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramp!_Tramp!_Tramp!

Think this is the original.

joni mitchell jarre (anagram), Saturday, 5 June 2021 20:19 (two weeks ago) link

I think you're right but, just to complicate matters further, I think this also rips off "Tramp! Tramp! Tramp" ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viXBxuSSS6s

Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 21:04 (two weeks ago) link

... not a Cornelius Cardew composition.

Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Saturday, 5 June 2021 21:05 (two weeks ago) link


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