Defend the indefensible - Bob Dylan.

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
I'd rather shovel bees down my dick than listen to old croaky throat.

Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 16:43 (nineteen years ago) link

:( everything i love gets torn to pieces on this board

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 17:30 (nineteen years ago) link

This thread question is the most evocative thing I've ever read. (That's a bad thing.)

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 17:33 (nineteen years ago) link

Prepare the shovel and the hive! Long live the queen!

Emilymv (Emilymv), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 17:44 (nineteen years ago) link

Iggy Pop in the new Spin: "Dylan couldn't sing. But he sang better than most people who could sing." bullseye.

M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 17:48 (nineteen years ago) link

Dnftt

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 17:52 (nineteen years ago) link

exactly. dylan was never a technically good singer. and yet i love to hear him sing, his delivery is superb.

Bob Shaw (Bob Shaw), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 17:59 (nineteen years ago) link

You know the whole point of this ... ah fuck it.

NA (Nick A.), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:18 (nineteen years ago) link

Have I out-grossed Dan Perry? I have? Wonderful!

Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:19 (nineteen years ago) link

he COULD sing what are you talking about Matos?

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:34 (nineteen years ago) link

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAA Is this thread like that Nick Drake thread, a big joke?

Because if it's not I may cry.

scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:35 (nineteen years ago) link

ok i guess his voice--the one he was born with--had a limited range which he struggled mightily against, one reason why his voice is now completely shot. i suppose that's what matos/iggy means. but he did do some remarkable things with intervals and strange successions of notes and so on, and tricky melodies which are suprisingly difficult to negotiate for so-called "folk" music...though i guess this too is what iggy/matos were alluding to.

so apologies.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:38 (nineteen years ago) link

arguing about whether or not dylan could sing well or not seems like dredging up some flat earth shit, some pre-copernican dark ages how many angels on the head of a pin shit...

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:46 (nineteen years ago) link

Dylan invented the first-person narrative for rock n roll. Before him, no one cared what any specific performer had to say, everyone's lyrics were as generic and impersonal as possible so as to have the widest possible appeal (hence all the love songs). Before Dylan, there's pretty much nobody working in a personal voice, complete with complex metaphors and oblique cultural references. When Dylan sang you were listening to HIM get across his point of view, or what he wanted you to think was his point of view. That kind of direct communication of an interior world had not happened before in rock n roll.

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:48 (nineteen years ago) link

i suppose don't live in your world, fritz. roger ebert announced flatly in his recent column that dylan "can't sing," which suggests to me that a lot of people share that opinion.

(x-post)

shakey that's not true.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:49 (nineteen years ago) link

Chuck Berry and Lieber-Stoller to thread

M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:50 (nineteen years ago) link

"Dylan invented the first-person narrative for rock n roll. Before him, no one cared what any specific performer had to say, everyone's lyrics were as generic and impersonal as possible so as to have the widest possible appeal" - I love Dylan but this is bullshit and I'm pretty sure he'd agree with me.

cinniblount (James Blount), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:52 (nineteen years ago) link

Lieber-Stoller are a songwriting team, NOT performers. This is a major distinction.

Chuck Berry is a nut, true, but you can boil all of his songs down to really generic topics tailor made for youthful infatuations of the day(sex, "rocking", cars, etc.)

Prove me wrong, kids.

And I don't care if Dylan would agree with me or not, what does that have to do with anything?

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:53 (nineteen years ago) link

Dnftt

Mr. Diamond (diamond), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:56 (nineteen years ago) link

"prove"--as if your evidence is of an incontrovertible scientific nature.

i think dylan took allusiveness and obliqueness to new levels in rock lyrics, but the problem fritz is with your assertion that such attributes were entirely new. you're guilty of hyberbole, that's all.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:56 (nineteen years ago) link

ok, dumbass...if it needs to be that spelt out for you, start at WOODY GUTHRIE and work back from there

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:57 (nineteen years ago) link

i'm sorry, "new levels" is a frighteningly stupid phrase. i simply meant that dylan's lyrics were often more abstract than had appeared before in rock. but that's a no-brainer.

(x-post)

fritz: huh?

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:57 (nineteen years ago) link

oh wait i'm getting fritz and "shakey mo" mixed up.

1,000 apologies.

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:58 (nineteen years ago) link

(that was for shakeyand i think you're confusing me w/ him/her, amateurist)

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:58 (nineteen years ago) link

haha!!

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:59 (nineteen years ago) link

THE JOYS OF SIMULTANEITY

amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 18:59 (nineteen years ago) link

by the way, I'm really curious for some examples these complex Dylan metaphors you speak of.

M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:01 (nineteen years ago) link

Example that's not a metaphor is Dylan's use of pronouns. He was an expert at pronouns. Pronouns would abstract his songs so that they could have several meanings dependent on the way they were sung, the accents on which word, which syllable, etc. I'm thinking of 'Idiot Wind' and songs like that, 'Desolation Row' maybe, where he'd change a pronoun here and there and it would open up a whole new meaning for the song, a whole new way. I wish I had a more concrete example in my head but... brilliant.

scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:07 (nineteen years ago) link

I can't quite make out what anyone is trying to say to me. Fritz, if you were addressing your Woody Guthrie crack to me, uhm Woody Guthrie is not a rock n roll artist.

Amateurist: hyperbolic, eh maybe. But really, I can't think of a single performer who placed such a heavy premium on rock n roll as a vehicle for personal expression (or the illusion thereof) prior to Dylan. Elvis was a personality, but it was obvious right from the beginning he was singing other people's songs, directed by others, singing in an established idiom (blues lyrics), etc. With Dylan, you had someone forcing you to listen to a language and delivery that was highly individualized, way more so than anyone before him. I'm not knocking his many predecessors or the styles they worked in, I just think Dylan was at the crux of a massive shift in the language of rock, and that makes him pretty, er, "defensible".

Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:08 (nineteen years ago) link

Everyone talks about what great lyrics Dylan writes, blah, blah, blah. Fact is, I fell in love with his sound -- and yes, his voice -- long before I even listened to the words.

Jazzbo (jmcgaw), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:09 (nineteen years ago) link

Elvis was a personality, but it was obvious right from the beginning he was singing other people's songs, directed by others, singing in an established idiom (blues lyrics), etc. With Dylan, you had someone forcing you to listen to a language and delivery that was highly individualized, way more so than anyone before him.

I understand what you're trying to say, Shakey, but this is fallacious. number one, Elvis directed his own sessions most of the time--something his nominal producers (Sam Phillips, Felton Jarvis) have said on the record numerous times. two, casting Elvis as merely a "blues singer" ignores not only the dozens of other things going on in his music at any given time, especially his vocal style. three, that delivery was as highly individualized as anything Dylan did--Elvis just had a prettier voice to deliver it with.

M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:18 (nineteen years ago) link

cut that "not only" pls. thanks

M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:18 (nineteen years ago) link

yes woody guthrie was not Rock N Roll per se, but it's pretty safe to say that he would've been if he'd been 20 yrs younger - but anyway...
dylan covered/ripped off/was inspired by 100's of artists who embodied the characteristics you describe... tons of rockers wrote and performed their own stuff pre-1963 and lots of it was personal/political/"complex" etc...eg Bobby Fuller (I Fought The Law), Chuck Berry (check out "Promised Land" for a start... even "Brown-Eyed Handsome Man" talks about being "arrested on charges of unemployment" - pretty political if you think about it),Buddy Holly & how about Little Richard being a screaming homo & singing a song called Tutti Fruitti and getting on the radio ...wasn't that radical, allusive, etc.? ... and that's not even getting into like John Lee Hooker, Muddy Waters, Howlin Wolf etc

Dylan was great, and we was an innovator but he didn't INVENT what you ascribe to him

Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:20 (nineteen years ago) link

Good point, Jazzbo. I fell in love with the sound, too, the voice, the simple chord changes, the melodies, the repitition. You come for the sound, but you stay for the lyrics. They're what makes Dylan eternally rewarding.

scott m (mcd), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:22 (nineteen years ago) link

and obviously your larger point--that Dylan was more ruggedly individualistic than any rocker before him--stands. I'm not arguing w/that at all, just with that very 60s-centric idea that 50s rock wasn't individualistic. I think the individualism of a lot of that stuff comes through in performances, and since rock tends to be a performance-based medium it counts for a lot. plus Chuck Berry is a better (and every bit as individualistic) lyricist no matter how easy it is to group his themes. anyway, you can do that w/Dylan, too: hipster-bitching, love, protest, breakup, that kind of thing.

M Matos (M Matos), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:23 (nineteen years ago) link

he may not have had the best voice, but his lyrics are pretty much unrivaled. and his songs are great. don't even step to this.

King Kobra (King Kobra), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:24 (nineteen years ago) link

Shriek!

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:25 (nineteen years ago) link

On the other hand...
http://www.new-pony.com/pic/Heartsss.jpg

Chuck Tatum (Chuck Tatum), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:31 (nineteen years ago) link

Jazzbo OTM.

The value of Bob Dylan is connected to the voice. The 'can't sing' thing.... I think the word 'singer' is used too often, like some people think the word 'genius' is used too often. Dylan really sings. If you don't hear this, just don't bother. The lyrics are good, mostly, fantastic occasionally, but really the point of them is not to let the voice down.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:44 (nineteen years ago) link

Bob Dylan is a vocalist, not a singer.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 19:52 (nineteen years ago) link

I'd rather shovel bees down my dick than listen to old croaky throat.

HAhahahahahahahahaha. That made my day. I personally don't enjoy Bob Dylan's music at all. Never have. I've tried, mind you (after a good friend's tireless insistence that in dismissing Bob Dylan that I'm shamefully missing out on the greatest music known to man), but it just isn't there for me. That said, I'd hardly call him "indefensible". If anything. The man's deified to ridiculous degrees, and you're verily taking your life in your hands if you dare say anything against him (or at least around stodgy folkies, roots rockers, aging hippies, self-appointed poetry "slammers", aging rock critics, etc. etc.) I don't think the man should be put to death or anything, but I just don't enjoy his music.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 20:54 (nineteen years ago) link

I actually haven't seen that level of Beatles-style Dylan-deifying that Alex describes (maybe I've been sheltered). If anything, it seems like Dylan's "legacy" is pretty compromised and conflicted in a lot of ways. Dylan's fiercest advocates include a fair number of staunch '60s-Dylan fans who maintain that most of his '70s work is crap, since it lacks the "revolutionary poetics" of Highway 61/Blonde on Blonde (see, for example - or rather, don't - Dave Marsh's entry in the old Rolling Stone record guide). Then there's the standard chuckling/bemusement at Dylan's sometimes odd shifts in perspective (especially the Christian thing) and bizarre film outings, etc. Not to mention the standard feeling among most of the casual listening population that Dylan "can't sing."

Sam J. (samjeff), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:04 (nineteen years ago) link

Perry OTM - Dylan actually TRYING to see (Lay Lady Lay etc) comes over terribly and just lacks the serrated edge of the original quacking 60s Dylan material.

Was Dylan the first real example of the best rock and roll vocal device ever, the SNEER? If so, he deserves canonisation just for that, regardless of any of the other factors. (Thom Yorke and John Lydon to thread.)

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:05 (nineteen years ago) link

I used to agree with Alex and Nick back in school, but somewhere down the line a lot of his stuff started to connect (esp. Blood On Tracks, Highway 61). I think a big part for me enjoying what he was saying so much that his voice become friendly and more enjoyable. That said, the deification he receives made it hard for me to notice the humor cuz I was too busy looking for the grand wisdom (Chuck's second book and seeing Don't Look Back helped a bunch).

Then again, if I like Fred Durst's voice, it should be any surprise I can handle Dylan's.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:08 (nineteen years ago) link

Dylan seems sort of like rock's most popular "cult figure" in a way - despite the big gestures of respect always made in his direction, he's a little odd, his voice is weird, even his biggest fans often rail against some of his albums, etc. And so he seems like more of a commonly accepted "acquired taste" than, again, someone like the Beatles, who are truly deified to ridiculous degrees, in almost every aspect of their career.

Sam J. (samjeff), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:10 (nineteen years ago) link

His voice is the first thing that puts me off, but I've gotten over voices before (I used to hate Tom Waits for the very same reason, but have since changed my ways and have come to quite enjoy his music). It's more than that, though. With Dylan, perhaps I'm repelled by what I hear in his work as sanctimony. Yes, I know he's capable of being funny (purists inevitably wheel out the example of "Rainy Day Women nubmer whatever hamana hamana hamana..."), but b.f.d.! Him, Patti Smith and Joan Baez can all fuck right off as far as I'm concerned.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:15 (nineteen years ago) link

I hate "Rainy Day Women," actually.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:18 (nineteen years ago) link

I wasn't entirely serious about the bees.

Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:24 (nineteen years ago) link

these 'defend the indefensible' threads are for artists/bands/records that get a bad rep in 'critical circles' but were popular at one time, which doesn't apply to dylan (who is quite easy to 'defend').

I wouldn't be too surprised to wake up to similar threads betales, rolling stones and beethoven. its unfortunate but its ilm.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:28 (nineteen years ago) link

Oh, the fucking pain of it all.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 1 October 2003 21:29 (nineteen years ago) link

xxpost: i wasn’t trying to single anyone out it just gets exhausting to post and wonder if anyone’s going to decide to respond with a “fuck you.” obviously there are times when it’s called for (i think using it to respond to someone who’s already said it to you is fine).

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:40 (one year ago) link

I am genuinely asking this: is there no way to discuss the allegations or is that off limits?

Captain Beefart (PBKR), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:42 (one year ago) link

I don't think there's any way for *men* to productively discuss it, tbh, as we have seen here already

sleeve, Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:44 (one year ago) link

Basically never expect better of ilx is how i break it down to an extent.

Now look what you made me do, I posted on ILM. Get it off get it off

Ima Gardener (in orbit), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:44 (one year ago) link

so why don't the mods just strip out all of the posts from this thread since the first post on this and be done with it?

Captain Beefart (PBKR), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:45 (one year ago) link

xp

Captain Beefart (PBKR), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:45 (one year ago) link

that's a very extreme response

STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:54 (one year ago) link

the immediate and sustained turn this thread took for the investigative was just kinda shitty, a lesson to learn from in the future

STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:55 (one year ago) link

There is a way to productively discuss these things as men, and evidently there is an urgency to do so, it just involves not waltzing in and saying ‘fuck you’ and accusing people for contributing to rape culture and to the lack of female posters, or making wild assumptions about someone’s character. We are mostly all anonymous here, we don’t know each other personal lives, maybe someone who is tracking down Dylan’s life looking for evidence could also be a victim of sexual assault. If you take the time to read the actual posts, no one has made the claim that Dylan is innocent.

I don’t know, I feel like I have loved this board because it seemed a respite from twitter-like activity but sometimes O think the virus has caught on here too.

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:56 (one year ago) link

discussion of sexual assault is triggering, period. maybe there should be a trigger warning added to the thread title?

aegis philbin (crüt), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:56 (one year ago) link

yes vhs, the thing for the men to focus on itt is how they're being attacked

STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:57 (one year ago) link

come the fuck on

STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Thursday, 19 August 2021 17:58 (one year ago) link

like i said earlier, this time period has been well documented, I think that's one reason you're having so many people chime in

a (waterface), Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:01 (one year ago) link

xp

You think attacking people leads to productive conversations? If you believe that the investigative turn is the wrong thing (which is my opinion too btw), do you believe you are going to achieve anything positive by just saying it's shitty and you expect better of posters? It seems to me that's more policing than idk sharing of ideas and explanations.

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:02 (one year ago) link

And my perspective is that searching for and publicly distributing exculpatory evidence—for whatever motive or however non-prejudicially—contributes to rape culture by sending a message that victims of sexual assault need to make sure their accounts of inherently traumatizing and psychologically altering experiences are airtight before coming forward.

I support women coming forward to tell their story. I disagree with you that I or anyone else who discusses this timeline in Dylan's life as contributing to rape culture. Framing it as evidence seems a little presumptuous as well.

a (waterface), Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:03 (one year ago) link

the immediate and sustained turn this thread took for the investigative

Welcome to Dylan fandom.

I appreciate your larger point even if I disagree a little bit.

Captain Beefart (PBKR), Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:05 (one year ago) link

wow the manstigating on this thread is really bumming me out. Trader hand etc otm :-(

brimstead, Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:25 (one year ago) link

it’s 2021

brimstead, Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:26 (one year ago) link

ok I’m off my high horse

brimstead, Thursday, 19 August 2021 18:26 (one year ago) link

I like Trader Hand. It’s even more wild west than my real handle.

It’s always confusing and horrible when someone whose art you’ve loved is accused of something terrible. I get it. How do you process it? What do you do?

I think we owe it to the board to be really careful about how we process it. Going on and on about the different ways that you think the alleged victim’s story doesn’t add up is grotesque. THAT is the “attack” - on every victim of sexual assault. And yeah it’s going to provoke some strong reactions. Or at least it had better.

Considering buying materials in order to continue the sleuthing I think is probably a sign that you are too invested in your image of Bob Dylan as a good guy to have a fair judgment about it. Why go to these lengths? Who possibly could have a fair judgment about it right now? We have to live with this shitty stink around Bob Dylan for awhile and no amount of sleuthing of going to counter that, unfortunately.

Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 August 2021 19:21 (one year ago) link

I probably have been over-invested in following every angle here - but not because of some image of Dylan a "good guy" (I've never been too interested in his private life) but because the claim is so horrible (and the available details so minimal - we don't even know the plaintiff's "story," just how it's being characterized in the brief) that yes it would be devastating to me as a fan of his music if it has truth to it. Honestly I think you're underplaying the magnitude of what's being alleged. I won't post any more "sleuthing" if it's not welcome here though.

Shallot Shortage 2021 (morrisp), Thursday, 19 August 2021 19:28 (one year ago) link

I would get personally skeeved out if people were trying to dig up personal details of the accuser, but I haven't seen anything like that on this thread.

o. nate, Thursday, 19 August 2021 19:35 (one year ago) link

Going on and on about the different ways that you think the alleged victim’s story doesn’t add up is grotesque.

No one is going on about the victim's story, because we don't know the vicitm's story. We do know a lot about the person accused of these crimes, and where they were, and that's what I think some people are not understanding. No one's calling the story into question, we just know about the accusation.

a (waterface), Thursday, 19 August 2021 19:56 (one year ago) link

And shaming people for buying a book is not a good look imho

a (waterface), Thursday, 19 August 2021 19:56 (one year ago) link

ILX is not perfect but from what i've seen, posters have responded to the numerous accounts of abusive/predatory behavior from musicians in the last few years with sympathy and support for the victims and anger and disappointment towards the musicians, and I have not seen much in the way of demanding more proof or mounting defenses of the accused. I do think this case is an outlier - the alleged offense being 56 years ago, how famous the accused is and was at the time, and the question of whether this could even have taken place as described based on the facts that exist. I totally understand being uncomfortable with 'sleuthing' but I don't think it's terrible, or an attack on all victims of sexual assault, to admit skepticism about the accusation as it stands now. My opinion may change if/when more facts emerge, and perhaps I would need to re-examine my judgment.

And my perspective is that searching for and publicly distributing exculpatory evidence—for whatever motive or however non-prejudicially—contributes to rape culture by sending a message that victims of sexual assault need to make sure their accounts of inherently traumatizing and psychologically altering experiences are airtight before coming forward.

But this is essentially just what our legal system does, and this is a lawsuit that the lawyers want addressed in court. And when those lawyers respond to issues that are certain to come up in court with "we've got blogs" I think there's some reason for skepticism.

JoeStork, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:13 (one year ago) link

not that i'm trying to defend how awful and traumatic our legal system is to victims of sexual assault btw.

JoeStork, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:16 (one year ago) link

I heard a rumour on this very thread that Bob Dylan "makes" people shovel bees down their dick.

Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:23 (one year ago) link

oh great comedy just what we need

xp you're right the legal system reproduces rape culture. i don't understand the point or what it has to do with how ordinary people should talk about a case although the legal system is a great example of *how not to do it*

Left, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:30 (one year ago) link

If anyone needs some comedy, it's you

A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:33 (one year ago) link

i know i need to lighten up and take a joke and stop being so easily offended eh

Left, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:35 (one year ago) link

the accusation exists in the context of a lawsuit, in our legal system. I think it's reasonable for people to wonder how something is going to hold up in court, especially when the lawyers provide a buffoonish non-answer to pretty obvious questions.

JoeStork, Thursday, 19 August 2021 20:56 (one year ago) link

Have you wondered enough yet?

Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 August 2021 21:13 (one year ago) link

yeah I’ll shut up now

JoeStork, Thursday, 19 August 2021 21:15 (one year ago) link

i dont post bc news like this makes me shut down

i can’t even give my energy to speculation of ~any~ kind because it’s just so sad in and of itself

i think that’s the bigger picture as i see it - not that anyone’s accusing or exonerating anyone

but ilx collectively just has this way of intensely interrogating things immediately re subjects that leave me reeling and sometimes it’d be good if you all just took a breath FIRST and read the room as a whole subject-wise, instead of getting all grassy-knolled out about literally everything all the time

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 19 August 2021 21:49 (one year ago) link

thank you VG, otm

sleeve, Thursday, 19 August 2021 21:52 (one year ago) link

vg otm

I haven't been posting because - frankly - I'm very much in the "I hope he didn't do this" camp, and I've felt sick ever since the story broke. And tbh I'm grateful to the people posting about the conflict of dates etc. because it gives me some hope that's letting me, like, go about my day and eat meals and not just curl up in a ball as I wait for more information to emerge. Because as a woman - and speaking only for myself - I would feel devastated and betrayed if it turned out that a male artist whose work I love, and who I've felt a deep sense of personal gratitude toward at many points in my life, turned out to have done something like this. So I'm strenuously hoping he didn't do it, awaiting more information, and doing my best not to completely lose it in the meantime. And I haven't posted because I'm afraid if I say something like that I'll be called a rape apologist, and I'm not good at being in internet fights, I tend to take them personally.

Also, one of the things I generally like about ilx is that people know each other and don't have to make the kind of assumptions of bad faith that you see in, like, large-scale Twitter arguments. And yet on this thread I get the impression people are reflexively assuming bad faith anyway, and that bothers me. So I've stayed quiet because I'm uncomfortable when ilx gets like this. It doesn't have anything to do with thinking ilx is supporting rape culture. Maybe for other people it does, idk. We women are not a monolithic group.

Lily Dale, Friday, 20 August 2021 04:49 (one year ago) link

i feel that *hoping they didnt do it* element too, definitely going through a bit of that as well
lily, thank you for stating that so eloquently

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 20 August 2021 04:59 (one year ago) link

that's real, lily <3

STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Friday, 20 August 2021 05:23 (one year ago) link

I'll be in the camp of "now that we've had a full circle of accusations (Bob Dylan, lawyers, biographers, internet, twitter, ILX, legal system), can we stop panicking, go back to being patient, and leave the alleged victim and accused their full respective rights ?" Or does it have to be a shitstorm all the time.

Nabozo, Friday, 20 August 2021 06:21 (one year ago) link

Personally I won’t post about it (unless/until I guess something definitive happens, if it ever does). Posting here was my way of “processing” and dealing with the pit in my stomach. I have more I could discuss about the emotional impact but I guess we have other threads for that, and the time may not be ripe for a while.

Shallot Shortage 2021 (morrisp), Friday, 20 August 2021 07:05 (one year ago) link

eleven months pass...

The lawsuit has been permanently withdrawn after the plaintiff asked the federal judge overseeing the case to dismiss it “with prejudice,” meaning it will be permanently closed and cannot be refiled. The move came after she was accused of deleting key messages and threatened with monetary sanctions.

birdistheword, Friday, 29 July 2022 00:56 (six months ago) link

five months pass...

peak Dylan

https://archive.org/details/s-08b_full/02.+THE+MAN+IN+ME.flac

| (Latham Green), Tuesday, 17 January 2023 20:16 (three weeks ago) link

nice!

corrs unplugged, Wednesday, 18 January 2023 13:41 (two weeks ago) link

that's a mean cold irons bound too

corrs unplugged, Wednesday, 18 January 2023 13:45 (two weeks ago) link

This show is pretty freaking great. Can anyone recommend me a complete live show on archive I need to hear from the Larry Campbell-Charlie Sexton period?

Unfairport Convention (PBKR), Thursday, 19 January 2023 00:16 (two weeks ago) link

If I had to pick one, the one at Halle Münsterland in Münster, Germany on October 1, 2000.

Or, if you prefer Dylan on piano, the one at Pauline Davis Pavilion in Red Bluff, CA, USA on October 7, 2002.

birdistheword, Thursday, 19 January 2023 01:32 (two weeks ago) link

great recordings thank you

treeship., Thursday, 19 January 2023 01:44 (two weeks ago) link

i love that live album with the flute. budokan. that is my idiosyncratic favorite.

treeship., Thursday, 19 January 2023 01:45 (two weeks ago) link

he appreciates the plasticity of his own songs and is essentially devoted to live performance. i love that.

treeship., Thursday, 19 January 2023 01:46 (two weeks ago) link

elsewhere on this site i have written about being at the 1999 show at tramps in new york, which was great (elvis costello was there and got on stage for an encore, singing 'i shall be released'). great audio from the soundboard. incredible version of Visions of Johanna. crowd VEWRY rowdy.

https://www.wolfgangs.com/music/bob-dylan/audio/20022342-814.html?tid=54412

https://www.boblinks.com/072699r.html

i'm sure i remember the flacs being available somewhere, or on youtube

Tracer Hand, Thursday, 19 January 2023 10:16 (two weeks ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.