At first, I thought it sounded like an anti anti-abortion story (i.e. see what happens when you outlaw abortions even in the face of gross deformity), especially since it references "Jesus" (i.e. the religios right, maybe?). I also thought maybe it was about rape or something? Like, this terrible, evil rape produced this hideous abomination...?!?
But the song doesn't really seem to support either theory entirely.
And why the hell is Yoko Ono rockin' out in the middle? Is that supposed to be sounds of rape, child-birth or just a deformed child singing?!?
In short... does anyone know what the hell this song is about?
― paige s, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:24 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:29 (twenty years ago) link
― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:29 (twenty years ago) link
― cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:30 (twenty years ago) link
What is this line supposed to mean: "A symbol of where mad, mad lovers Must PAUSE and draw the line" ??!?! That makes this sound about incest to me, now.
You know, I think I actually HAVE a video tape somewhere with all of Morrissey's videos from this era.... Perhaps I should go home and dig it up? Are you SURE it will all make sense, then? ;)
― paige, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:33 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:37 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:39 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:40 (twenty years ago) link
― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:42 (twenty years ago) link
no it doesn't.
I love this song, it's one of my favourite Morrissey singles. The lyrics may or may not be offensive, but the tune and production rock.
― DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:42 (twenty years ago) link
Moz-nip! oh no!
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:42 (twenty years ago) link
― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:43 (twenty years ago) link
But since it wasn't at all helpful (no offense!), I asked anyway.
There seem to be many knowledgeable people here... figured someone might know. Or at least have their own interesting interpretation.
BTW, where did MOZ come from?? I don't remember EVER hearing or seeing that nickname before 20 minutes ago. Is it new? or am I just out of the loop? (the morrissey loop- HEEEE!)
― paige, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:43 (twenty years ago) link
― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:44 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:44 (twenty years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:44 (twenty years ago) link
And what the hell happened to Mary Margaret O'Hara, anyway?
― Rick Spence (spencerman), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:47 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link
― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:51 (twenty years ago) link
― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:52 (twenty years ago) link
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000251KX.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:53 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:56 (twenty years ago) link
Hey, thanks everyone!
So the general consensus is that there is no underlying political message here? :)
Morrissey seems uhh, opinionated... so I thought maybe he was laying some deeper shit on us here or something.
Perhaps he is just mildly obsessed with cripples (ala early john lennon)?
― paige, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:57 (twenty years ago) link
― Rick Spence (spencerman), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 20:58 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 21:00 (twenty years ago) link
― Huckleberry Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 21:04 (twenty years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 21:07 (twenty years ago) link
― pauls00, Wednesday, 12 November 2003 21:34 (twenty years ago) link
ok, not really much like that at all...
― paulhw (paulhw), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 22:00 (twenty years ago) link
Oh, one fine day Let it be soon She won't be rich or beautiful But she'll be walking your streets In the clothes that she went out And chose for herself. A victory for the outsider character! She is ugly and deformed, but asserts her individuality by choosing and buying and wearing and walking in her own clothes.
Morrissey is appalled by the notion that people consider it 'tactful' to pass over oddballs and mis-shapes and misfits in silence. He derides the 'mad mad lovers', those 'hedonists' who seem game for anything and anyone, but, like the worst 19th century eugenecists, will 'pause and draw the line' when confronted by anything but the most perfectly regular features. What could be less right wing than this song?
Morrissey later revisited the theme in 'You're The One For Me, Fatty' -- which again some people took, foolishly, as weightist. He seems to me an exemplary feminist.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 22:40 (twenty years ago) link
A symbol of where mad, mad lovers Must PAUSE and draw the line. So sleep and dream of love Because it's the closest You will get to love That November Is a time Which I must Put OUT of my mind
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:15 (twenty years ago) link
― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:17 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:18 (twenty years ago) link
Morrissey would have no interest in making us sympathise with a winner. That would be reactionary. So he spends most of the song setting the character up as a loser, then lets her win in a small way at the end.
And that's as close to 'uplifting' as M gets. I think it's very uplifting, like a Stan Douglas film with a tiny glimpse of redemption at the end.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:27 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:28 (twenty years ago) link
One fine dayLet it be soonShe will be rich and beautiful
That would have given hope to all the hideously disfigured people, wouldn't it? They could all get plastic surgery, write a book about it, make a million, and run for president.
No.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:37 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:38 (twenty years ago) link
It's called 'being British', Dan! God knows, I've written these kinds of songs myself.
I'm just counting down to someone demanding testily that I defend the indefensibility of 'Bengali In Platforms' now.
10, 9, 8, 7...
(And I could too, but that's another thread.)
5, 4, 3, 2...
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:41 (twenty years ago) link
― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:45 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Ann Sterzinger (Ann Sterzinger), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:49 (twenty years ago) link
And there's the question of deformity as inverted narcissism. Morrissey's whole schtick is about his own adolescence in the 70s, when he was very isolated, no doubt gripped by simultaneous feelings of huge inferiority and huge superiority. He often claims to this day in interviews that he's either irresistible or hideous. Nothing in between.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:50 (twenty years ago) link
'She passed by the loving couples, She turned her head away;She passed by the loving couples, And they didn't ask her to stay.'
suggests to me that Morrissey could even have had this poem in mind when he wrote 'November'. Note that Auden's ending is much darker.
― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 12 November 2003 23:53 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:01 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:07 (twenty years ago) link
* The massively successful dwelling on and celebrating massive success and winning
with the politics of
* The massively successful dwelling on and celebrating failure and losing
Isn't it clear that to cite Morrissey's creation of loser characters as some sign of right wing proclivities is just wrong? And a terrible slur on a humanist.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:11 (twenty years ago) link
― E. (ebb), Thursday, 13 November 2003 00:16 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:18 (twenty years ago) link
― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:20 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:22 (twenty years ago) link
― H (Heruy), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:24 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:25 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:25 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:29 (twenty years ago) link
Look Dadaismus the sort of message board I want to be on is the sort where if posters make what look like clumsy or unfortunate statements on sensitive issues it's possible to talk about that. I have a problem with people taking 'truly English' to mean '100% English ancestry' (as if there's any such thing) as you did upthread. I would have preferred it if you had wanted to talk about that and I'm sorry for my part in any fighting. Interweb fighting's rubbish.
― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:36 (twenty years ago) link
Of course H managed to leave out the qualifiers 'often' and 'in a sense' when he quoted my statement, therefore making a caveat-laden cravat into a blanket big enough to fall asleep beneath.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:42 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:46 (twenty years ago) link
...which is where we came in I think. OK fighting is stupid, jumping to conclusions about people is equally as stupid but if you can't detect any irony in Morrissey's "Englishness" then you don't really know much about Morrissey or growing up "Irish" in England or Britain.
""My Irishness was never something I hid," says Morrissey. "I was called Paddy from an early age. It was always odd later on with The Smiths when I was described as being extremely English, because other people would tell me that I looked Irish, sounded Irish."
And he did, he did.
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:47 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:53 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:55 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:55 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:57 (twenty years ago) link
PS. That line is 'The last truly British people you will ever know', not 'English'.
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:57 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 14:58 (twenty years ago) link
"Ironic given that Morrissey is far from 100% English (ditto Johnny Marr, the Gallaghers) - not exactly "the last truly English people you will ever know"
I don't think your intentions were malign but you rightly reacted very strongly - much more strongly than I did today - to Geir's comments about So Solid, when he appeared to question their 'Englishness'. I agreed with you then.
I also think that ambiguity in a lyric functions very differently from ambiguity in discussion, especially written discussion like this.
― Tim (Tim), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:00 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:05 (twenty years ago) link
― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:05 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:08 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:09 (twenty years ago) link
Ditto. Should we seek professional help?
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:11 (twenty years ago) link
On with the battle!
The line about 'the last truly British people you will ever know' is from 'We'll Let You Know', a song about football fans:
We're all smiles Then, honest, I swear, it's the turnstiles That make us hostile Oh ... We will descend On anyone unable to defend Themselves Oh ... Your Arsenal ! We may seem cold, or We may even be The most depressing people you've ever known At heart, what's left, we sadly know That we are the last truly British people you'll ever know We are the last truly British people you will ever know You'll never never want to know'
The obvious meaning of the song didn't stop John Harris in the NME from declaring:
'There are moments on this record when the hints of hideous political sympathies that have provided his detractors with new ammunition become full-frontal reminders of why Morrissey needed taking to task in the first place. Here, "England for the English", the line from 'National Front Disco' that began life as a non-committal slogan stolen from someone else's mouth, sounds worryingly like a sincere clarion call - and after a two-minute feedback coda Morrissey announces that he was thinking of releasing the song as a single. Very clever move.It's not the only chilling moment, either. You listen to 'We'll Let You Know', the song that talks about bovver-booted beer lads as "the last truly British people you'll ever know", visualise Morrissey wrapping himself in the flag in front of a backdrop featuring two skinheads, and feel slightly sick.'
Is this stupidity on Harris' part, or wilful misrepresentation?
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:11 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:12 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:14 (twenty years ago) link
― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:20 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:24 (twenty years ago) link
It ain't got Dizzee Rascal on it, that's what's wrong with the cunt.
― Jus' A Rascal! Dizzee Rascal!!, Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:33 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:35 (twenty years ago) link
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:37 (twenty years ago) link
― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:38 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:39 (twenty years ago) link
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:44 (twenty years ago) link
we're taking Just keeping The population down You're giving, giving, giving Well, it's your own fault For reproducing We're just keeping The population down
sounds like an editorial to me, a claim to gay virtue straight out of some radical crusading gay magazine.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:44 (twenty years ago) link
― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:46 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:46 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:48 (twenty years ago) link
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:49 (twenty years ago) link
― Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:50 (twenty years ago) link
of course you could say that its a claim to virtue in celibacy
― zappi (joni), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:52 (twenty years ago) link
― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 13 November 2003 15:57 (twenty years ago) link
You forgot Mortiis.
I like Suzy's point because I made a similar one in an a.m.a. review of Maladjusted when it came out, ie that somehow the Smiths had both won (the obvious influences and connections via all the bands that Suzy lists) and lost (Moz's beloved pop obsessions of the past had become even MORE of the past, and even more now -- not merely in the passage of time sense, but the new combinations of mainstream pop and presentation since).
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 13 November 2003 16:28 (twenty years ago) link
― Mary (Mary), Monday, 17 November 2003 20:00 (twenty years ago) link
I love how googling "Stevie Smith" and "Morrissey" together takes me to an OTM Momus post from years ago. Stevie Smith's poetry is very reminiscent of Morrissey's lyrics and themes.
― Cunga, Tuesday, 8 December 2009 20:03 (fourteen years ago) link
I'm still back on "it's an uplifting song because, even though she's so hideous no one will ever love or want her, she can dress herself"
― Huckabee Jesus lifeline (HI DERE), Tuesday, 8 December 2009 20:11 (fourteen years ago) link