SHISTY - "I Luv U"

the thing is nobody should ever be offended to be labelled as either hip hop or garage. calling Dizzee or Mike Skinner either one never does seem quite right though just because while it may be the dominant styling it negates other elements of their music - nods to other genres, attitudes, ideas, even if they did all come out the same thing.

It sort of reminds me of an argument I had on ILM once over hip-hop's roots in Jamaica, which would up being an either-or thing. I don't see why you can't talk about the origins of hip-hop in the context of both Jamaica and New York, or garage rap in the context of both America and Britain. Or why calling it hip-hop, or connecting it to it, can't mean giving it a window onto a much wider tradition, rather than closing it down.

Aside from all that, the reason why I would make the hip-hop connection here, far more than in jungle or 2-step, is that the beats aren't so different. I don't really see garage rap as a big change or innovation in rhythm. A lot of it doesn't sound very far removed from say Roots Manuva to me (the dub metal bass)--it's just a lot better than him.

(PS I am British and have been listening to British dance music for over a decade. So limit yourself to "jaded" stock responses only please!)

(PPS What really makes me jaded is not garage rap; it's the familiar way it's being written about.)

Dave, while you may take "Dizzee is hiphop" to mean this or something like this, that's you being defensive, not anybody actually saying what you're accusing them of saying

connecting to it = fine
calling it hip hop = not

Dave, while you may take "Dizzee is hiphop" to mean this or something like this, that's you being defensive, not anybody actually saying what you're accusing them of saying

i'd just like to see this music being judged on its own terms rather than forced to fit a box that it doesn't

Though maybe it still is of course! But I think - sorry to go all ILM and use rock as a comparison - there comes a point where a genre superword stops being useful and where a track is forceful/odd enough to demand you use something else to describe it. Like Metallica or ELP or Black Flag or MBV were rock, yes, but calling them just 'rock' wasn't always useful. This kind of thing already happens in hip-hop which is why words like "miami bass" get used - yeah it's hip-hop but at the same time it's different enough that it's misleading not to qualify it. Some - not all - of Dizzee's stuff and other 'garage rap' is like this I think.

Anyway, really calling it hip-hop=just a way to wind people up. Would be a lot less easy to do if Brit dance culture didn't insist on coming up with a new name for something and calling it a revolution every time the bassline gets tweaked incrementally. (Sorry!)

why? its own terms include hip hop but don't conform solely to that aesthetic, that's all i'm saying... it's not hip hop, it's not garage, it's something pretty new that a good bunch of us, who've spent a shitload of time trying to work it out, still haven't quite got nailed yet (as tico said)! that's the only point i'm trying to make and being told that my idea that it is not hip hop is "ridiculous" is somewhat irksome when this is something i've got quite an investment in.

i was referring to your points about specific terms not being that useful cf the MBV stuff...

apart from the bit where he's yelling about being from bow e3 and bigging up the hackney massive (of which i am one)...

apart from the bit where he's yelling about being from bow e3 and bigging up the hackney massive (of which i am one)...

i also call him a cross between ghostface and paddington bear

that's fair enough, but he's still not hip hop...

hell, i don't even know if the ghostface reference will pass the "american-readers-are-idiots" alarm

spesh when she's doing dancehall - my spine still crawls w/ horror at the memory of listening to this...