Madonna deserves her own thread(s), and here's mine...

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Madonna is a woman in her forties whose tour is named after a JG Ballard novel, who uses extreme manga in her stage show, plays Johny Thunders guitar over IDM noise, sings about parricide and auto-cannibalism, collaborates with Algerian-French glitch merchants, and does a show consisting 99% material from her PREVIOUS TWO ALBUMS. Madonna has a massive audience. Paul McCartney and the Stones do not do new material. Kid 606 does not play stadiums and is not a woman in her forties. 80s popstars either hit the holiday camps or leapt into musical 'maturity'/dullness. Madonna is a woman in her forties who plays the same venues as Britney (not to mention J*net) and competes in the musical arena with Kid 606. McCartney and the Stones (I hate to keep repeaing their names, but Elvis is dead) won't play anything after 1970, while the thought of Madonna collaborating with Slipknot is not entirely shocking. Oh, and she's a woman in her forties, who releases records that sell in large quantities.

I just wanted to share how momentous I find this. However much people talk about her, and I know it's a lot, it's still NOT ENOUGH. I turned the TV off after the actual show, because there was yet another doc on Madonna-as-ambition etc. Why? Why do the words 'ambition', 'hunger', etc etc keep coming up? When perhaps 'artistic' and 'brilliance' should be thrown into the mix more. Maybe even 'genius'. And I'm not a fucking romantic either, I believe genius is a function/motor/whatever of 'craft'. Another word never mentioned in proximity with 'Madonna', when it bloody well should be. In fact, 'Craft' would've been the PERFECTLY assertive triumphalist album title for her last one, but 'Music' did the job well enough. David Bowie would've called an album 'Music' if he was smart enough to figure out how to keep people interested in his little games - unfortunately, he wasn't. Unlike Madonna. Who's far beyond playing little games anyway.

Don't stop now Madge. But even if you do, you're still the greatest ever!

dave q, Sunday, 2 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

I have been obsessing over Music. Innovation plus Pop Smarts = Godess !

anthony, Sunday, 2 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

elvis is not dead, otherwise i agree, except for when she plays guitar...her attempt at authenticity doesn't sit well with her postmodern pastiches.

Geoff, Sunday, 2 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

If only I could admit to enjoying her recently. Which I don't. Ned's Cockamamie Theory for Himself: my second decade matching the eighties and all, pretty much, Madonna was all over my consciousness by default, even before I had MTV. And this was a good thing, and I value my Immaculate Collection disc to this day, though the only standalone album I ever owned was Like a Virgin. But with Erotica and after, I couldn't care anymore. It was like "Vogue" and "Justify My Love" drew a line under where she connected for me, and now she does things which I can't and don't find myself enjoying when I hear them, genre exercises at best. The Bowie comparison is smart -- but I'd argue she's just as prone to hamhanded adaptations of other sounds as he is these days. All I can do is shrug -- I don't begrudge her success and staying power in the slightest, but that's about it (not to mention the fact that "Music" the song was one of the *worst* singles I've heard in a long time -- garbage).

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 2 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Madonna is a good businesswomen at reinventing her image. The musical brilliance accredited to her is due from her songwriters and producers. Ya, she is selling out venues that usually Britney only sells out. Keep in mind that her "tour" is about only 12 dates making the demand for tickets pretty high. Not like she's pulling a springsteen or anything. By the way, Bon Jovi and U2 (who are just about as old as Madonna) remind me of some 80s popstars that have been selling out arenas. And their tours werea also based on NEW materials. By the way, there is stuff after 1970 that McCartney and the Stones play. In fact, your nuts. About 75% of McCartney's setlist is after 1970. He is playing his solo stuff, not a beatles set. Your post is a little inaccurate.

Luptune Pitman, Sunday, 2 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Dead right Ned, that Music single was atrocious. Julie Birchell ripped into it nicely in the Guardian last year. Madonna has become the quintessential mutton dressed as lamb old slapper around town. What’s really annoying and cringe inducing is the way all these tosspot C list British celebs are around her like flies to horseshit, worshipping her every move. People in the States are probably well sick of the sight of her so she comes over to afflict this side of the water with her less than mediocre product.

David Gunnip, Monday, 3 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

i'm gunna write more on it somewhere soon, but the drowned world show on sat was UTTERLY FANTASTIC and BEYOND

(J.Burchill = sold-out bodyfascist of zero consequence; her opinions abt music have always been negligeable, even if she does "like" hear'say...)

mark s, Monday, 3 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I was about to say, being aligned with Julie actually disappoints me. But I suspect her reasons, like Mark S indicated, were probably odd, as opposed to my reason, which was that the song bugged the shit out of me. ;-)

I'm sure she put on a show. Not enough to justify my paying the ticket price, though.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 3 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Isn't thee only reason our JuLIeeeEEEee likes hear'say, abt them not being WHORES LIKE ALL THEM ACTORS ARE (goes on abt what whores actors are for rest ov page: ding! several thousand pounds, please!)


|\|0|2/|\4|\| |=4'/, Monday, 3 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Am I the only person who enjoys reading the writings of the Burchill? But then I must confess, I only do so cos she's totally bananas.

DG, Monday, 3 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

I enjoy thee utterances ov burchill, 4 thee same reasons as DG, but I wish she'd shut the fux0r up abt actors & actresses. It's very boring.

|\|0|2/|\4|\| |=4'/, Monday, 3 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Alright, here comes the ruckus: I HATE MADONNA MORE THAN ANYTHING. Yes, her music in the eighties was classic, if not immortal, but erotica and everything that came after it was totally narcissistic, trend-hopping, corporate pop. She is a business woman who's product is pop sound bytes that latch onto momentary fads. It was bad enuogh in the late 90's when she was copying Bjork (circa '93), but "Music" is by far the low point of her career.

Timothy, Monday, 3 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

I know Julie Burchill isn't relevent and all that but she hit out at Music on purely musical terms. Forget what she said now but I recall it being spot on!!

David Gunnip, Tuesday, 4 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

I love it when people say "Madonna's '80s work (i.e. the stuff that's finally become rockist-accepted) was brilliant, but her '90s work is corporate trend-hopping". Can someone, anyone, everyone, God himself please explain to me how her '80s work wasn't corporate trend- hopping? That's what she does and she does it well.

Quite frankly, I also think anyone who doesn't see how great Erotica is is a moron, but that's just my personal controversial opinion, don't take it too seriously.

Ally, Tuesday, 4 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

'Erotica' - word.

dave q, Tuesday, 4 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Alright. I don't really have time to smudgeon my virginal posting at ILM with unwarranted personal histories, but this...this is just TOO strange. I was just innocently surfing the internet rabidly grabbing as much of the pseudo-insights as I could from I fell upon this sight. Didn't even know it existed (even though I'm a veteran of certain music-communities on the 'net and am all too familiar with the "interesting" world of And now, scrolling through here..I have already run through a "Fred Solinger" whom I emailed, and now this. Wow.

Forgoing any more pretensions to familiarity, let me just strive for the direct and not pay any attention to netiquette that might demand a sensitivity towards identity-recreations:****** Lulu, is that you? ******

'Cause this is the ol' Xeva438 from the Madonna newsgroup of old. If it is you, you may or may not remember talking occasionally eons ago (like, 1998). Jesus Christ, I can't believe it if it really is the same you and Fred, even though I do think that I recognize that email address (garance something). Weren't you supposed to get married to Fred or something? Aaron really wondered what happened to you, and oh, guess what? I met "A" in person (goes to my college) and (yeah, it's a he, duh) - he is actually going to the September 13th performance of Drowned World. If I had talked to him recently (like, in the past 24 minutes?) and told him I saw YOU (youwere always his favorite), I am sure he would beseech me to tell you he says "hi" right now. So, if you really are Lulu: "hi" in advance from "A." (It's Andrew, in case you ever wondered).

Hey, you were a Virgo, right? Ok, I should stop here andnot crossthe line anymore with my freakishly random memory. I mean, look at this: I can remember British spice-girl fans' sun signs from three years ago, but I can't remember where I put my keys/books/things two seconds ago. Amazing.

Vic, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Anyway, to now contribute at least a semi-relevant note: **Erotica** is actually Madonna's second greatest album, no joke, right after Like a Prayer. In fact it cold even be argued that it is her number 1, the pinnacle or apotheosis of her pop-myth-ambition [ I mean, sure her pre-'89 work is tuneful but does it carry any weight?] it's a total deconstruction of her pop-playacting and the self-mocking sexual appropriations of her past, as well as being a commentary on sexual personae in general (see the original Rolling Stone rating, her first album to get 4 stars) with "Dita" in tow, fear-mongering in the age of AIDs (the first dance-pop album, hell one of the first *mainstream* pop albums, to address theissue in song form), one of the darkest club/house albums that totally articulated the seedier sides of clubgoing culture (that say, Deeelite could never do) and well, the subtext. Of course, it's a totally ironic record (which Sex tried to be also, but failed purely on function & principle) and cannot be given a simple, literate reading. And the greatest subtext is this: its still the only full-length mainstream album in rock/pop history to serve as an extended discourse on a homosexual relatiionship, and perhaps homophobia in general (or maybe the rockist reaction she herself was anticipating; "disco sucks" has greater roots in homophobia than anything else! but that's for another post, after all thisis my first here!).

I'm notkidding. Minus the jaw-droppingly compelling "Bad Girl" (still her best written ballad, greatest Fincher-helmed video) and of course, the entire record could be seen as a homosexual/transgendered narrative. I mean, with lines like "Never gonna hide it again/never gonna have to pretend!" Deeper & Deeper could be the most discofied coming-out anthem side of Diana Ross. Even the title suggests anal sex; Just a few more examples: Waiting's "what do I remind you of... a part of yourself you just can't love?" in response to a closeted lover. All the girlie songs = drag queens. All of Why's It So Hard...I mean, hello! Just look at that title. Secret Garden. And on it goes..

The genius thing is that the text forever remains as interesting as the various subtexts; oh, and if you think I'm just pulling all of this out of my ass, I may be (I have a vey interesting ass), but I am just happening to take a class that expounds on Madonna and includes an entire article on Erotica by Simon Frith which no, I haven't even gotten to reading yet. It's just that I'm not totally alone in seeing it as a remarkable album, a bit removed fromthe rest of her straightforward catalog, and well, it's undergoing a serious re- evaluation now (as the tour is sparking a slight academic revival of Madonnica). What I meant to say in this paragraph is that: you could take these songs in a surface, pop-only matter, or for their deeper subversive edge which mocks Madonna's own pop-history. Its paradoxically a very emotional album and a vey unemotional one (criticizing as it does the anonymous, frequently mechanical nature of homosexual cruising and pairing through her infamously cold delivery and its production) that is all about Madonna and her history, yet remains faceless, opaque: revealing absolutely everything about her and the {gay/house} culture she came from, while simultaneously revealing ***nothing at all. ***

She has never been able to do that again, prviding such an opaque one- way mirror, even though she tried on Music and failed miserably, succumbing to banal sentimentality. I am far from the type of fan who loves everything she does or puts her on a pedestal - hell no. I hated this last album, down to the generic title, andthought it was utter, witless shite; Bedtime Stories, for all of its trendy soothing charm, was objectively speaking pretty fucking boring too. Not Madonna at all, really; a reactionary, ingratiating stance, designed to win her way back into the mainstream after Erotica's individualistic ideology. Hell, I don't even really play Ray of Light or the Immaculaste Collection (and never her oldies) regularly ....Eroticais the only album if hers I really listen to, as I consider it her most complex, interesting and addictive, both musically and lyrically.

Vic, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Ok, I promise this to be my last one: :)

As for me saying above that this work is undergoing a serious re- evaluation right now, I wasn't kidding. Manhattan's Jim Farber (famous rock crit) just went through re-grading/rating all of Madonna's old albums in Entertainment Weekly (yeah I know, the epitome of celebrity-schmaltzing-shit)due to the frenzy over her tour and heck, he gave Erotica a B+ and gave Like a Prayer a B ! (For the record though, he gave Music an A, which makes his views circumspect). CDnow did a whole feature on Erotica and reviewed it brilliantly - and they toreup Music pretty good (thankfully) - and U.K.'s (are most of you Brits in here anyway? I'm so lost as to the backgrounds of this community) Q music mag listed Erotica pretty high (well relatively to Bedtime Stories, at least!) in their Madonna - buying guide. They hated Bedtime Stories, but NME loved it, but who actually relies on NME to purchase records anyway? They are for entertainment. Also, Erotica got a pretty nice rating in the latest edition of the Rockhound Guide, with them saying itst henext Madonna album to buy after Immaculate and also jumped a few hundred spots in that annual Virgin poll of greatest albums ever (not that that poll means *anything*, since if I recall, TWO Radiohead albums made the top 10!! of all time!). Of course, a total re- evaluation isn't necessary in all quarters: besides RS, Spin gave it a recommended review when it first came out (even though Guccione Jr. bashed her for Sex, vociferously), the N.Y. Times' Jon Pareles liked it from the beginning and the Village Voice's dean-critic Rob Christgau bravely championed it, giving it a glowing review (it finished tied at #21 on the Pazz & Jop poll of that year too, so any of these persistent views of it being a "critcally failed" album are just media-creations.....and NO, none of her 80s albums save for Prayer even cracked the Pazz & Jop top 40, and since the poll is regarded as the final say in annual music criticism, you can see how this is significant. Janet's Control was a crit-darling though!)He still defends it, and again gae it an A- in his latest Album Guide of the 90s. But the big one:

..this really sort of surprised me, but the biggest evidence I can cite for the Erotica-re-evaluation is none other than Jim DeRogatis. Yeah. Mr. Chicago Sun Times was also regrading her catalog a la Farber dueto her Drowned stop in that city, and while he still bashed her early material (blasphemously giving True Blue the lowest rating: 1 star out of 4!!), he gave Erotica, the HIGHEST rating of 3.5 stars, while beating out Like a Prayer's 3, remniscient of Farber. He said "I confess to seriously underrating it when it came out with a 2.5". Goddamnit, this is Jim DeRogatis, probably America's most incendiary, notorious working crit who has the "only-love-it-if-it- RAWKS" rep, who idolizes Lester Bangs...he, of all people, is going back out of his way to give Erotica high marks?

When fucking DeRogatis re-rates an album almost a decade after it's release, you can be confident that the revisionism towards Erotica has begun (surely helped in no small part by the crit-success of her last two). I would have liked to see the famous Chicago Tribune's [Greg] Kot's re-ratings as well, but he only wrote a lengthy article on her/hercontinued relevance. Oh well.. (maybe they talked about it on the rock radio show they have)

I'm really sorry to go on and on about it. =) It's just that Erotica is probably one of my favorite albums of the decade and I felt I had todefend it a bit after reading all these messages; it's sandwiched in there between To Bring You My Love and Maxinquaye in my top three. =) I had no choice butto come to its rescue. I'll leave now with these words from a friend of mine from another message board who can articulate much better than I can (I saved it), on Erotica. And he's a heavy metal fan too! - just that he loved Madonna/this album.

" On its terms, on its difficult, flawed, self-negations, Erotica is an authentic American masterwork. . In fact, beneath this cold satire belies a tortured sexuality which mirrors the Stones's celebration/condemnation of rock-n-roll hedonism.

It's conclusion? There are no answers; only pleasure that which leads to another downward spiral. Madonna dared rock to go down with her.Instead, we wore more flannel, grew stubble, and screamed some more. Like the macho, self-righteous heroic MEN we are. :) "

In other words (his Stones metaphor means, in my opinion):...Erotica is Madonna's Exile on Main Street. =)

signing off,


Vic, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

I have already run through a "Fred Solinger"

Did he like it? Go ahead and hit em up style!

I think "Music" the single is fantastic. The off-kilter electro start-stoppyness of it all you know.

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Oh my god. Hi, yeah, you got the right person. That's wicked bizarre. I was A's favorite? That surprises me, I was pretty sure I was pretty well hated on that NG for stating that Ray of Light was not all that and a bag of chips, at least that's what half of my emails said. I'm not a Virgo - Fred is though, maybe that's the confusion. Aaron wonders about me? Tell him to email me, I'll give him the 411. I am actually engaged, not to Fred Solinger though...that's so bizarre to run across people like this again :)

Anyway, I believe we've gone over and over the Erotica thing in the past (a big decisive split amongst the Madonna faithful - those who like Erotica and those who don't just plain don't get along at all), and you might or might not recall that I agreed with your views 100%. The subtext of the album is fascinating, but just besides that, almost all of it sounds great. Bad Girl is sumptuous, Waiting is fierce, Erotica is a classic, Deeper and Deeper is fantastic (and the self-referentialness of the ending cracks me up), Rain is one of Madonna's most gorgeous songs. I could go on and on and on. It trails off a bit towards the end but it's still a good solid chunk of music, and I find it to be her most consistent work. Like a Prayer is a good album butI still think it's terribly overrated - undoubtably Express Yourself and Like a Prayer are two of the best things Madonna's ever done, but stuff like the Prince duet and Dear Jesse make me cringe.

I've noticed a huge "reevaluation" of Erotica myself, but then again I didn't notice a huge dissing of it when it first came out. It's curious - or maybe the right word is "expected" - but it wasn't until after SEX was released that the album started getting trashed (and even worse when Body of Evidence came out). The problem with SEX was that the public wasn't ready for it combined with the fact that unfortunately Madonna didn't get her point across very eloquently. If she'd never done SEX, I don't think this would even be a discussion.

Ally, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Ally does raise an interesting issue regarding the context of the record -- Sex, Body of Evidence, etc. It did all get a bit swamped there. For my part, it's also interesting that Erotica was the first Madonna album I had seen without any of the *videos* since her debut album. See, the album came out right when I moved to UCI and where I lived had no cable at all, and for the first time in about seven years I had no MTV, period, and in fact I haven't regularly watched it at all since (though I've had cable again for the past five years or so). I still haven't seen any of the videos from the album, and without saying that that's the main reason she makes music is to make the videos, clearly she's somebody who is terribly conscious about using them to expand/revamp/play around with her songs. It's possible I might have a different perspective on Erotica had I seen them, but who knows? I am intrigued to see it rated so highly and so passionately now, but it was still such a non-experience for me that I don't know what more to say.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Tags, tags, tags.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

The videos for Erotica were all uniformly excellent, despite the presence of the evil godawful Sofia Coppola in the Deeper & Deeper vid.

Ally, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Vic - I agree that 'Erotica' is 100% classic. One of my all-time top 5. However, "Rain" is better than "Bad Girl". Also, not only is it 'Exile', it's 'Coney Island Baby' (and I mean that in a GOOD way) at the same time. Also, 'Bedtime Stories' = 'Fresh'

dave q, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

"Yeah. Mr. Chicago Sun Times was also regrading her catalog a la Farber dueto her Drowned stop in that city, and while he still bashed her early material (blasphemously giving True Blue the lowest rating: 1 star out of 4!!)"

Blasphemy, alright. That album deserves 3.5/4 just for "White Heat" alone. Madonna is probably REALLY embarassed about that song, which is why it's so good. Plus it has some of her most underrated singles on it as well. Not as good as Erotica, obviously.

EdwardO, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

The opening of White Heat is fantastic.

Ally, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Also, 'Erotica' 'probably' better than 'Like a Prayer'? Don't be silly, 'Erotica' is so much better it's on a higher evolutionary level. In fact, my pick for the 'worst song by favorite artis' thread is that one where she goes on about how crap it was being married to Sean Penn, if she'd waited to see what would happen to his career I'd don't she'd have bothered.

dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Yeah, I'm amazingly with dave on this. Why is Like a Prayer so damned revered by rock crits? Has anyone ever explained this?

Ally, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Ally - easy, 'Like a Prayer' is 'about' girly stuff, y'know, feelings and bad marriages and fathers and stuff, like a Joni Mitchell album, and "Cherish" is like, "Don't worry! I'm still that pop chick out of 'Desperately Seeking Susan' with the big crucifixes and mesh". Whereas 'Erotica' is a cold blast of heat (great oxymoron), Formula One control, Nico on steroids and poppers (no more bridal outfits in gondolas here), and if you want to attribute the resulting Salem-like howls of 'corporate muzik' to the same dull old s*xism I fear you're right. (And as I'm sure cursory followers of this board are aware, I'm hardly the most sensitive liberated guy around...)

dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

About RS's rating - it's true, and they DID mention that it was on a whole other level of intelligence than 'Prayer'. Which has to be the one time in 30 billion that RS was spot on. A thousand monkeys and typewriters...

dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

The opening of White Heat comes from the James Cagney film the song was dedicated to. Never liked that song, but le me embarass myself now: am I the ONLY (relatively sane) individual who likes Jimmy Jimmy?

Yeah, believe me, I think it's really bizarre. ;) Ally, "A" always appreciated your wit. (Of course, I got to see your picture so I appreciated other things, too). I know you didn't care for Ray of Light but never minded' it was only the ("real") fan-atics and sick- sychophants who objected. And when did we ever pay attetion to them? :P As for giving Aaron a message, I'm afraid I can't do that since I haven't posted there in years myself. It sort of imploded when a schizo started spamming the place.

I don't really know if viewing the videos would have made such a great difference in your appreciation of the music, but if it's helped you on earlier albums (I myself can't stand to listen to the first one without visuals - just can't stomach the voice on half the cuts) you might want to give her '93-'99 video collection a try. The best videos, Bad Girl and Rain, are on there; Bad Girl was basically everything Body of Evidence SHOULD have been - an arresting, tragic narrative on the promiscuous life of a self-loathing "liberated" woman - propelled by David Fincher's razor sharp direction and. Another Christopher Walken contribution to the art of video (he plays an angel? demon? cigarette dispatcher? aerobics master - WHAT?), gotta love that. =) Cinematography, still the most accomplished. Rain was cultural appropriation of the highest order, with the Japanese studio-characters providing a nice contrast to the endless depth of Madonna's aquamarine contact lenses. (For cultural appropriation of the lowest order, check out "Nothing Really Matters.") I think Erotica and Deeper & Deeper are effective too; still don't understand why they got left off. Fever was the only one that was lame in spots (the flower covering the vagina spots, in particular). Deeper & Deeper was the video, after all, that spear-headed the entire 70s' retro-fashion chic with her "video shoot" in the middle of it. Well that and Eddie Vedder's neo-classical locks, : ) made the 90s into the 70s again starting in '92! Thank god we didn'tcontinue on with wherever the 80s were going, fashion-wise...

I wrote Fred Solinger an email, he never replied. Ah well...

And yeah, Sophia sucks. Virgin Suicides sucked *big* time, but I love the Air score...

:P Vic

Vic, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

More ridiculous album comparisons - 'Erotica' is what 'Diamond Dogs' could've been if DB wasn't such a genteel spineless art-school fence- sitter. (And I LIKE 'Diamond Dogs')

dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Going 'deeper and deeper' - DB needed all that nose candy just to achieve that clear, pitiless, single-minded vision (music + lyrics) that Madonna just HAD. (Has?)

dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Haha, I actually like Davey and haven't heard DD, so I cannot comment.

Hey Ally, if you don't mind me asking: what *is* your sign anyway ? Still have a Spice Girl appreciation-thing going on, or has that branched out into A-teens/All-Saints fandom? Just curious. ;P


Vic, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

Well, I'm a Taurus, if it matters, I don't mind sharing :)

Anyhow, I do think Dave is right and it's been something I've thought for a while: the complete disregard for Erotica does come down to, on some level, sexism. There have been loads of male rock stars who've gone as far as Madonna, but I don't see anyone raising much of an eyebrow, besides the extreme right. Madonna does it and it becomes an "issue".

As for Like a Prayer, I think that's a good point, that it's a very girly, feminine, pink-elephants-and-lemonaide type of album. It's like a musical version of a stereotypical slumber party. Erotica, on the other hand, is a very hard edge album (by Madonna standards), and as such comes off as "inappropriately" masculine. *shrugs* But I always thought that sort of traipsing back and forth between stereotypes in art was supposed to be applauded, not vilified. At least when the aforementioned David Bowie does it ;)

Ally, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (sixteen years ago) Permalink

nine years pass...


geeta, Monday, 20 June 2011 00:15 (seven years ago) Permalink

great first paragraph there

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, 20 June 2011 00:18 (seven years ago) Permalink

best opening post to an ilx thread ever?

it just brings you back to the basic fact that, yknow, cut through everything - god i love madonna

the smoke cloud of pure hatred (lex pretend), Monday, 20 June 2011 01:17 (seven years ago) Permalink

i just found some demos dave q sent me eight years ago, for an ambitious concept album he was working on based on donna summer's 'bad girls'. i wonder if he ever did any madonna covers.

geeta, Monday, 20 June 2011 02:20 (seven years ago) Permalink

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