"November Spawned a Monster" what's up with this song?

Jim: That's very interesting! So we can see Morrissey as the ideological architect of Britpop, a kind of prophet who had to be killed in order to let the religion thrive? Why not? I mean, what would Christianity be like if Christ were still around to tell the Pope 'That's not what I meant at all!'

This Morrissey slain for Britpop argument is spot on: Smiths have been used totemistically by Blur (Graham Coxon caught the 'Hang The DJ' noose at their last gig and said in their South Bank show that it was kind of like being passed the baton), Suede, Oasis (they were signed to their management because J. Marr's brother Ian was friends with Liam G and yeah do share the 2G Irishness thing, v. significant) and in content terms Pulp are Smiths plus sex. Which is why Morrissey hates Jarvis so. Morrissey also 'did' Riot Grrrl-style feminism with Linder *well* before groups in both America and Britain (and in fact even before C Love was dosing Liverpool bands with LSD) and early interviews - the last time music writers seemed capable of discussing such things with intelligence and rational lack of hyperbole - made a great deal of him reading Molly Haskell and Andrea Dworkin. It suggests as well some kind of aversion to all forms of violence as cruel, invasive, or lacking in dignity (but in the case of bits of rough of whatever race or sexuality, who display other violence, you get the OMG HOTT!!! response immediately followed by a distancing through lapsed-Catholic guilt).

Morrissey is in a long line of 2G Irish writers (back to the equally sexless Shaw, Wilde) who engage with the Englishness of their day (or that of the recent past) as a form of social critique, especially in terms of social mores and the hypocritical handling of same by the establishment and more humble individuals alike.

Also in terms of criticism of Morrissey for having such a narrow aesthetic, you've got to remember that he is an autodidact. You can see how an interest in James Dean, radfem, glamour/squalor juxtaposition (classic schizoid stuff; you're simultaneously too good and not good enough), sexual ambiguity and pop as romance might actually produce a person engaged with his exact interests.

Hands up anyone who isn't an autodidact?

No matter what "it" is about, taking "truly English" to mean "100% English ancestors" is not good.

I know about Morrissey's background. I live in an area of London where a large minority (possibly even a majority) of the residents are first or second generation immigrants. I'm not wandering round saying those people are not "truly English". You seem to be.

Look Dadaismus the sort of message board I want to be on is the sort where if posters make what look like clumsy or unfortunate statements on sensitive issues it's possible to talk about that. I have a problem with people taking 'truly English' to mean '100% English ancestry' (as if there's any such thing) as you did upthread. I would have preferred it if you had wanted to talk about that and I'm sorry for my part in any fighting. Interweb fighting's rubbish.

Of course H managed to leave out the qualifiers 'often' and 'in a sense' when he quoted my statement, therefore making a caveat-laden cravat into a blanket big enough to fall asleep beneath.

...which is where we came in I think. OK fighting is stupid, jumping to conclusions about people is equally as stupid but if you can't detect any irony in Morrissey's "Englishness" then you don't really know much about Morrissey or growing up "Irish" in England or Britain.

""My Irishness was never something I hid," says Morrissey. "I was called Paddy from an early age. It was always odd later on with The Smiths when I was described as being extremely English, because other people would tell me that I looked Irish, sounded Irish."

And he did, he did.

PS. That line is 'The last truly British people you will ever know', not 'English'.

"Ironic given that Morrissey is far from 100% English (ditto Johnny Marr, the Gallaghers) - not exactly "the last truly English people you will ever know"

I don't think your intentions were malign but you rightly reacted very strongly - much more strongly than I did today - to Geir's comments about So Solid, when he appeared to question their 'Englishness'. I agreed with you then.

I also think that ambiguity in a lyric functions very differently from ambiguity in discussion, especially written discussion like this.

Ditto. Should we seek professional help?

On with the battle!

The line about 'the last truly British people you will ever know' is from 'We'll Let You Know', a song about football fans:

We're all smiles
Then, honest, I swear, it's the turnstiles
That make us hostile
Oh ...
We will descend
On anyone unable to defend
Themselves
Oh ...

Your Arsenal !

We may seem cold, or
We may even be
The most depressing people you've ever known
At heart, what's left, we sadly know
That we are the last truly British people you'll ever know
We are the last truly British people you will ever know
You'll never never want to know'

The obvious meaning of the song didn't stop John Harris in the NME from declaring:

'There are moments on this record when the hints of hideous political sympathies that have provided his detractors with new ammunition become full-frontal reminders of why Morrissey needed taking to task in the first place.
Here, "England for the English", the line from 'National Front Disco' that began life as a non-committal slogan stolen from someone else's mouth, sounds worryingly like a sincere clarion call - and after a two-minute feedback coda Morrissey announces that he was thinking of releasing the song as a single. Very clever move.
It's not the only chilling moment, either. You listen to 'We'll Let You Know', the song that talks about bovver-booted beer lads as "the last truly British people you'll ever know", visualise Morrissey wrapping himself in the flag in front of a backdrop featuring two skinheads, and feel slightly sick.'

Is this stupidity on Harris' part, or wilful misrepresentation?

It ain't got Dizzee Rascal on it, that's what's wrong with the cunt.