When I think about Originality (cf. ILE), I often think about things that combine existing cultural features in ways that no-one had thought of - and succeed in pulling off some kind of unlikely synthesis. The Smiths seem to me a major case of this:
a) folk-pop jangly guitar tradition
b) Northern English camp tradition
= major incident in pop history.
The thing that is hard to understand is why or how those two things (Roger McGuinn and Alan Bennett, so to speak) came together. Just by sheer chance and contingency? What strange alchemy was going on? How much of the improbable synthesis was carefully planned? etc.
― the pinefox, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
The duality you point out is an apt one, but I'd even add a few
things to that. First is the fact that while Marr is overshadowed by
Moz as the source of oddity, it's worth noting that Marr was pretty
interesting as well. He tends to get defined as some sort of
godfather of indie jangle, but listening back through those records,
you realize how all-over-the-place he tended to be, from those funky
little instrumentals he'd play live (funky in the sense that,
say, "Rubber Ring" is funky) to the occasional rockabilly turn
("Vicar in a Tutu") -- leave alone the wide swath of pop/rock he cut
And then you pair that with Morrissey, whose inclinations were even
more unusual and in a completely different fashion. This is what
fascinates me about Morrissey -- the fact that he seems to be
essentially a social deviant, the sort of person who would be sitting
creepily in a flophouse or hanging around libraries scaring people
had he not been given a near-magical opportunity to be odd for a
living. The fact that his pre-Smiths life was allegedly so creepily
sheltered explains quite a bit -- the camp mentioned above seems a
direct result of the only two musical influences he claims from his
youth, those being (a) sixties British pop of the Lulu / Twinkle /
Sandy Shaw variety, and (b) glam, e.g. his New York Dolls obsession.
(That background also explains his least appealing traits: (a) his
gynophobia, common to pretty much all sheltered, awkward, creepy
boys, and (b) his homoerotic attraction to hypermasculinity in the
form of hooliganism. This all makes so much sense if we believe the
stereotypical accounts of his youth that have him basically sitting
home reading Wilde and being terribly, debilitatingly awkward and
sickly and etc.)
Add to that the funkiness of Andy Rourke and the perpetually shuffly
drumming of Mike Joyce. It's hard to tell, though, how much of this
was Marr's doing, as both of those traits seem to be intended to work
with his funky/shuffly guitar leanings.
But maybe someone who is older than me and was living in the U.K. in
the early 80s can offer a better take on exactly how odd they sounded
at the time. Surely "Hand in Glove" was a big surprise when it first
hit the radio?
― Nitsuh, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Billy Dods, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Dr. C, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Arthur, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Dr C: great answer - but Why, Dr C? Why?
Billy Dods: I have never ever heard rockist *except* as an insult.
(Funnily enough, I think I first encountered the word in Reynolds,
re. Marr, Sept 1989.)
NItsuh - thanks for the answers. Weirdness: yes. Humour: of course -
it's not a hint or a subtext, it's a big aspect of the schtick. I
agree with you, of course, re. Marr's diversity - this was one of the
reasons he stands out so much; he seems to have *seen further* than
most musicians - and also, had the technical capacity to put what he
had in his head onto vinyl. But the jangle (Byrds, if you like) think
is still central - was still the default setting - so I think it
remains central to my (bemused) question.
I like your details on Morrissey's identity too - BUT are you sure
about the 'gynophobia' thing? (I take it this means something like
misogyny - is that right?) I mean, he was also interested in feminist
texts, as far as I can remember. A conflicted character in this
As for "having a car with *'only'* a tape deck"... jeez. That's what
I call living in the World's Only Remaining Superpower.
― mark s, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tim, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Andrew L, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Jack Redelfs, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
On a related note there was an obscure Liverpool independent band
Industry would released a fine single about Morrisse, What I
The band would steer even closer to the mainstream with their next
single, a 7" of "What I Wouldn’t Give" b/w "Bound By Silence" (1985),
taken from their forthcoming album. A fantastic single, it became an
immediate collector’s item because of the cover that was adorned with
Morrissey’s photograph, illustrating a lyric in the song: "That’s my
Smiths tapes you never wanted to hear, throw them away, Morrissey in
the bin?, if it would bring you back again."
I am not to sure of the precise meaning of this track, maybe
celebrating the individuality of Morrissey - but this is one of the
finest atmospheric pop tracks i have ever heard. In way it reminds me
of Shriekback on this big hush or faded flowers - intricate softly
spoken higly atmospheric haunting music.
Pink Industry was a brilliant electronic-industrial-atmospheric
act out of Liverpool. Fronted by the charismatic Jayne Casey, they
put out three albums and a brace of singles between 1982 and 1985,
with a few compilations following in their wake. Jayne had previously
fronted two acts–seminal Liverpool punk band Big in Japan, and art-
house throwaway act Pink Military
The strangeness of The Smiths in away was put into context on this
single, how many artists have songs directly sung about them by other
artists in a deeply passionate sense - after a relatively short
period of time. This single came out in 1985 and got played a few
times on John Peel and RTE Dave Fanning shows back in the summer of
Apparently Jayne Casey knew Morrissey
the only pink industry i know of were from liverpool, england.
the only mention i ever heard of them was in the smiths book _the
complete story_ by mick middles. described as "wild and
intelligently wacky", led by jayne casey, "fashion queen, mother
superior, and friend of morrissey".
― DJ Martian, Monday, 24 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― dave q, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
(Also having heard his 'stand-up' you have to assume he was jealous
of Morrissey for being funny sometimes)
― Tom, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Morrissey was a HYOOGE feminist of the Brownmiller/Dworkin school,
which is very attractive to 16-year-old fag hags in training ('Mom, I'm
okay downtown because the gay guys in the record store keep an eye on
me.' 'Whaaaaaaaat?!?'). Linder Sterling/Mulvey from Ludus was his best
punk friend (she also designed Magazine and Buzzcocks sleeves) and the
person who inspired Cemetry Gates. Mark S is right - she did wear the
meat dress at a gig and was part of a coterie of tough feministas inc.
the Naylor sisters and Cath Carroll. She does these weird sub-Richard
Hamilton collages for art - Nick Momus and I went to see these a few
years back 'cos his friend Andrew Renton was showing them in his
gallery (now defunct). We were both a bit disappointed, Nick more 'cos
Howard Devoto failed to turn up. Linder is now partnered up with the
novelist/pop critic Michael Bracewell (who I like very much). YEARS ago
when I was in Manchester visiting friends we walked into the big posh
Waterstone's and she was managing it, so jaw/floor moment for me!
Jayne Casey last I heard was the director of the Bluecoat Centre in
Liverpool - she's artworld big there.
Although I *hated* Johnny Marr for the latter half of 1987 he (and the
Bunnymen) were *so good* at gutar it turned my head from the dark synth
stuff I liked before I discovered the Smiths. It wasn't until I
actually visited England and met the beermonster casual element of
their later fan base that I managed to calm down about love for said
group (and it did annoy me that Morrissey, who supported socialist
causes, would wind up shafting the rhythm section). When I moved here I
quickly met all kinds of music industry people who had been friends
with him at one stage or another, but there were surprisingly few
'stories' if you know what I mean.
As to the skins and cholo boys Morrissey seems to be obsessed with now,
it's definitely a case of Fancying What Is Most Terrifying/Physically
Threatening to self.
― suzy, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― DG, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Can someone explain all this stuff to me about Morrissey in the
present. I know very little about him or the Smiths but I always hear
about some vague racial thing but never get a clear cut idea about
what people are talking about.
― hans, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Morrissey has always had a fetish for tough boys because they are so
different from him. Also, fear stimulates the adrenals in the same way
as arousal, so perhaps he's mixed up the thought of getting his arse
kicked with the thought of getting his arse...well, you know. This
became a lot more pronounced after he left the Smiths. I've never
believed he has a problem with racial issues, just that in certain
areas a guy like him who is literate but not terribly disciplined or
qualified in his education might try to comment on certain Matters Of
The Day and cause misunderstanding. A lot of his writing is about
Difference, but when it's not about being a little bit strange/outcast/
queer I think it's clumsy.
Fetishising tough boys as the Other is a BIG part of the aesthetic of
gay men who grew up in the 70s and 80s; if you look carefully at the
personnel of fashion shoots etc. in Brit magazines you'll soon see that
most of the skinhead/hooligan shoots are put there by gay guys of un
certain age. In America, the peachfuzz mullet pickup boy serves the
same function to designers like Jeremy Scott and writers like Dennis
Morrissey now lives in Silverlake in LA, big home of fanciable cholo
boys. Most of the gay guys I know who've lived there think they're cute
because of the unattainable aspect. Note to LA cholo boys with a
sensitive side: if you fancy a sugar daddy, you'd have thousands to
On to The Smiths. I'd say the single biggest 'miracle' about the
Smiths is that somehow Johnny Marr firstly 'clicked' with an oddball
like Morrissey, and secondly, that he was able to find a way to
accomodate and harness Moz's eccentricities within a viable working
band. This is based on evidence from Johnny Rogan's book (Morrissey
and Marr : The Severed Alliance) and a few conversations with
Smiths/Morrissey insiders. Marr's genius as a guitarist and arranger
is evident, but I think it's even more incredible that he managed to
work with Morrissey for 5 prolific years before the inevitable
Part of this is in the basic practicalities of song-writing. By all
accounts Morrissey's words would often appear in different places in
the arrangement to where Marr had expected (verses became middle 8's,
or Moz would sing across a transition...etc). This may account for
the way that many Smiths songs don't have a normal structure or
easily identifiable chorus, especially the earlier material. This
lack of concern for (or lack of knowledge of..) conventional forms
(on the part of Morrissey) helped a great deal to set them apart from
the rest. It probably loosened-up Marr from some of the more trad.
influences which he might have been tempted to copy.
So, I'd say that in terms of FORM, little was planned, at least
Of course we wouldn't be bothering to think/write about this if it
were not for the startling subject matter and language of Morrissey's
lyrics. In some ways it's quite amazing how you can make such an
impact by speaking so directly. Then again think how contemporaries
like Ian McCullough were still largely using rock-trad language
inherited from The Doors, Lou Reed etc.
Possibly Morrissey's most staggering achievement is to draw on so
many largely untapped sources of language to weave togther his words.
Camp humour, pathos, Northern dourness, everyday sayings ("The devil
will make work for idle hands to do"), heroic superiority (" We may
be hidden by rags, but we've something they'll never have"). Sure,
you can find examples of each of these around the place before the
Smiths, but no-one had ever integrated them into a coherent WORLD
Someone asked what initial impact the Smiths had. I remember
listening to a 7-inch of "Hand in Glove" when it was released and
liking, but not loving it, immediately. I remember spending a lot of
time with it trying to figure out exactly WHAT was so different about
it, as did a lot of my friends. It definately made an impression, but
didn't knock us flat. I guess it was just a tantalising glimpse of
Morrissey's world. I saw them live at the Lyceum with Howard Devoto
(3rd London show?) and it was clear that something big was coming,
even though the set still relied too heavily on B-grade stuff like
Miserable Lie and Hand That Rocks The Cradle. When "This Charming
Man" was released my friends and I hated it! Friend NG's
comment "They've turned into The Farmer's Boys" summed up our initial
response to the chirpy hi-life guitar, the jaunty swing of the beat,
and the camp lyrics. I still think of this comment every time I hear
TCM. I'm not sure whether the album came next, or the "What
Difference Does It Make" single, but from that point you couldn't
I can't dispute that The Smiths were, as Pinefox puts it, a major
incident in pop history. Somehow, I rarely play them these days, and
I struggle to enjoy them as much as I once did - I get the impression
that history has not been totally kind. I'll dig out a couple of
albums tonight and try to make sense of these thoughts.
― Dr. C, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
This wasn't the first time that the music papers branded Moz a
racist. During The Smiths heyday, NME soul boy Paolo Hewitt (
IIRC) claimed that the song 'Panic' was racist, because the line
"burn down the disco, hang the blessed DJ" was implicitly an
attack on black musical forms like disco and funk, and talk of
hanging recalled the language of the lynch mob. Moz also
famously said that "All reggae is vile".
More generally, Moz has always lamented the death of England -
or his vision of England, shaped by kitchen sink dramas, camp
comedies, mods and rockers violence, images of rundown
seaside towns etc. An England corrupted by outside influences,
chiefly American consumer culture (ironic considering that Moz
now lives in the USA). In this way, Moz can be seen as part of an
English socialist tradition that streches back at least to Orwell -
the working classes have been seduced by the empty, gaudy
trash of an imported culture that has cut them off from their
'authentic' roots and 'heritage'. Yet at the same time, Morrissey
worshipped The New York Dolls...
Basically, the contradictions are endless... 'For what it's worth', I
don't think Morrissey is or was a racist, but his obsession w/ the
nature of Englishness, his indifference to dance music, and his
previously mentioned homoerotic fascination/loathing for the
bully bad boy, did drag him into some pretty murky waters. But
Ironically, at the height of Moz's flirting with fascism period, he
was booed off-stage by racist skinhead Madness fans who
hated seeing their beloved Union Jack soiled by Moz's poovery...
― Andrew L, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I always had the idea that Britain in the 50s and 60s had this nice
can-do attitude when all the trad class distinctions were starting to
erode (well, if you were a clever working-class angry young man). If
you got involved in the music biz in the 80s you'd have been seriously
disabused of the notion that Britain was on its way to better, more
― Sean, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
It disappears by the next record, though ...
― Nitsuh, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
1. I like the qualified points that Nitsuh and Suzy have just made -
that sounds about right to me.
2. Like I said, this is not meant to be a thread re. the Smiths =
grate or rubbish - so with respect and all that, I don't see Jack
R's, or Dave Q's comments, as very relevant really. (There's a C/D
3. I like Cockfarmer's post. Also DG is on the money here.
4. Martian: yes, I saw the programme - which has never been very
highly rated - years ago. You seem to be saying that I don't have a
clue about the BASICS about the Smiths. What I'm trying to say,
rather, is that once you have all those basics, it's still hard to
make it all add up.
5. Suzy is right re. otherness, boot boys, etc - in detail.
6. Dr C: fantastic post: I agree with almost everything you say
(until towards the end), and I (think I) know what you mean about
initial reactions and the way you go back to them later (ie: still
thinking about 'TCM' in terms of initial rejection). (Maybe initial
reactions have something going for them.) I totally agree with you
re. Marr holding things together (ie, how did he cope? etc), and the
('accidental'?) oddity of the structures (*this* is the kind of thing
that no-one ever seems to get to discussing, for one reason or
another - though it's BASIC to what the band had to offer).
― the pinefox, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I don't really have anything else to say, except that I'm
playing "The Headmaster Ritual" at the moment and it still sounds
pretty special to me, though obviously intensely related to a social
set-up now long vanished.
God, "Panic" sounds stranger with every year that passes: I don't
know whether the Pinefox will agree with me, but I find it their
strangest, weirdest, most pathological single, their most passionate
yet their most doomed. But I don't think it would have sounded like
that in 1986: it's just that the more Britain changes year by year,
the more cosmopolitan and hedonistic it becomes, the more it seems
like an anthem raging hopelessly against the tide. Time has
made "Panic" sound vainglorious: the question is - from someone far
too young to understand these things 15 years ago - did it *always*
seem like that?
― Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― mark s, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
A few years later, of course, the clubs were in thrall to dance music
which did say something to people about their lives.
― Billy Dods, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
"Hang the DJ" referring to Smashie and Nicey gang - yes, absolutely,
but that doesn't detract from the essential nostalgia of "Panic" as a
song: a call to arms, absolutely, but also a rather pathetic, blunted
one, the children's choir sounding like a vainglorious echo of post-
war formality, and I can't help but hear a desperate fear for the
future behind the line "Could life ever be sane again?". The strange
thing is, though, I think the song is *brilliant*, but what it is
based on (broadly, to my ears, desire for a unified working class not
indulging in hedonism and love for American pop culture) could never
be recaptured, and that is where the brilliance comes from: the
desperation to achieve something that could never actually happen,
never more perfectly expressed in pop. It isn't that nobody would
write about provincial towns now but that provincial towns *just
aren't like that anymore*: even compared to 15 years ago, they are as
given over to hedonism as anywhere else and totally unresponsive to
any remaining echoes of puritan socialism (or puritanism or socialism
in any form, really). This is, I think, why Morrissey lives in LA:
he would rather not live in Britain than in a Britain unrecognisable
from his idea of Britain.
Essential ambivalence is what I love best about the Morrissey of that
time, and his worst moments ever have been his most obvious: I
personally think of "A Rush And A Push And The Land Is Ours"
(specifically "It has been before / So it shall be again") as
referring to the Wilson government / social democratic leadership
compared to the Thatcher era, but I can quite see why certain people
after the Union Jack / "NF Disco" episode interpreted the song to
mean something rather less positive (I don't think that
interpretation is *right*, of course ... the ambivalents of pop have
to be prepared for occasional stupid misinterpretations: it goes with
>>> mid-80s Smiths fandom as I see it was the *last breath of
In large part, yes, this is right. Maybe the M thing about 'illness'
(hearing aids etc) stuck out, though? Also re. gender - cos M
was 'sexually ambiguous' - and Hoggart's book doesn't have much place
for that. (This is the puritan vs bohemian split in M, if you like.)
>>> I don't know whether the Pinefox will agree with me, but I find
it their strangest, weirdest, most pathological single, their most
passionate yet their most doomed.
Yes - kind of. But like you, I don't think that detracts from its
enjoyable fascination. A strange thing, rarely mentioned, is that
it's VERY SHORT!
>>> A few years later, of course, the clubs were in thrall to dance
music which did say something to people about their lives.
Well - different perspectives here, surely. From the POV of dance
fans (or whatever) in 1986, dance music presumably *did* say what
they needed; just like (I imagine) it does for dance fans now. It
doesn't for me, of course - but you knew that.
Dods: I like the points re. rockism (personally I *love* guitar
solos, of course).
>>> The echo of the provincial towns sounds rather quaint now, I
can't imagine anyone else singing the praise of Carlisle when you've
got the delights of London or NYC to write about.
Well. Just you wait. One day.
>>> It isn't that nobody would write about provincial towns now but
that provincial towns *just aren't like that anymore*: even compared
to 15 years ago, they are as given over to hedonism as anywhere else
and totally unresponsive to any remaining echoes of puritan socialism
Hold on - there seems to be an assumption developing re. M's attitude
to provincial towns (which as said in past I find fascinating - the
towns, I mean, not the attitude). I don't see it that way. I think he
is just *listing* for PANORAMIC EFFECT: it's ALL ENGLAND APOCALYPSE.
>>> The other thing is the provincial towns Morrissey loves may have
existed at some point, but they had already disappeared, or were
disappearing, by the time Panic was written.
But those towns are still there! Yes, they've changed - but for the
better *as well as* the worse, I'd guess (like most things:
dialectics as usual).
Back to 'strangeness': this is still the key thing for me. Robin C
pinpoints an aspect of it re. the children's choir - an element of
sinister otherworldliness, or whatever. Plus, the comic (and retro)
eccentricity of Marr's *music* (cf Nitsuh earlier) as well as the
unseemly violence of the lyric (M as embarrassing ranting party
guest - back to Nitsuh earlier, again)...
It would be interesting to know if 'Panic' could ever have gone
another way - if there were more elaborate lyrical drafts that
spelled things out more fully (a la 'Queen Is Dead'). But I'm
clutching at gladioli, I know (I know, I know...).
Billy: the other Mancunian axis that comes to mind as more
representative of genuine latter-day (i.e. post-Thatcher, or rather
*irrevocably-changed-by-Thatcher*) Northern working-classness is the
Roses / Mondays (the Mondays especially) wing which was in the
ascendancy as Morrissey's solo career declined (held back, as I saw
it, by long gap between first two proper solo albums causing loss of
momentum: instructive that none of his four 1991 singles, from the
Our Frank era, made even the Top 20 whereas the first four solo
singles all went Top 10). For some reason (and I was actually
thinking about this before I knew this thread existed!), I
associate "Madchester Rave On" outselling "Ouija Board Ouija Board"
five to one in Manchester HMV with the fall of Communism and the
emergence of MTV Europe: not only concurrent, but a similar,
definitive (or so it seemed) victory of hedonism over any remaining
hints of, perhaps foolhardy, ideological conviction.
Provincial towns already changing rapidly by 1986 - well, exactly,
kind of strengthens my argument that the central theme of "Panic" is
nostalgia and longing. This is, also, its central fascination.
Pinefox: shortness of "Panic" something that occured to me earlier.
I personally relate it to the classicism / nostalgia of the song:
write a song that evokes provincial towns as they perhaps were around
1963 and make it the length of pop songs of the time (during the
British New Wave cycle of films from 1958-63, it wasn't unknown for
songs of less than two minutes in length to make Number One: Adam
Faith's "What Do You Want?" springs to mind).
The towns are still there, of course, and what is fascinating is just
how much they have changed, as anyone who makes a habit of visiting
places that feature in old films, TV series, photographs etc. will
know. One of the great fascinations of modern Britain is comparing
the general informality and hedonism of these places *now* (main
exception that comes to mind: Winchester, especially in winter) with
images of how they once were. Peter Hitchens was, perhaps for the
only time in his life, spot on when he said that traditions can be
destroyed just as effectively when you leave the buildings there but
chip away at the ideas and feelings that gave them meaning, as when
you tear down the buildings themselves. This is the key to how
Manchester - and, I suppose, provincial Britain generally - has
evolved in contradiction to and refusal of Morrissey's vision of it.
Strangeness: exactly. Listening to "A Rush And A Push ..."
and "Death of a Disco Dancer", what comes out is how great they are
*as sound*. I'd previously concentrated on Morrissey's words, but
what stands out now is how great a *band* they were. For the first
time, "Disco Dancer" sounds to me quite as apocalyptic as the title
track of "The Queen Is Dead", an epic melodic grind for long after
Moz himself is unheard.
There is much more within this thread, I think.
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 25 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
(Suzy and Nellie are sitting in the hall in front of their opened
lockers which are littered with artfully arranged pin-ups from British
and Japanese music mags. They are clearly deep in conversation)
PASSING METALHEAD BOY does a double-take when he sees locker gallery
full of Men Wearing Makeup. PMB: "What is that faggot shit?"
SUZY and NELLIE exchange glances. Each girl removes an empty shopping
bag from their locker. NELLIE: "'scuse me?"
PMB: "I asked you what that faggot shit was."
NELLIE (offers bag to PMB): "Here, take this."
SUZY (offers second bag to PMB): "Here, take this."
PMB now has TWO BAGS. PMB is puzzled.
SUZY: "Now. Put both bags over your head, DUDE. Keep America beautiful,
...see, they didn't stand a chance so no real hassle. Mallrat girls who
had 'hair' comments were encouraged to look five years into the future,
where if they had not managed to reproduce with a football player, they
might actually HAVE the haircut I was sporting that day. In the same
future I would of course be having my hair cut where I would never have
to look at their bad style ever ever again. Besides, there weren't
enough of US to form an actual Breakfast Club-type subcult so we were
very confusing for THEM.
― suzy, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
Not sure I agree. Sitting out Madchester was probably a wise move,
but the single biggest cause of the decline HAS to be the fact that
Kill Uncle was so spectacularly awful. Virtually EVERYTHING which was
good about the Smiths had gone by now. (By the way, except for the
singles, I really don't like Viva Hate either).
Somehow that knife-edge balance between camp, misery, humour,
nostalgia and arrogance, which he kept throughout the Smiths career
is out of whack much of the time. Too much or too little of any of
these carefully-juggled elements resulted in nonsense like King Leer,
Bengali in Platforms, Little Man What Now, Late Night Maudlin
Street,Alsatian Cousin etc. Maybe the lay-off before Kill Uncle gave
him too much time to think about how and what, rather than doing what
came naturally in The Smiths. Working with hacks like Street, Langer
and Nevin couldn't have helped much either.
Arthur makes a good point about a possible precendent in Orange
Juice, and for the Postcard singles, it makes good sense. Simply
Thrilled Honey and Blue Boy in particular have that odd structure and
slightly distanced feel which marked out Hand In Glove. I sense that
Collins was a much less complex character than Morrissey, and
consequently less interesting. The post-Postcard era showed that he
had nothing much to say.
― Dr. C, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
I agree, pf. It's funny - I was thinking of posting a thread about Panic a while
ago and thought better of it. What I was going to ask was 'what does this song
MEAN?' Or more specifically, what do the chorus and verses have to do with
one another? But then I decided it would make me look stupid. Of course I
understand the connection, but it struck me as a perfect example of
Morrissey's (Smiths era) approach to songwriting- so many self-contained
lines/notebook fragments/twisted aphorisms that somehow end up
constituting a lyric. If someone asked me what situation Morrissey was
describing, or point he was making in a lot of Smiths songs I'd have no
straightforward answer. He changed style a bit on Meat is Murder ('The
Headmaster Ritual' is perhaps his best sustained direct, transparent song) but
he never really lost his predilection (knack?) for opaque, ambiguous, cut and
paste lyrics (torrents of words falling over themselves) until a little
way into his solo career.
A thing that rarely gets mentioned: Mick Middles' book (yes, I know it's
terrible) insists that when Morrissey & Marr started out, their plan was to
become a songwriting team, not a band. Does anyone know if that's true?
― Nick, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
That begs the question what was different about the Smiths. I would
tend to argue that, musically, they were *less* strange than early
Orange Juice: a fuller sound, less angular and difficult, less
scratchy. Which is to say, I suppose, that they were more palatable
to a pop/rock mainstream. I recall very well hearing "What Difference
Does It Make" and "Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now" on Radio 1 on the
bus to school. I can't imagine any of those first few OJ singles
making it onto the breakfast show.
There's also clearly a big chunk of J. Rotten in the Morrissey
persona: that ill, contrary outsider bit, handing down his crushing
barbs with total disdain. I suppose you could argue that, musically,
the Smiths were the first band in a musical generation to consider
themselves nothing to do with punk (and punk as just a detail of
history). They made themselves palatable to punk-obsessed likes of me
by the Rotten-ness of SPM. Just a thought.
― Tim, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― mark s, Wednesday, 26 September 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link
xp Fairly easy to find on Soulseek too
― groovypanda, Tuesday, 24 October 2017 19:15 (two years ago) link
don't Smiths royalties all still go to Joyce anyway?
― shackling the masses with plastic-wrapped snack picks (sic), Tuesday, 24 October 2017 19:27 (two years ago) link
Do they? I was just making an assumption.
― Marcus Hiles Remains Steadfast About Planting Trees.jpg (DJP), Tuesday, 24 October 2017 19:27 (two years ago) link
― Randall Jarrell (dandydonweiner), Tuesday, 24 October 2017 19:31 (two years ago) link
all Morrissey's royalties on Smiths sales were supposedly going to Joyce until the judgement on his second lawsuit was paid off (basically bcz Moz refused to go to court, so Joyce got a default judgment placing a lien on Moz's cut)
this was in 2001 from a 1996 lawsuit, so maybe they've sold enough millions of records since then to polish off the debt. seems
― shackling the masses with plastic-wrapped snack picks (sic), Tuesday, 24 October 2017 22:20 (two years ago) link
what's this about Hatful not being blue anymore??
― piscesx, Tuesday, 24 October 2017 22:44 (two years ago) link
― shackling the masses with plastic-wrapped snack picks (sic), Tuesday, 24 October 2017 23:10 (two years ago) link
i think people are mistaking a t-shirt in a photo for the actual album
― PaulTMA, Tuesday, 24 October 2017 23:13 (two years ago) link
also, the CD has always cropped sleeve dow
yeah that CD cover has been around for 30+ years, the reissue CD in the 'Complete' box went back to the original vinyl sleeve; replica stickers and all.
― piscesx, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 02:36 (two years ago) link
I bought my vinyl copy of Hatful in 1988 or 1989, by which time Rough Trade had already changed the blue gatefold to a no-border single sleeve like this:https://i.imgur.com/7sR98ZN.jpg
― Alba, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 03:46 (two years ago) link
TBH I was joking upthread and actually prefer it that way. The blue is kind of garish.
― Alba, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 03:48 (two years ago) link
ah, the Australian CD had the full blue-bordered sleeve, I never knew that wasn't standard
― shackling the masses with plastic-wrapped snack picks (sic), Wednesday, 25 October 2017 07:41 (two years ago) link
iirc the Salford Lads pic on the original was the one shot from the photoshoot that Johnny told Moz not to use. Can easily believe he vetoed it and insisted on the student protest one.
― Stevie T, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 09:07 (two years ago) link
My copy of Hatful has the same cover as Alba's, I think I prefer it to the original too but on the other hand it is missing the great inner photo from the gatefold:
― Gavin, Leeds, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 09:35 (two years ago) link
There's just something quite 80s corporate training manual about the blue.
― Alba, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 11:54 (two years ago) link
The outside/inside of the live CD/vinyl in this new reissue is quite tasty
― piscesx, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 12:35 (two years ago) link
burroughs and kerouac, not bad
― Ich bin kein Berliner (alex in mainhattan), Wednesday, 25 October 2017 13:29 (two years ago) link
Any new Smiths cover stars at this point just feel like pastiche to me.
― Alba, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 13:37 (two years ago) link
But I don't know if anyone has remarked yet on how wonderful it is to hear the Boston concert. I've been listening to I Want the One I Can't Have on repeat.
― Alba, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 13:40 (two years ago) link
i can really relate to the OT. when i first started getting into the Smiths (post-HS living w hardcore punk rockers) i really went through a Smiths phase where i listened to them over and over. there was something special, something like a warm blanket, an emotional realm they manage to always hit perfectly. the music really is the archetypal emo music, music for rainy days, music for self indulgent misery and acting like a fool. they have that echoey drum sound, they are just another guitar band, but they are perfect at capturing a mood.
i was listening to "Strangeways" the other day and paying close attention to the arrangements. "A Rush and a Push" has this minor key Stones-Kinks thing going, with some harpsichord and is that marimba? giving off "Under My Thumb" feels a bit but also sort of being a harpsichord ska track. Morrisey is the key to it all, he glides over these songs, wailing and moaning the songs into phantasmagorical form like a wailing ghost. plenty of acts in the 80s had the emotional crooner thing going on but Morrisey really stands out in his performance. the whole band is great and the music is lovely and on top of that you have this singular voice.
"Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Love Me" is beyond classic, it is legendary. post-apocalyptic 50s broken heart waltz of doom. one of the saddest songs ever, it is self-aware without losing any of the poignancy of the emotional dream of the work: "this story is old, i know, but it goes on". devastating.
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 25 October 2017 16:22 (two years ago) link
i used to have a t-shirt that had the black and white hatfull art on it and the shirt itself was the exact shade of blue as the cover
wish i still had it
― gr8080, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 16:28 (two years ago) link
ha! me too!i also no longer have that shirti always felt super cool in it when i was a teen
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 25 October 2017 16:48 (two years ago) link
did you buy yours at The Alley??
― gr8080, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 16:53 (two years ago) link
no i ordered it from the back of a magazine lol!
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 25 October 2017 16:57 (two years ago) link
now that i look up some images of hatful of hollow tshirts. i don't see the one i had anywhere pictured in the top results and it occurred to me that i did not have a proper hatful of hollow tshirt -- i had a tshirt with the image from the s/t album and the shirt itself was hatful-of-hollow blue
i did order it from the back of a magazine and i no longer have it -- that much was accuratememory getting saggy!
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Wednesday, 25 October 2017 17:07 (two years ago) link
"iirc the Salford Lads pic on the original was the one shot from the photoshoot that Johnny told Moz not to use."
what a fucking dumb thing to do
― akm, Wednesday, 25 October 2017 17:08 (two years ago) link
This is a great piece imo
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 15 November 2017 17:51 (two years ago) link
Written by one of my best friends, full disclosure
― Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, 15 November 2017 17:52 (two years ago) link
in the midst of life we are in death et ceteraet cetera et cetera et cetera et ceterain the midst of life we are in death et cetera
― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 23:48 (six days ago) link
― otm into winter (rip van wanko), Tuesday, 11 February 2020 23:53 (six days ago) link
ex cetera iirc
― wmlynch, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 00:36 (five days ago) link
The etcs are a great fadeout lyric and indeed were in 1966 when Jackie Lee used it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RQBCuxKDnmA
― everything, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 02:03 (five days ago) link
Would happily buy tickets for a Smiths reunion with Peter Cetera
― Master of Treacle, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 05:58 (five days ago) link
omg it is death
― greta van thunberger fleetwig (rip van wanko), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 06:02 (five days ago) link
anyone recommend a good morrissey bio?
― corrs unplugged, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 07:29 (five days ago) link
― Todd Phillips, party auteur (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 10:28 (five days ago) link
lolNot exactly a bio but Simon Goddard's Songs That Saved Your Life is a great read xp
― groovypanda, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 13:01 (five days ago) link
i keep forgetting morrissey wrote a memoir and somehow convinced penguin to publish it as a "penguin classic"
― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 17:38 (five days ago) link
https://i.imgur.com/ufnBs8a.jpgwish i knew how to photoshop morrissey's bio onto this
― greta van thunberger fleetwig (rip van wanko), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 17:59 (five days ago) link
Morrissey's autobio is hilarious tbrr
if you want a bio of the Smiths the one to read is Fletcher's "There is a Light That Never Goes Out" imo
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 18:02 (five days ago) link
morrissey's autobio is quite funny. there is much more on the court case about the smiths' royalties than there is about the 5 years of the band the smiths existing. lots of stuff about how the smiths singles didn't sell as well because of the incompetence of rough trade - they didn't send enough copies to the shops to meet the demand! - but also about how solo singles of his charted higher than any smiths single, which proves solo moz is better than the smiths!
― frederik b. godt (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 18:13 (five days ago) link
yeah it is rife with bitchy score-settling, which, I mean, what else would you expect
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 12 February 2020 18:25 (five days ago) link
i also have never forgotten this line from early in the book, when talking about the dilapidated manchester of his youth, which is something like "streets to define you, streets to confine you". very teenage poetry
― frederik b. godt (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 18:28 (five days ago) link
Anyone get past the first page of his novel?
― it's after the end of the world (Matt #2), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 18:35 (five days ago) link
Iirc, it is "death" one time and "debt" the other.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 18:42 (five days ago) link
― corrs unplugged, Thursday, 13 February 2020 10:29 (four days ago) link