however as i listen to grime i really can't hear any influence of hardcore.
the breaks are gone, the momentum is lost, the stabs are gone but most of all the "take you away" feel of ecstacy is totally gone. it's totally unlike modern d&b, which is still all about the rave.
grime is way too grounded. it reminds you of the harsh realities of london living, not chemically taking you away from them. to me, therefore, grime has broken away from the hardcore continuum.
any thoughts?
― martin (martin), Thursday, 22 January 2004 16:59 (twenty years ago) link
― vahid (vahid), Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:03 (twenty years ago) link
i agree, i think the schism has occured..
BUT. having said that, i was listening to some remarc and andy c sets from 93 the other day, and they didnt really sound that different to ruff sqwad
― Stringent (Stringent), Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:05 (twenty years ago) link
― martin (martin), Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:08 (twenty years ago) link
― searchanddelete, Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:12 (twenty years ago) link
i think either the continuum is dead, or its stretched to lose original meaning. i think hardcore-jungle-speed garage-uk garage still worked within a house music context, and that the broader context has shifted from house to hip hop. during all those other musics house outside the continuum was still strong, and part of uk culture, that isnt the case any more so the continuum is within a wider culture that is now gone, or, more to the point, it is within hip hop, so there is a schism both in the wider context and within the continuum
― Stringent (Stringent), Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:14 (twenty years ago) link
um, i agree. except this is kind of a CRUCIAL point. because sr like class-based analysis, though it's hardly the only trick in his (huge) bag. hardcore continuum = the sound of a class.
― vahid (vahid), Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:15 (twenty years ago) link
but the pirates aren't really part of uk culture are they? isn't grime more of a subculture? and drum'n'bass too, until it went overground and they started doing cover articles in magazines, and then it wasn't "hardcore" anymore, really, right?
― vahid (vahid), Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:17 (twenty years ago) link
this is all assuming you agree jungle emerged from hardcore obviously, but the line from jungle to grime is fairly clearcut isn't it? a lot of the first big garage MCs (psg, blakey, CKP etc) were jungle MCs who never made it. the music is nurtured in the same shops and pirate stations (eg rinse, deja etc) and raves at the same venues (palace pavillion, rex, eq etc)
it all follows on but its a continuum innit, that means the thing at this end of it might look a lot different from what started things off in the first place, just changes all the time like chinese whispers
― ', Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:20 (twenty years ago) link
just because d&b artists do a few magazine covers doesn't make the music still massively related to hardcore. literally hundreds of tunes have come out this year with stabs, breaks and that epic ecstacy vibe.
grime doesn't take you away. it's real. ;)
― martin (martin), Thursday, 22 January 2004 17:51 (twenty years ago) link
E hasn't really part of the 'Nuum since '94 when many junglists started slagging off chemicals and extolling natural highs of herbs.
just sonixally i'd say the original h-core has at least as much in common with Grime as speed garage or 2step circa 99 has with grime. I.e. the 'Nuum twists and swerves and goes through all kindsa mutations but it's still the same Entity
re realness, i would say that one thing that defined hardcore and make it diffrent from 'we are the beautiful people' house clubs and trance raves alike was that in its deepest heart it knew the E-dream was a beautiful lie (loads of songs touch on the idea of it being fantasy, an illusion, a closing of the eyes to the real); and anyway by the end of 92 it had plunged into darkness which is realer-than-thou.
even arguably the newest thing about Grime which is the role of the MC is an evolution of the role of the mc back in the hardcore days
― simonr, Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:15 (twenty years ago) link
at some point pre-metalheadz and post-prodigy i'd say there was lots of hardcore floating around that was "for real", in that it references the real situations and conditions of the millieu ... even a track like "RIP" is rooted in the real insofar as it compares the rave experience to soundclash culture (compare to "hyperspeed" or "g-force" which compare it to space travel or god knows what!). and even in 96-97, after tracks like "metropolis" and "to shape the future", when it went all bladerunner on one side, you had this parallel jump-up explosion, rooted in y'know, sexuality and aggression and whatnot...
― vahid (vahid), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:18 (twenty years ago) link
i think one of the other interesting things is the role of the voice, while the voice has always been central (and yea, mcs on pirates riiiight the way through), not on the tracks in the same way, ie: not mc focused. the others might all have been mc-heavy at club/on pirate, but not really on the tracks, not in the same way as grime
ragga-jungle is interesting in this, because that was when for many in the scene it got too hip hop, too mc oriented, and there was a severe backlash against that from many jungle originalists, a schism within jungle which you could say partially eventually led to its demise much later, possibly.
i think the london-hardcore-continuum has 2 key elements. 1) london, 2) house music. i think the first element is still there, for all the reasons outlined above, but the 2nd is gone, in a wider sense too, and there is a realignment with hip hop as centre rather than merely key element
northwest london overlooked in all this, harlesden etc
what about the london-hardcore-continuum pre 92, does it exist? in what way? i think not, due to too much focus on belgium/america, but the key elements outlined by others above were all there, so why is that not part of the lhc?
― Stringent (Stringent), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:31 (twenty years ago) link
Just thinking about all of the "old skool" 2 step heads hating on grime and saying that there's no "garage" in it...
― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:49 (twenty years ago) link
― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:50 (twenty years ago) link
― Stringent (Stringent), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:51 (twenty years ago) link
― Stringent (Stringent), Thursday, 22 January 2004 19:54 (twenty years ago) link
― searchanddelete, Thursday, 22 January 2004 20:04 (twenty years ago) link
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 23 January 2004 05:36 (twenty years ago) link
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 January 2004 05:43 (twenty years ago) link
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 January 2004 05:44 (twenty years ago) link
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 January 2004 05:45 (twenty years ago) link
― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 23 January 2004 05:48 (twenty years ago) link
― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Friday, 23 January 2004 05:49 (twenty years ago) link
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 January 2004 05:50 (twenty years ago) link
yeah i think you could trace the prehistory of the 'Nuum back before '92, shut up and dance obivously, but the elements are coalescing all through the eighties--pirates etc. probably even further back -- i just read this book Bass Culture on reggae and they actually had dubplates and prerelease specials in the UK in the late 1950s!
i really think there could be a 2step reinvention soonish, the ladies massive aren't digging the Grime (judging by some things i overheard n the basement of blackmarket last summer, anyway), they will assert their Will. the fact that grime raves have no dance element just people nodding to rhymes sort of DEMANDS a return to groove at some point. whether it's 4/4 house vibe as strongo imagines or 98/99 2step we'll have to see, it's almost long enough now since 2step that it could be revived.
i dug out a 99 tape for someone the other day, and it brought a tear to my eye -- the music was so criss and glossy, it was like the scene manufacturing its own sunshine. the sheer sound quality of it was stunning, so bright and clean c.f the cruddy sonix of grime
― simonr, Friday, 23 January 2004 15:56 (twenty years ago) link
― Paul (scifisoul), Friday, 23 January 2004 18:37 (twenty years ago) link
― prima fassy (bob), Friday, 23 January 2004 20:56 (twenty years ago) link
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Friday, 23 January 2004 20:59 (twenty years ago) link
― ', Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:15 (twenty years ago) link
― robin carmody (robin carmody), Saturday, 24 January 2004 00:48 (twenty years ago) link
Adam, "Champagne Dance" is from late '01. The Destruction Mix is an interesting version to track down because it sounds very much like common grime-pop, whereas the original was on more of a soca-beat tip a la K2 Family's "Bouncin' Flow" or the Steve Gurley mix of Zed Bias's "Neighbourhood". The Sticky mix is also tops.
Re: a potential return to house - I'm uncertain as to whether it's worth closely following the urban house scene. It's where a lot of the good times/dancing part of the 2-step fanbase have gone but I have a suspicion that it's not where the next big twist will come from if only because its leaders (Dreem Teem etc.) are unlikely to have two shots at glory. What's been true of every twist since jungle has been the generational passing of the baton: although there were a lot of ex-junglists in speed garage none of the big producers were ever *that* big in jungle (even Steve Gurley's post-Foul Play work as Rogue Unit is relatively obscure). Likewise the only big 2-step producers to have even stayed on speaking terms with grime are Sticky and DND, both of which only really "emerged" as forces to contend with in '01.
If there has been any twists and turns in urban house worth noting, it's been the major-scale revival and intensification of the Todd Edwards influence - some of the tunes have astonishingly complex crosshatching (the best I've heard being Drama's "Keeper of the Keys", which cuts up the phrase "I love raving" (!) into a thing of ethereal beauty). Who knows if this will bear fruit though?
I think fiddo is onto something with the R&B mention though, as this is where I keep hearing the female audience has gone. When I interviewed Sabrina from Mis-Teeq early last year she said that Eye Candy was more R&B/dancehall focused as opposed to garage because that's what all their friends were listening/dancing to and they wanted/needed to make an album that girls would like. But what, apart from Mis-Teeq, is this audience listening to? What music is being made for them?
What I could sort of imagine would be some sort of reconnection between this lost female audience and the slowed-down, more musical sound of half-time grime. It's timely of Prima to bring up "Thuggish Ruggish" because that's a tune which has the potential to unite a lot of different audiences: grime, 2-step, hip hop, R&B, dancehall...
Alternative: an R&B/garage/broken beat/house fusion a la Mis-Teeq's "Eye Candy" (the actual track) which strikes me as being simultaneously one of the most brazenly physical, most feminine, and most startlingly new-sounding things I heard of in '02. Although I never *did* find out who produced it (it was bizarrely and shamefully left off the Oz version of the album).
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 24 January 2004 07:37 (twenty years ago) link
― prima fassy (bob), Saturday, 24 January 2004 13:03 (twenty years ago) link
― prima fassy (bob), Saturday, 24 January 2004 13:05 (twenty years ago) link
― prima fassy (bob), Saturday, 24 January 2004 13:08 (twenty years ago) link
― Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Saturday, 24 January 2004 13:11 (twenty years ago) link
have you heard knightz of the roundtable 'baby'? (it says baby instead of boy)
just blaze seems to be every garage bods favourite producer. but more and more uk hiphop (new generation stuff, kalsanekoff, execution squad, rather than your talneted but slightly worthy blak twangs and tys) getting played too.
fluidity is my favourite musical quality, from those breakbeats, to twostep, to just blaze, to target, to james brown etc etcmomentum and fluidity. them two things, and yeah, light ya ass,danny weed, grindin=anit fluidity
― ', Saturday, 24 January 2004 13:38 (twenty years ago) link
(i'd say the beats and cam's chat is intrinsic tho, but this for elsewhere)
i have not heard that kotrt no, i heard 'the siege' tho cos it got onto 12. good stuff, i got my eye on them defo. new just blaze ain't what it used to be, too rigid now (that poison rmx tho, oh!) maybe all grime is secretly a kanye/just blaze tussle, i can imagine everyone riding 'encore' now
― prima fassy (bob), Saturday, 24 January 2004 15:23 (twenty years ago) link
― prima fassy (bob), Saturday, 24 January 2004 15:28 (twenty years ago) link
― prima fassy (bob), Saturday, 24 January 2004 15:30 (twenty years ago) link
― Omar (Omar), Saturday, 24 January 2004 15:51 (twenty years ago) link
its still therethats the skinny man, finsbury park axis
― ', Saturday, 24 January 2004 16:26 (twenty years ago) link
― strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Saturday, 24 January 2004 16:28 (twenty years ago) link
― ambrose (ambrose), Saturday, 24 January 2004 17:06 (twenty years ago) link
― prima fassy (bob), Saturday, 24 January 2004 20:19 (twenty years ago) link
― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Saturday, 24 January 2004 20:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Sunday, 25 January 2004 02:38 (twenty years ago) link
― M Matos (M Matos), Sunday, 25 January 2004 03:03 (twenty years ago) link
― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Sunday, 25 January 2004 10:23 (twenty years ago) link
Haha!
― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 19:00 (twenty years ago) link
― '''''', Tuesday, 27 January 2004 19:17 (twenty years ago) link
― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 20:02 (twenty years ago) link
very. everything's hyper evolving. people talk about producers being old school with in 6 months. kids are in crews acting the badman at 12.
>ecstasy has been wiped from the cultural dna.
yes! this is EXACTLY why i started this thread. surely the lack of e breaks the hardcore continuum?
>i wish there was a bit more of that old Mc-as-compere, enhancement-to-the-music
may i suggest the sublime Crazy D, as foil to the mighty DJ Hatcha, and his amazing abilty to twist and recontextualise odd phrazes from madonna, reggae anthems, adverts etc. he's always shouting to all "first aiders and escapaders."
]email me if you want some CDrs Simon. Hatcha & Crazy D are genius...[
― martin (martin), Tuesday, 27 January 2004 22:35 (twenty years ago) link
i got a copy of that nasty set now by the way, no thanks to you lot!
― '''''''''', Tuesday, 27 January 2004 23:18 (twenty years ago) link
― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 00:18 (twenty years ago) link
i agree 2step has never had anything to do with e, but its swing and warmth was still part of the house axis, that warm "up" vibe. (and even jungle and later d&b still had that, before the drop). but now grime is all "down": bassy, controlled, contained, angry...
and also don't get me wrong, i can see the evolutionary thread very clearly sequentially from hardcore to grime. i just think either end of the thread (ie hardcore and grime) share next to none of the same sonic elements.
― martin (martin), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 00:47 (twenty years ago) link
― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 00:52 (twenty years ago) link
― martin (martin), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 01:07 (twenty years ago) link
― prima fassy (bob), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 01:20 (twenty years ago) link
94 yeah there woz pills around (some of them in my tum) but E had ceased to be the paradigmatic vibe-setter. there weren't any tunes hymning E by 94 but there were lots of tunes about herbalist and ganja lover
i wouldn't actually say a drug element was integral to the Nuum, at least not any specific drug. the only thing maybe that's consistent all the way through every kind of pirate music is weed. but that's not unique to that scene
i think what really defines the h-core Nuum is the transposition of a Jamaican way of doing things onto UK club culture -- the dubplates, the riddims, the bass presha, the MC... pirates i think of as equivalent to the big sounds in JA, instead of a lawn they have a broadcast area. Same cut throat rivalry, same repping their local manor, same ties with shady folk
H-core Continuum = the mishmashed up only-in-Britain/mostly-in-London meeting of house music and Jamaica.
― simonr, Wednesday, 28 January 2004 03:05 (twenty years ago) link
― ''''''', Wednesday, 28 January 2004 09:09 (twenty years ago) link
ok so if you say drugs is not a core element of the "Nuum" then we'll ignore that, but the influence of house music is now almost completely erased from the Nuum's latest thread...
― martin (martin), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 09:32 (twenty years ago) link
Main Auditorium : Old Skool Special
RATPACKDJ EZ (Kiss 100FM)NICKY BLACKMARKETSLIMZEEDJ YANKEEGEORGE D (Country Club)
MCs : Everson Allen, Ranking, Special MC
Arena 2 : UK Garage / RnB Classics
PIED PIPERSTEVE COURTNEYENTERTAINMENT CREWJOHN RUSSELLDJ KV
Arena 3 : hosted by TEKNOLOGY. Jungle, Drum and Bass
PHAZE-ONEDJ FADEREM-TEKDOUGHBOY & CARNAGEMC FLEXA
― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 10:20 (twenty years ago) link
― martin (martin), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 10:41 (twenty years ago) link
― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 10:51 (twenty years ago) link
Upthread you get a lot of stuff abt 2step soundtracking the 'late nineties boom'. Obviously it was the late nineties: but has anyone here thought about how that was a boom exactly, and who benefits from a boom?
I mean the big effects of the 'bust' (which doesn't compare with 1931, 1981) haven't been particularly street-level: far as I know there's been no increase in unemployment, so in fact some things are better now than in 1988-92, economically.
The big economic 'downturn' has affected the financial markets -- but this means pension schemes, banks, insurance companies.
Apart from the international scene, what makes 2004 'grimier,' economically, politically, socially, than 1999?
― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 11:50 (twenty years ago) link
― ''''''', Wednesday, 28 January 2004 12:00 (twenty years ago) link
― Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 28 January 2004 12:04 (twenty years ago) link
― jon b, Saturday, 31 January 2004 10:29 (twenty years ago) link
― gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 24 March 2004 20:19 (twenty years ago) link
72 results found:
― DAEREST V1CE MAGAZINE!!!!! (ex machina), Friday, 17 June 2005 20:41 (nineteen years ago) link
anyway isnt the main diff, the real pivotal switch from pre-grime dance to grime that the MCs are the real draws now, not the DJs nor the producers?
also, the new skepta tune duppy is interesting cos its a 4-4 tune, and honestly, its all the better for it. its dancey, when roll deep Mc over it, its got bounce, some movement, its not all stupidly stiff
the other thing about grime that might tie it to some previous other dance musics is that a lot of it is so amateurish
― fucker, Monday, 31 October 2005 12:59 (nineteen years ago) link
LOL. this hasnt exactly changed has it?
"sometimes i think the more the uk mcs try to imitate and assimilate to american standards of mcing they'll lose what they had before, the english quirkiness and parochial charm. while not gaining an iota in terms of a chance of breaking into america"
totally OTMbasically grime is an outlet for everyone who wanted to make rap music in the UK but felt uk hip hop was too derivative and unoriginal, so gravitated towards grime with optimism. but most of the MCs havent really been up to standard, and me personally, i miss not so much the patter, but just the difference between pay as u go and the type of stuff wiley tries to make these days, all the energy on record is mostly gone from his voice, the speed is AWOL, all that early more fire and PAUG and so solid stuff was so good cos their voices werent like hip hop ones, the flows werent, the beats def werent, and it was fresh, and individual....theyre trying to concentrate on ther content when most of the time, they dont really have any. they should stick with the flowing side of things, cos really, not many mcs are good outside of the pirates, i dont know why, maybe its a lasting element of the old rave/jungle MC pitfalls
― fucker, Monday, 31 October 2005 13:10 (nineteen years ago) link
i'd like to have heard 'duppy', but cameo's irrelevant lately, lioness blog is slacking and the rinse fm stream never ever works. and the forum's locked so you can't get old sets. frankly unacceptable. and when are aftershock getting their supposed radio 1 slot?
(if 'duppy' totally sounds like broken beat then i might have heard it! with an uptown top ranking 'no pop no style' sample intro? coulda sworn it was a jammer beat mind)
also i don't think worry (meh) over american influence covers only mcing - ruff sqwad are (still!) so far up dipset's arse sometimes it's getting silly now.
― hold tight the private caller (mwah), Monday, 31 October 2005 13:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― hold tight the private caller (mwah), Monday, 31 October 2005 13:44 (nineteen years ago) link
― hi, Monday, 31 October 2005 13:52 (nineteen years ago) link
but then when ruff sqwad spit over an untouched mop/heatmakerz instrumental and release it as a b-side... really what is the point.
― hold tight the private caller (mwah), Monday, 31 October 2005 14:07 (nineteen years ago) link
― hi, Monday, 31 October 2005 14:28 (nineteen years ago) link
― hi, Monday, 31 October 2005 14:31 (nineteen years ago) link
*cue all of the internet pointing and laughing at hold tight the hypocrite*
fucker's points have been done to death everywhere you look.
― hold tight the private caller (mwah), Monday, 31 October 2005 15:12 (nineteen years ago) link
― hi, Monday, 31 October 2005 15:15 (nineteen years ago) link
im up for some reactionary nostalgia a la 2001
― ambrose (ambrose), Monday, 31 October 2005 15:24 (nineteen years ago) link
― Stringent Stepper (Stringent), Monday, 31 October 2005 15:26 (nineteen years ago) link
more gun crime in london? its hard to tell sometimes with grime how pronounced the influx of urban decay in london really is or if its just part and parcel of the actual genre, i.e. its de facto POV
― DTI, Monday, 31 October 2005 15:28 (nineteen years ago) link
errm so:
still tippin, dipset, 'running' by the game, jamrock, summer bounce riddim, the throw-riko-a-bone dancehall mix of 'shake a leg' is on scoobay riddim, what else
i dunno
― hold tight the private caller (mwah), Monday, 31 October 2005 15:36 (nineteen years ago) link
― DTI, Monday, 31 October 2005 16:07 (nineteen years ago) link
― F.R.I.E.N.D. (nordicskilla), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:12 (nineteen years ago) link
― ambrose (ambrose), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:42 (nineteen years ago) link
― sistermidnight, Monday, 31 October 2005 16:45 (nineteen years ago) link
― Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:47 (nineteen years ago) link
reactionary nostalgia it is then
― hold tight the private caller (mwah), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:49 (nineteen years ago) link
― sistermidnight, Monday, 31 October 2005 16:53 (nineteen years ago) link
― hold tight the private caller (mwah), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:00 (nineteen years ago) link
― ambrose (ambrose), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:20 (nineteen years ago) link
― DTI, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:37 (nineteen years ago) link
New Kornel Kovacs LP has some poptimist-tinged broadcasts from the continuum. https://kornelkovacs.bandcamp.com/album/hotel-kokoUsch is some Nordic garage, works for me but maybe too polished for some. Get Goofy comes a little harder — I’m not sure the vocal totally works tho.
― recovering internet addict/shitposter (viborg), Friday, 21 October 2022 14:37 (two years ago) link
A lot of chatter about the new Burial release but I it’s hard for me to get worked up about, he tends to be same-y imo. I do think we should have the intention of reviving every different ardkore continuum-adjacent thread if possible.
― recovering internet addict/shitposter (viborg), Friday, 21 October 2022 14:40 (two years ago) link
honestly i think RS might be one of the most overrated crews in grimesure they have some moments of brilliance/greatness, but they usually pad it out with real sub-dipset crapthey had underground which was amazing, then on the b side they put that rubbish heatmakers-gone-grime tracki want to like them cos grime bloggers love em so much but they seem really inconsistent. i think they just want to make hip-hop really, but somehow ended up in grime (thinking about that now, that might a common dilemma)i wonder when the next wiley agenda adjustment will come, its been quite a while.― hi, Monday, 31 October 2005 14:28 (sixteen years ago) bookmarkflaglink
That's just an absolute crock. Ruff Sqwad >>>
― paolo, Saturday, 22 October 2022 09:55 (two years ago) link
why is it the hardcore continuum and not the reggae continuum or the disco continuum or something else? what motivates critical attention on this lineage over others? is it something about establishing a narrative throughline for specifically british-based electronic/dance musics? and is it supposed to be prescriptive in some way (which would make sense of bizarre things like jazz influences in jungle being talked about as somehow extraneous or intrusive)?
― your original display name is still visible (Left), Saturday, 22 October 2022 13:02 (two years ago) link