Prog-Rock Politics

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Check out this customer review of Paul Stump - The Music's All That Matters : A History Of Progressive Rock.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0704380366/qid=1081997031/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/102-3542073-7427317?v=glance&s=books

The Music's All That Matters: A History of Progressive Rock
by Paul Stump

Is the music all that matters?, March 14, 2004
Reviewer: maiala

To have a better understanding of this book one must take into account its author's ideology. As pointed out by Edward Macan (whose musicological and sociological analysis is much more superior to Stump's), the ranks of music critics were dominated by neo-Marxists. That explains Stump's preferences and prejudices. Henry Cow and Soft Machine get his praise because of their ideological beliefs rather than their artistic merits (in the long list of acknowledgments, he thanks Chris Cutler for "intellectual inspiration"). Accordingly, Stump's sarcasm towards Yes, ELP, Jethro Tull, etc., is focused mainly on their decadence, not their music. But Stump's objectivity in his venom distribution is skewed too - for example, his bourgeois ways notwithstanding, Bill Bruford (as well as all Stump's interviewees) gets a much better treatment than other members of Yes. Kind of a payback.
Writing a history of progressive rock is quite an ambitious undertaking, and it's hard to expect one person to know everything about the multitude of bands and musicians. Claiming encyclopedic knowledge, Stump can't leave out less-popular-yet-major players. Here Stump's pretense is apparent, as his familiarity with those bands is rather minimal in many instances. Take Gentle Giant. Stump's upcoming book implies that he must be a great scholar of their work, but his overview of the group looks more like a compilation of opinions. At the very first mention, he defines them as a part of "by far the more commercially successful form of Progressive rock" (page 97). This statement should not even be contested because of its obvious fallacy. The fact alone that one of their best records, In a Glass House, had never been released in the U.S. as too "uncommercial" leaves no uncertainty about their moneymaking success. Their statement about "blatant commercialism", ridiculed by Stump, really reflects their approach towards music. Stump repeats every silly epithet used by critics (except for "pretentious") and then refers to Jan-Paul van Spaendonck whose opinion he evidently respects and whose high praise is in total contradiction with Stump's pearls. This dualism reveals his total lack of knowledge of the subject. He is tempted to side with the majority, but few respected voices confuse him. So it came out pretty confusing and quite pathetic too.
Stump's interpretation and philosophizing of the social side of the movement is rooted in his ideology. It's full of customary Marxist truisms, and is pretty shallow and weak.
On a minor note, Stump's universally praised vocabulary is an intellectual show-off, a sign of self-infatuation, typical for unrecognized self-achievers. A standout evidence of that is his comparison between prog "big guns" and "ascetic and virtuous Stakhanovites" (page 12). For the record, the Stakhanovites were super-productive workers during the industrial build-up in the Soviet Union in the '30s. These people were neither ascetic nor virtuous. Their only virtue was their productivity. Otherwise, they were quite arrogant because they were well-paid (i.e. rich) and famous. Stump's desire to impress results in his attempts for neologisms and improper use of words ("atavism" and "lumpen" come to mind) as he tries to impose his "intellectual superiority".
All in all, ignore Stump's ideological assault and don't succumb to his pseudo-intellectual pressure, and you have a good historical overview of progressive rock although his pretentious style really spoils it.


My question is do you agree with this guy that progs bands got/get positive/negative reviews because "the ranks of music critics were dominated by neo-Marxists. " ?

Also feel free to discuss anything socio-political about prog rock.

Cheers,
Raindancer.

Raindancer, Thursday, 15 April 2004 01:53 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Prog books have a reputation for being bizarrely bad, just like
prog compilations.

As far as socio-politics, I was never interested in the political
views of musicians, but Jethro Tull's lyrics could be quite effective
anti-establishment tracts.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 15 April 2004 05:42 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I have that Stump book, and it's not bad.

The review excerpted above I suppose is just proof that boring ideologues a/ can be fans of any music genre and b/ read their own meaning into any text.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 15 April 2004 07:00 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Re-reading the excerpt, I think I do detect a hint of "that fux0r dissed my favourite band!!!!1"

Pashmina (Pashmina), Thursday, 15 April 2004 07:02 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Noam Chomsky luvs prog-rock.

belcher, Thursday, 15 April 2004 07:14 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

hey norman, i've email you -- good news.

doomiexx, Thursday, 15 April 2004 07:44 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

As pointed out by Edward Macan (whose musicological and sociological analysis is much more superior to Stump's)

I think this quote undermines any pretensions the reviewer has to intellectually challenging Mr Stump. As Pashmina said, s/he's just peeved cos he likes Soft Machine better than ELP.

noodle vague (noodle vague), Thursday, 15 April 2004 10:33 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

'My question is do you agree with this guy that progs bands got/get positive/negative reviews because "the ranks of music critics were dominated by neo-STONERS. " ?'

Question fixed.

earlnash, Thursday, 15 April 2004 10:55 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Hold on tho, what exactly were Soft Machine's "ideological beliefs"? Remember in those days, Robert Wyatt was still writing songs about ladies' underwear and not East Timor.

Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 15 April 2004 11:30 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

maybe it was in code.

el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Thursday, 15 April 2004 12:56 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Hmm, what "ideology" could I get out of prog-rock? Libertarianism, Jethro Tull.

ELP and Crimson seemed kind of Tory.

Yes--I can discern not only no ideology but no ideas of any kind. Nice sounds, though.

I can kinda see the fellow's point, though. Henry Cow and the Cambridge school of proggers were pretty different from Yes/ELP/Tull. Henry Cow comes straight out of Zappa, Beefheart, various serialists and so forth. So I think they were definitely smarter. So I guess they were a species of English Marxism? I dunno. It's all rather boring to me. At least Kevin Ayers wrote extensively about drinking lots of wine in the south of France, and Robert Wyatt covered Chic...whereas Peter Gabriel thought he was getting funky by hiring the Memphis Horns. Yawn. It took Eno and Roxy to blow away all that bad air out of the "progressive" rock movement and give it back the people, as it were, so I hardly see how the Marxist ideals of either the players or the reviewers really means anything in the long run. Not that I'm not in agreement with Marx on several rather big issues...

eddie hurt (ddduncan), Thursday, 15 April 2004 22:00 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

It's been oft-stated that Robert Fripp is a Tory but is there really any conclusive evidence of this? Stodgy and immersed in a conservative 19th century Romanticist myth he is (re: his ceaseless whining about the travails of the cult of the "professional, virtuoso" musician), but I've never read anything by him that suggests an empathy with Thatcherite policies. His slag wife, on the other hand....

kjoerup, Thursday, 15 April 2004 22:15 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i know Fripp's home town (Wimborne Minster, Dorset) and most people there are Tories but they tend to lean more towards romantic Toryism than Thatcherism, which is more a phenomenon of south-east England. so it's quite conceivable that he could be a Tory without being a Thatcherite, and in fact be the sort of Tory who sees Thatcherism as philistine, anti-intellectual, overtly cultural proletarianising etc - many people from Wimborne and other parts of Dorset are that sort of Tory, trust me on that.

phoebe dinsmore's bastard nephew (robin carmody), Thursday, 15 April 2004 22:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Interesting: old England, old school Tory. Robin Carmody to thread now!

kjoerup, Thursday, 15 April 2004 22:42 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Hold on tho, what exactly were Soft Machine's "ideological beliefs"? Remember in those days, Robert Wyatt was still writing songs about ladies' underwear and not East Timor.

Well, maybe not while he was in Soft Machine--but not too far off, either. Wyatt's ideologies were pretty overt by Matching Mole's Little Red Records (e.g. "Righteous Rhumba", "Gloria Gloom", "God Song").

Joe (Joe), Thursday, 15 April 2004 22:47 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Wyatt's ideologies

Leftist, I should say

Joe (Joe), Thursday, 15 April 2004 22:54 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

the Cambridge school of proggers

Canterbury?

Joe (Joe), Thursday, 15 April 2004 23:00 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

The irony perhaps being that Robert Fripp produced said album? (Matching Mole's 'Little Red Record'.)

This all smacks of a revisionist argument. Inasmuch as anyone at the time was classifying things by "ideology" (they weren't), all you really had, to the (smallish) extent it was even mulled over was UFO Club/International Times Young and Beautiful Progressive-leaning Hippies vs. the Old Guard (Harold Wilson and Cliff Richard and the like). The only explicitly Marxist - or, more specifically, Maoist - rumblings I can recall from the time (not that I was there) would be from AMM - and even that was more Cornelius Cardew than the rest of the group. True, this collectivist/ideological notion eventually did go into the heads of people like Robert Wyatt and the Henry Cow crowd, but these notions are not even explicitly addressed until later (after progressive rock's heyday). Henry Cow's "Marxist" lp, 'In Praise of Learning' came out in 1975; Wyatt really doesn't become an all-out Marxist on record until his Rough Trade period during the post-punk era, a time when other former "Canterbury"-associated people like This Heat and (ex-Henry Cow) Art Bears also exist.

kjoerup, Thursday, 15 April 2004 23:04 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

These are mountains that should be molehills.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Thursday, 15 April 2004 23:56 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

ilx: overthinking things since 2001

el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Friday, 16 April 2004 01:18 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Yeah, sorry, "Canterbury" not "Cambridge." Been listenin' to too much Syd Barrett and Soft Boys lately, no doubt.

Very informative comments above about the varities of English Toryism, thanks!

eddie hurt (ddduncan), Friday, 16 April 2004 01:20 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

These are mountains that should be molehills.

-- Squirrel_Police (goblinatri...), April 16th, 2004.

Maybe they should be, maybe they shouldn't, but these things matter in Britain

de, Friday, 16 April 2004 01:26 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Exactly. They are important in a small island whose inflated
sense of importance is about 100 years out-of-date.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 16 April 2004 01:28 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Ha ha you really are a waste of protein, SP!!

Rock On.

de, Friday, 16 April 2004 01:32 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Jacques Lacan let me rock you; let me rock you Jacques Lacan....

Evanston Wade (EWW), Friday, 16 April 2004 01:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Oh btw I'll take Britain's current position and level of importance in the world over its status and activities 100 years ago every time.
You're an American right? Currently fucking up Iraq? Argument over.

Btw 'small island'?? Do you realise Britain is the 6th largest island on the globe? Out of tens of thousands? You really are witless aint ya?

de, Friday, 16 April 2004 01:47 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

stay down, man. stay down.

el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Friday, 16 April 2004 02:28 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Well I'm not British and I find this topic of interest. If you couldn't care less about it, Squirrel, why bother "contributing" to the thread at all?

Why have some people on ILM become so hostile lately?

kjoerup, Friday, 16 April 2004 02:58 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Well, maybe not while he was in Soft Machine--but not too far off, either. Wyatt's ideologies were pretty overt by Matching Mole's Little Red Records (e.g. "Righteous Rhumba", "Gloria Gloom", "God Song").

They weren't overt, Wyatt was not a confirmed Marxist until after the first part of his solo career was over, as you point out. He was kind of dipping his toe in the waters with Matching Mole and was more modishly lefty, "Little Red Record" was more of a cute joke than a serious political statement.

The only explicitly Marxist - or, more specifically, Maoist - rumblings I can recall from the time (not that I was there) would be from AMM - and even that was more Cornelius Cardew than the rest of the group.

Not strictly true as Keith Rowe was involved in the same political group as Cardew and gave up playing "elitist" music in AMM to play dreadful "workers'" music alonside Cardew. Silly boy!

Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 16 April 2004 08:43 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Now seems like a good time to mention Bad Company again

dave q, Friday, 16 April 2004 15:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I can conirm that the book by Paul Stump is ndeed a fine book, and it doesnt concentrate on the big selling bands. Which is probably what upsets the amazon customer.

Now who is Edward Macan?

Victor Meldrum, Friday, 16 April 2004 15:51 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I think Edward Macan wrote another less well-known book abt progressive music. There was yet another book about the same subject that came out at the same time that was also OK, I forget the author or title. There was a good quote from IIRC pete sinfield in the stump book, about various progressive musicians' political views, I'll try and find it.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 16 April 2004 15:54 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

still the best prog site i've ever seen on the web:


http://gnosis2000.net/

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I like this one best:

http://www.progressiveears.com

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:10 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

HA, both my albums are rated on gnosis (haha, among s.th like 15000000000 other privately pressed prog CDs), I got all excited when someone rated them both at "10", till I realised that's like half marks!! Still, better average marks than some albums I really like!!

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:15 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I like Gnosis for pages like this:

http://gnosis2000.net/reviews/magma.htm


and those Jestersaurus web-zines that they did for a while (and which are on the site) are great. really informative stuff. and some of the reviews are great! really funny stuff.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:23 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i will bookmark that progressive ears site, Pashmina. thanks.

scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:26 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

http://www.gepr.net/ is excellent.

Eve Atley (Kilbey1), Friday, 16 April 2004 16:27 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

It is "small" (compared to other countries) and it is an island so the term
"small island" is perfectly appropriate. Also, it's No. 7, Mr. Douchebag.
And blaming me for the Iraqi fuckup (which I have never supported in
any way shape, or form) is like attacking a random Rwandan for
supporting genocide.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 16 April 2004 21:44 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Whoops, I miscounted, it's no. 8 here the list
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001783.html


Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Friday, 16 April 2004 21:46 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

http://www.progreviews.com

Good site for multiple stances on the same albums - just wish they updated more often. (oh and I have reviews there too)

Gnosis is a great resource - especially check Eric Lumbleau and Craig Shropshire if you're into prog on the avant end.

dleone (dleone), Friday, 16 April 2004 21:49 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I like progreviews v. much, the multiple review format especially.

btw, just clicking through on some of these sites led me to this non-sequitous discovery and I can't think of any other thread to post it to, so:

Maestro exists because the Gravitars say it must.

"Technology has now advanced far enough for Maestro to exist," Mike Oldfield.

http://www.mikeoldfield.com/flash/maestro.html

check out the screenshots, I am losing my mind

(Jon L), Friday, 16 April 2004 22:07 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

And blaming me for the Iraqi fuckup (which I have never supported in
any way shape, or form) is like attacking a random Rwandan for
supporting genocide

or blaming a random a random Brit for belonging to a small island whose inflated
sense of importance is about 100 years out-of-date
?

Inconsistency is such a useful thing.

noodle vague (noodle vague), Friday, 16 April 2004 22:11 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

SP - Ah I see Honshu has been bumped up the list one. You get that.
But nothing else. You write a continuing stream of crap, and I should have obeyed the advice of Tep:

Why do people still respond to Squirrel Police?
-- Tep (te...), April 9th, 2004.

More fool me. But you are the worst arsehole on this forum.

PS The adjective qualifies the noun you emptyheaded piece of shit!

de, Friday, 16 April 2004 22:17 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Noodle I regretfully apologize that this nonesense is even slightly steering the thread away from its stated theme; I just want to respond to that bit about Iraq. I meant that if SP was defining Britain's 'importance' as hbeing master of the world/economic powerhouse/having fingers in every pie as it did in 1904, as he clearly was, then I was replying that if this was 'importance' I was very glad and relieved that I did not live in a country like that today. He however does, so he knows 'first-hand' what I read about in a history book. My point was if this was so crucial to him, well he shouldn't be proud of it. Britain is 'important' today for it's technology, science, pop music, society, arts, etc. not for invading foreign lands and butchering indigenous peoples (which SP professes to care about, viz. his Native Americans thread.) His ideas about 'importance' are bizarre and insulting, but I refer you to Tep's post again. The guy is a desperate troll, pure and simple.

de, Friday, 16 April 2004 22:24 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I understood yr point, de, I was just pointing out to SP that he has a one-sided notion of stereotyping.

noodle vague (noodle vague), Friday, 16 April 2004 22:26 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

To clarify, I am not, in any way, holding American posters responsible for its government's foreign policy. I am merely pointing out that USA 2004 = Britain 1904, with all the 'importance' and 'inflated self-importance' associated with hegenomic empire. What USA is doing is Iraq, indeed Afghanistan is *precisely* the kind of actions Britain was carrying out at that time. Yes there are contrasts, no need to elaborate now, I'm just happy that Britain neither has the opportunity, status, or inclination to behave that way anymore, and before anyone points out Iraq, yes wee are party to the whole business, but clearly not the prime movers. Sad to say it, but our government has no ideology in regard to this, only one of subservience to the USA.

x-post noodle okay that's it sorry. I am enjoying reading this thread, which is how I got myself onto it in the first place.

de, Friday, 16 April 2004 22:37 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

What do you think of this?

Web fans boost Marillion single

Rock band Marillion look poised to enter the UK top five with their new single after a sustained campaign among fans on their website.
Retailer HMV's online arm has received a record 4,400 pre-orders for the song You're Gone, which is out on Monday.

It could become their biggest hit since Kayleigh, a number two success in 1985, according to HMV.

Marillion singer Steve Hogarth urged fans to buy at least three copies of the single to get it into the top 10.

You could dig deep, get into eight quid's worth of debt and buy three copies or more of our single

Steve Hogarth
On the band's website, Hogarth said: "By our calculations, in the current UK single market, if you go out and buy one single each, we'll go top 40. If you go out and buy two versions, we'll go top 20.

"If, however, you'd like to make an old dog very happy, you could dig deep, get into eight quid's worth of debt and buy three copies or more of our single.

"We'd almost certainly go top 10 and I'd have my first ever top 10 single just before my 45th birthday!"

The song is available on two CD singles and a DVD single with a combined retail cost of almost £8.

'Loyal support'

Marillion spokeswoman Lucy Jordache said: "Whatever chart position You're Gone achieves will largely due to the fans' loyal support of the band.

"We hope that this will enable other people to hear the music and get into the band."

The band's fans are renowned for their loyalty. In 1997 they raised $60,000 (£32,000) to help finance a North American tour.

Marillion were among the first to embrace the internet as a means of marketing and selling their records, and communicating with fans.

HMV spokesman Gennaro Castaldo said the campaign had led to the most orders on its retail website since its launch in 1997, beating the previous best of 4,000 for the Stereophonics' Moviestar in February.

Raindancer, Friday, 16 April 2004 22:40 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Why would they care about getting a Top 5 single? Do they imagine it will gain them 1 new fan?

Anyway, I lost interest when Fish left.

noodle vague (noodle vague), Friday, 16 April 2004 22:43 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Didn't someone else do this to get a top ten hit last year?
Presumably if they get a top 5 hit, it will at least get one play on radio on the chart rundown, and maybe on Radio 2. This should lead to increased album sales. And some press publicity "ohh look at what marillion did to get a hit" etc.
Shame they're shit really.

Wonder if Status Quo will try the same tactic.

Raindancer, Saturday, 17 April 2004 00:19 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

(sigh) So, anyway, I thought it was Tilbury and not Rowe who went off to play "worker's music" with Cardew, but maybe I'm wrong. Did the Keith Tippet Group/Centipede/Amazing Band/etc. collective(s) ever issue a decidedly political (Marxist) stance? Not sure. And ... oh, fuck it. Never mind.

kjoerup, Saturday, 17 April 2004 00:20 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

de, oops, tep, this is great, I have my own little "hate club."
I wish I had a camera right now.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Saturday, 17 April 2004 04:42 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

>or blaming a random a random Brit for belonging to a small island whose inflated
>sense of importance is about 100 years out-of-date?

>Inconsistency is such a useful thing.

Actually, I haven't blamed de or accused him of anything. I did call him
Mr. Douche Bag, but that's an honorific around these here parts. I simply
pointed out that Britain is an amusing little shithole, although no doubt there are
many sterling examples of humanity floating around on the surface.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Saturday, 17 April 2004 04:52 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

>Why do people still respond to Squirrel Police?
-- Tep (te...), April 9th, 2004.
>More fool me. But you are the worst arsehole on this forum.

Now TEP's an areshole. The grammar police takes no prisoners,
I see.

Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Saturday, 17 April 2004 04:53 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

............................................

I give up.

Yet another potentially interesting ILM thread flushed down the toilet by you know who. (sigh)

kjoerup, Saturday, 17 April 2004 06:55 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I just discoveed SP's like twenty one or something....so we can put all this down to youthful high spirits, hormones etc. and carry right on. SP you've had your jollies twice now ('I simply
pointed out that Britain is an amusing little shithole' indeed!), and I'm trying to see you as the young 'Andrew Dice Clay' of ilx or something, so...that's it now. Let's let it go.

de, Saturday, 17 April 2004 12:05 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Can anyone recommend some good books on Progressive Rock/Psychedelia and even Krautrock?

Raindancer, Saturday, 17 April 2004 18:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I like Macan's book (Rocking the Classics) the most. Some of his arguments I disagree with and he does get a bit carried away at times (e.g., dissecting the lyrics to ELP's "Tarkus"), but it's generally intelligently written and genuinely enthusiastic but not fanboy-ish. I hate to say, but I didn't really care for Stump's book. Far from awful, but the writing style is a bit 'too cool for school' for my tastes. Bradley Smith's "Billboard's Guide to Progressive Music" (or something like that), on the other hand, is pretty awful, avoid. Bill Martin's book on Yes/Marxist philosophy (to bring this thread full circle)...ha ha ha.

...And there is no good book on Krautrock. ;)

Joe (Joe), Saturday, 17 April 2004 21:38 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I'm looking for a book or two to buy for a Prog Rock fan for his birthday; he's a big reader and a scholarly type. I'm toying right now with Rocking the Classics, and the Progressive Rock Files. I'm also considering The Music's All That Matters, and Progressive Rock Reconsidered. If I had to pick just 2, what would it be?

Thanks!

Eve Atley (Kilbey1), Tuesday, 20 April 2004 14:41 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Just read that Paul Stump book I ordered from Amazon. Pete Sinfield says Robert Fripp did not vote for margeret thatcher. It was the likes of Jimmy Page who did, but purely for tax reasons not because they're actual tories.

Whats the story behind Toyal Wilcox's right wing leanings?

Raindancer, Monday, 26 April 2004 13:09 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Don't know where that Fripp is a Tory stuff came from.

Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 26 April 2004 13:13 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Me neither. Presumably it's something to do with his wife. But I have no idea whats she's said or when she's said it.

Raindancer, Monday, 26 April 2004 13:49 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

As I recall (IE possibly i am wrong) she complained in a nimby-ish way about "asylum seekers" being housed near where she live/d/s.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 26 April 2004 14:16 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Fripp did not vote for margeret thatcher. It was the likes of Jimmy Page who did, but purely for tax reasons not because they're actual tories.

P and indeed shaw! what does this mean?

NRQ (Enrique), Monday, 26 April 2004 14:59 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

It means that income tax for the very rich in the 1970s was a lot lower under the tories than under labour.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:01 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

yeah, ie voting tory makes you a tory. voting to avoid paying tax is tory. not that i enjoy paying tax.

ENRQ (Enrique), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:06 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I actually enjoy paying it, I just hate spending time calculating how much I owe, when I sh/c/ould be working at fixing stuff ie EARNING A LIVING.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Monday, 26 April 2004 15:08 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

one month passes...
whoever it was upthread who said "Robin Carmody to thread now!" was in fact replying to one of Robin Carmody's postings. oh i was a coward, those strange and distant days of April 2004.

is anyone else here aware of the musical tastes of a cohort of John Tyndall (notorious British neo-Nazi leader) named Andrew Bower?

robin carmody (robin carmody), Sunday, 6 June 2004 01:41 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

No. Please explain(Never heard of either person btw)

Raindancer, Sunday, 6 June 2004 13:20 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Bower is a huge Yes / pre-'78 Genesis / ELP / Tangerine Dream fan. some would use this fact to strengthen their view that prog is the only form of rock music acceptable to unapologetic racists; i couldn't possibly comment ...

robin carmody (robin carmody), Sunday, 6 June 2004 13:35 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

I could: Sham 69? Clapton? Outkast?

Actually, aren't we all full of contradictions, meaning that a) anti-asylum seeker racists will whole-heartedly cheer the liberation of France and b) listen to 'black people's music' while they do it and c) my local 'sexiest dance and r'n'b station uses Kula Shaker's 'Hey Dude' as backing for one of its things AND played Tattva during its golden hour segment recently.

Enrique (Enrique), Sunday, 6 June 2004 13:55 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Enrique OTM (I think...) Plus, I'd like to have seen this racist fellow's face when genesis employed chester thompson on drums.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Sunday, 6 June 2004 14:02 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

quite. the whole prog-as-crypto-racist thing is played-out punk rhetoric anyway. Enrique's post pretty much sums up why i couldn't have motivated myself to be as angry had it been a classical musician rather than Cheryl Tweedy making *those* remarks ("if it wasn't for black people you'd all be listening to an announcer in a dinner jacket playing Vaughan Williams" = posting on a radio forum last week directed at someone playing the "why do I have to pay for 1Xtra" line)

robin carmody (robin carmody), Sunday, 6 June 2004 15:19 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

i mean; some racists *do* like prog, and perhaps they may find its aspirational "European-ness" and high-cultural qualities appealing, but some racists like a hell of a lot of music; there is very little music that no racists will ever like because they have this ability to separate their musical tastes from their other beliefs that i will never grasp or understand (cf Polly Toynbee attacking "the media" for feeding off nostalgia yet praising Capital Gold)

robin carmody (robin carmody), Sunday, 6 June 2004 15:20 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

Robin's right. I spent some time in the early '90s periodically hanging out with a younger cousin and his friends, and they could perceive no contradiction whatsoever between their listening to and enjoying 2 Live Crew and Tone-Loc; and alternately peppering their speech with the "N"-word - in a decidedly hostile, non-ironic fashion.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Sunday, 6 June 2004 20:59 (fourteen years ago) Permalink

fourteen years pass...

i don't know which of the many prog threads to bump, so i'm going to bump this one

i was reading peter blegvad's wikipedia entry and came across this lengthy anecdote:

"Blegvad would later reveal (in an interview for the Hearsay fanzine) that "the piece that got me kicked out was "Living in the Heart of the Beast". I was assigned the task for the collective to come up with suitable verbals, and I wrote two verses about a woman throwing raisins at a pile of bones. Tim Hodgkinson just said, I'm sorry, this is not at all what we want. And he wrote reams of this political tirade. I admired his passion and application but it left me cold. I am to my bones a flippant individual, I don't know why I was created thus or what I'm trying to deny, but it clashed with the extreme seriousness. People who take themselves very seriously make me giggle, unless they're pointing a weapon at me or my loved ones".[1]"

1. "living in the heart of the beast" is a fucking fantastic song.
2. it would be better if it were about a woman throwing raisins at a pile of bones
3. i will never quite forgive henry cow for breaking up slapp happy.

The Elvis of Nationalism and Amoral Patriotism (rushomancy), Friday, 8 February 2019 01:07 (one week ago) Permalink

1. Yes.
2. No. I like the words.
3. Maybe.

Wee boats wobble but they don't fall down (Tom D.), Friday, 8 February 2019 01:16 (one week ago) Permalink


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