Simple Minds, classic or dud?

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Okay, we had the search and destroy thread and a U2/Simple Minds war but now it's time for a proper C/D setup. This is in no way influenced by the fact that I picked up the reissues of the first six albums over the weekend and that I'm listening to Sons and Fascination/Sister Feelings Call right now and considering how brilliant it is once more.

In my mind, never has a band been so easily divided between use and uselessness:

USE: the debut (hell, even the pre first album stuff, it gave the Cocteau Twins their name after all) through Sparkle in the Rain, slightly flawed as that might have been (it still has "Waterfront" and a great cover of "Street Hassle," that works for me). Reel to Real Cacophony is one of the most bizarre and wonderful sophomore albums ever, like if, I dunno, Radiohead released Amnesiac after Pablo Honey or something, and Empires and Dance through New Gold Dream is as close to a surging imperial procession through a time and sound as anything else, post-punk scaled for arenas that unlike U2 placed the prominence on the music over the voice and the 'message' (no, really -- Jim Kerr so often sounds like he's being carried along by the music or is cutting across it instead of trying to dominate it).

USELESS: they record some other guy's song, score a hit with it, I learn to hate it from the moment I first heard it, and then Once Upon a Time and everything else from there on in, maybe a couple of songs aside, is a grueling extended disaster. I still have a copy of Street Fighting Years around and it's probably one of the most bombastic and utterly ridiculously over the top albums ever. They started out transcending whatever the Dublin foursome could bring to the stadia and by that time were doing even more damaging things than them, frightening. The recent covers album...oh god, don't get me started.

Trying to think of what influence if any they had is interesting. Jess inadvertantly made me thought of this on the Radiohead round table debate thread because I thought that Echo was a poor comparison to Thom and company and I realize that SM might be a better one, a band who has a public profile in the States but might not be seen as at the center of things, despite many obsessed fans...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 5 June 2003 03:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

As our president likes to say, I'd call them a gentleman's C. But then, the only albums I ever had were New Gold Dream (the gold vinyl edition! I don't know what happened to that), Sparkle in the Rain and Once Upon a Time. So I was only a browser. And they seemed browsable.

JesseFox (JesseFox), Thursday, 5 June 2003 04:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

yup. your right. too comprehenzie first post leaves me with no where to go.

didn't they get sampled by raven maize a few years back. sorry thats all.

gallantseagull, Thursday, 5 June 2003 04:11 (twenty-one years ago) link

Classic for albums two (Real to Real Cacophony) three (Empires and Dance) and three (Sons and Fascination) and a mini-album of sorts (Sister Feelings Call) and I'd start with the last two cuz they are collected on one--very long admittedly--disc. New Gold Dream 81-82-83-84 (wtf was with those numbers btw) still has good moments, but they are beginning to move into the realm of suckiness (some people claim that Sparkle in the Rain is still listenable, but I don't remember liking it much at all). For some reason they have the worst greatest hits collections ever (For example: their 81-92 COLLECTION has nothing before 1983?!?!?). Easily the best fusion of Euro-disco/Kraftwerk and postpunk and an obvious precursor to the sort of dance punk experiments which DFA produces every other month.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 5 June 2003 04:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

Um Sons and Fascination is album number four. D'oh!

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 5 June 2003 04:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

Reel to Real Cacophony is one of the most bizarre and wonderful sophomore albums ever

I can't argue with that...at all.

Paul Cox (paul cox), Thursday, 5 June 2003 04:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

Good summary, Ned -- I was just thinking to myself today, if ever there were a band that needed a tightly edited Best Of, it's Simple Minds.

Even in the good old days, though, quality control wasn't really their thing, and I'm tempted to say they were a singles band: "I Travel," "Love Song," "The American" -- those first few where they're flirting with the New Romantic movement are so great, and hold up much better than most of the club-rock of that era. And "Themes From Great Cities" should be recognized as one of the great instrumental rock tracks of the '80s (I actually used it in the early '90s for some public access cable show, and after we screened it ten different people asked me, "What was that amazing music?")

After that... well, I think they were always going to do whatever they had to do to make it big, and if that meant hopping on the Celtic Rock bandwagon along with U2 and Big Country, then so be it. So my expiration date is a little earlier than yours, though again the singles off New Gold Dream and Sparkle in the Rain were pretty fine. I still get that descending keyboard riff from "Up On The Catwalk" stuck in my head at odd times, and "Waterfront" and "Someone Somewhere in Summertime" make artsy pomposity seem so damn soulful.

But after that, toss it all: I saw them on the Once Upon A Time tour in '85 or whenever, and they were pretty bad. Shriekback opened, and wiped the floor with 'em. If they haven't called it a day yet -- and Jim Kerr doesn't seem the type to stop flogging that horse -- I say we punish him with dudness until he relents, or at least commisions a decent Best Of.

Sean Thomas (sgthomas), Thursday, 5 June 2003 04:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

i unreservedly love "don't you (forget about me)." in my mind, at least, it's the perfect example of a mid-eighties pop song. aside from the cultural-archeology aspect, though, it features some of the best aspects of that period -- shimmering production, muted guitar, echo-ey vocals, a nice melody and sing-along chorus. it's also nowhere near as bombastic as SM (or U2) would later get. lyrics are kinda dopey, but who cares about lyrics? :-) i also still have a soft spot for once upon a time -- which pours syrup on the "don't you" production -- and half of the songs ("alive and kicking," "all the things she said," and "ghostdancing") are solid. the rest is tarted-up bombast (esp. stuff like "sanctify yourself"), so i suspect my fondness might be as much mid-eighties nostalgia as anything else. i do agree that everything after that is unlistenable crap, though.

the stuff pre-"don't you" is somewhat hit-or-miss, but mostly pretty solid and just about every record from that time has at least something to recommend it. real to reel cacaphony, empires and dance, and new gold dream had an interesting roxy music-meets-kraftwerk sound to it. and something like "theme for great cities" was the greatest kraftwerk song that ralf und florian never made. things started getting a little bombastic around sparkle in the rain, though it's still quite good (a bit like what echo & the bunnymen would've sounded like if ian mccullough wasn't so whiny).

Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 5 June 2003 04:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

Half very classic, half dud (more dud if they don't pack it in soon).

I just tried to order a couple of the re-issues online and the bastards sent me the old versions, so my reacquisition of their back catalog is on hold until I get that sorted out.

I have Sons and Fascination here on vinyl however, and I love it. It somehow complements American architecture perfectly, it's such a modernist building of an LP. A huge empty sound that fills up all that concrete and nothingness. I'm continuously surprised that freeway interchanges don't sprout from the ground whenever I play "Themes for Great Cities."

Anyway, I like the Breakfast Club theme, but agree it was their downfall. I'd try and make the case for Once Upon a Time though... I don't like the album so much, but I love the double live release that has many songs from it.

Also search "Hunter and the Hunted" from New Gold Dream.

fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Thursday, 5 June 2003 06:01 (twenty-one years ago) link

I should probably qualify American architecture with "stuff built west of the Mississippi after World War II."

fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Thursday, 5 June 2003 06:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

Sons & Fascination/Sister Feelings Call has to be their best. Everything pre-that is good, as is New Gold Dream. I love the goofy first album stuff when Charlie played like a post-punk Brian May. Even the bad lyrics are funny : "Is it true you're running round now/Is it true they're calling you the Chelsea Girl?". (Chortle!)

I recently played 'I Travel' for the first time in about 10 yrs and was astonished by how bloody thunderously good it is.

Oh and I really love 'Don't You Forget About Me' - even though Kerr's hooting is pretty silly.

Dr. C (Dr. C), Thursday, 5 June 2003 06:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

Huh? They covered "Street Hassle"? Never knew that, but then I only now post-Don't You... Simple Minds and never felt the urge to seek out older stuff. After reading the thread, I'm thinking maybe I'll pick up something from the library.

willem (willem), Thursday, 5 June 2003 06:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

All know my feelings on this: albums 2 through 5 super fucking k-classic.

That is all.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Thursday, 5 June 2003 10:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

The first House of Love album reminds me of New Gold Dream.

Pripton Weird (flowersdie), Thursday, 5 June 2003 10:14 (twenty-one years ago) link

Life in a Day is highly underrated. I too love the first half of their career.

Patrick South (Patrick South), Thursday, 5 June 2003 11:21 (twenty-one years ago) link

Agree with Alex in SF: 2 thru 4

R2RC would probably still make it as one of my 25 favourite albums - jagged and carnivalesque with that last-gasp-of-the-70's electrourban concrete-subway harshness & alienation scattered through it

E&D has a looming thunderous quality and depth of sound which anticipates the best that 80's production was to offer (eg Fear Of Gods sounds like prototype-Propaganda to me)

S&F/SFC was like listening to big-idea architecture
(+ great as accompaniment to overnight motorway drive - nr-empty urban stretch of M6 level with Manchester/Liverpool at 4am while 'theme for great cities' or 'sound in 70 cities' blasts out = wonderful)

their swelling up into tinselled plum puddings starts on some of NGD
(albeit glorious title track uses those tendencies in a way that works)

the rest should probably have been silence

Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Thursday, 5 June 2003 12:06 (twenty-one years ago) link

"Sons & Fascination/Sister Feelings Call has to be their best. Everything pre-that is good, as is New Gold Dream."

Dr. C is OTM as always. I remember the po(m)p and drama of New Gold Dream came as a pleasant surprise at the time but their subsequent descent into U2-style bombast and vacuity was sadly rapid.

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 5 June 2003 12:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

I like "Themes" (which I only have on 1980's Maxell 190 Minute tape cassette, or something of that sort). I haven't heard enough of the other stuff, or don't remember it, to say. Obviously, I'm not a big fan of many of the bands asssociated with them and that time, but I would be curious to hear more.

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 5 June 2003 13:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

Has any other band risen so high to fall so low?

(I could find an analogy in history yesterday when my friend asked me this question: "Is you going on about early Simple Minds the same as Jode going on about early Whitney Houston?" (!!!) (or should that be (??)).

Cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 5 June 2003 13:03 (twenty-one years ago) link

.. uh, the cover of Street Hassle is absolutely horrible. Other than that, I think Sparkle in the Rain is a decent record.

Once Upon a Time - a huge letdown. Joined the ranks of OMD.

dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 5 June 2003 13:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

I couldn't find an..."

Cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 5 June 2003 13:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

Has any other band risen so high to fall so low?

No.

Ned has summed it up pretty well. I used to like "Don't you forget about me" when I was a kid, but now it seems silly and I can't help but associate it in my mind with some horrible 80s yuppie aesthetic.

Nicole (Nicole), Thursday, 5 June 2003 13:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

(Just reminding myself on amazon: maybe not.)

Rockist Scientist, Thursday, 5 June 2003 13:13 (twenty-one years ago) link

I've stated my intense love for pre-foghorn SM elsewhere.

Andy K (Andy K), Thursday, 5 June 2003 13:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

I still listen to New Gold Dream (yes, gold vinyl edition) every now and then. And yeah, Sparkle in the Rain is total bombast, but I still liked some somgs in it. At the time I was embarassed by Once Upon a Time, and haven't thought of it in over a decade; if it weren't for a few mentions above, I wouldn't have been able to name a single song on it. They really did crap out.

Sean (Sean), Thursday, 5 June 2003 14:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

(I think I'll add, given Sons and Fascination another listen this morning, that the contrast between the verse and chorus in "Seeing Out the Angel" is simply breathtaking.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 5 June 2003 14:28 (twenty-one years ago) link

The video for "I Promised You a Miracle" was on VH1 Classic during lunch.... that's a good tune.

Aaron W (Aaron W), Thursday, 5 June 2003 16:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

I (like most everyone else) would go along with Ned's summary. I have a soft spot though for Once upon a time, which is really the same album as New Gold Dream but with added Bob Clearmountain drum 'woomph'.

Sparkle in the rain is execrable apart from Waterfront which is one of the records from that period which tried to take on U2's bombast and actually suceeded.

Aren't they back to doing some trancey electro stuff now?

Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 5 June 2003 20:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

Based solely on formerly owning that Glittering Prize best of, DUD DUD DUD DUD DUD DUD. I don't know about this early years hoo-ha, but when these guys turned arena they were pure opening-act-for-U2 all the way (and I got my problems with U2 as is). Hell, CREED's messianic trip has more of an effect on me than Jim Kerr's (I'm shocked Chrissie Hynde let him touch her).

I totally disagree with Ned, "Don't You Forget About Me," while totally cheesy, is the only Simple Minds song I'd care to hear again (ok, MAYBE "Alive And Kicking" if I get to dance around Bono-style to it).

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 6 June 2003 00:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

I don't know about this early years hoo-ha

See, this is the problem, which you must overcome. ;-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 6 June 2003 00:24 (twenty-one years ago) link

I'm only gonna find out about the early years when someone hands me a copy and five bucks (or asks please). You're OTM about Kerr being carried by the music. Anytime I'm bitching about Bono, somebody just bring up Jim Kerr so I can put it in perspective. Hell, after Hail To The Thief, you might even bring up Thoooooooom Yooooooorrrrrrrrrrke.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 6 June 2003 00:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

Arrangements will be made.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 6 June 2003 00:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

I hate "Alive and Kicking" so much. SO much.

Sean (Sean), Friday, 6 June 2003 01:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

And yet I recall an atrocity on that same album named "Oh Jungleland," which made "Alive and Kicking" seem like a sweet spring breeze in comparison. (Cue foghorn: "OHHH JUNGUUUUUUUULLAAAAAAAND...")

Sean Thomas (sgthomas), Friday, 6 June 2003 01:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

Jim Kerr never danced like Bono! Have none of you seen his kung-fu dancing moves in the video for "Up On The Catwalk?"

fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Friday, 6 June 2003 01:55 (twenty-one years ago) link

I love the everything through Sparkle in the Rain, especially that. Since then, it's been bad. Although there are some really good instrumental b-sides. And they're still exciting live.

ara, Friday, 6 June 2003 02:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

The last couple albums (Cry, Our Secrets Are The Same) have actually been better than I expected. And I still love New Gold Dream.

blutroniq (blutroniq), Friday, 6 June 2003 04:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

Ned basically summed everything up at the beginning. I like New Gold Dream and Sparkle In The Rain a lot. Really the only thing I'd add is that SM is the poster child for the "if the road to hell is paved with good intentions" phrase.

I'll defend Real Life somewhat - couple of the songs on there are OK and are mostly salvaged by Mel Gaynor's incredible drumming (he's #1 on my unheralded drummer list)

Chris Barrus (Chris Barrus), Saturday, 7 June 2003 06:05 (twenty-one years ago) link

Ned - I got R2R + E&D on vinyl, then S&F/SFC on cassette, back in the days before all this digital tomfoolery -
I've bought the first & last of these on CD within the past couple of years, and am tempted to get E&D too....but are there any extra tracks on these 'reissues' you refer to ?
(cos then i'll look for the latest E&D CD instead of what i see around at present)

Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Thursday, 12 June 2003 12:29 (twenty-one years ago) link

No extra tracks on the reissues, for better or worse -- this is why I'm glad I've got those Themes collections that came out back in 1990.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 12 June 2003 13:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

the early stuff they did was much better than anything they did past 1982. new gold dream was their so-so album. and the beginning of their pompous arse phase.

frenchbloke, Thursday, 12 June 2003 13:53 (twenty-one years ago) link

I love New Gold Dream but I listened to Reel To Real Cacophony again yesterday and was reminded of how much it just blows everything else out of the water. Best post-punk album evah!*

* This may not be true, but I can't prove that it's untrue either.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 13 June 2003 00:22 (twenty-one years ago) link

I just want to say "dud" again. I'm worried that next time someone says their name in public I'm just gonna spontaneously yell "DUD!" at them.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 June 2003 00:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

Best post-punk album evah!*

Definitely one of the best in my book, though choosing between it and Empires and Dance is nearly impossible.

Andy K (Andy K), Friday, 13 June 2003 00:26 (twenty-one years ago) link

So as someone who just bought (and is loving) E&D, how does Reel to Reel differ?

Sean Thomas (sgthomas), Friday, 13 June 2003 00:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hm...it's one of those albums that is simultaneously structured and fractured.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 13 June 2003 00:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

Empires and Dance (Talking Heads, PiL, Moroder) is more dance-oriented, hypnotic and spare than Reel to Real (Magazine, Devo, Kraftwerk).

Andy K (Andy K), Friday, 13 June 2003 00:40 (twenty-one years ago) link

"Hm...it's one of those albums that is simultaneously structured and fractured. "

What in tarnation?

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 13 June 2003 00:42 (twenty-one years ago) link

I totally disagree with Ned, "Don't You Forget About Me," while totally cheesy, is the only Simple Minds song I'd care to hear again (ok, MAYBE "Alive And Kicking" if I get to dance around Bono-style to it).

TS: Miccio's Bono-dancing or Paul Stanley's foxy-dancing!

Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 13 June 2003 01:57 (twenty-one years ago) link

i wish they'd re-release the themes collections.

fortunate hazel (f. hazel), Friday, 13 June 2003 02:09 (twenty-one years ago) link

Simple Minds are one of those bands where you can pinpoint almost the exact moment where they jumped off a cliff. At the beginning, they captured perfectly that sense we had of being the first working-class generation to have access to European travel and culture in a way that our parents never did. Their songs exuded a wide-eyed awe at discovering big city landscapes ('I Travel', 'Theme from Great Cities' etc.) that made it seem for those of us starting to study and work abroad that, yes, everything is possible.

This was great up to and including the first three songs of 'Sparkle in the Rain': 'Up on the Catwalk' is an effective opener, 'Speed Your Love to Me' is a great pop song and even the riff on 'Waterfront' is bludgeoningly effective at first. But Kerr's blood-curdling yell of 'Aye-Aye-Aye-Uhhh!' halfway through 'Waterfront' marks a transition away from his previous persona as enchanted observer to being the pompous crowd manipulator of the second half of his career. The rest of 'Sparkle in the Rain' is completely unlistenable, in part due to the album's oppressive production, but mainly due to Kerr's Messianic persona from 'East at Easter' onwards ('We will rock you, little child'), not forgetting their hideous cover of 'Street Hassle'.

Wry & Slobby (Portsmouth Bubblejet), Thursday, 19 September 2024 09:27 (two months ago) link

I blame Bono.

pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Thursday, 19 September 2024 09:29 (two months ago) link

Sometimes I think about the seductiveness oddness of a song like “70 Cities As Love Brings The Fall” and start to wonder if the seeds of SM’s downfall were also the key to their prior greatness, the unabashed pomposity was what ruined them eventually but it’s also part and parcel of the essential mystery of their earlier work.

Tim F, Thursday, 19 September 2024 09:44 (two months ago) link

undoubtedly, but definitely a point worth making! just trying to listen to sparkle again and struck by how up on tbe catwalk holds the seeds of the stone roses. that shuffle in the drums is pure baggy, and i can totally hear ian brown singing the 'i will be there' chorus

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 09:58 (two months ago) link

Speed You Love To Me foes sound great though, some spot of misty-eyed celtic funk rock, gonna pretend its jesse rae.

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 10:11 (two months ago) link

I'm a ling-standing Waterfront hater but the quiet bits in between all the bombast are really quite lovely in a early China Crisis kinda way. The rest of it is charlie doing that horrible The Edge-like non-shredding, sending shards of guitar crashing down from atop a skyscraper, all to the beat of Gary Glitter's Rock n Roll pt 2

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 10:25 (two months ago) link

long not ling, i'm obviously still away in tbe heather after Speed Your Love

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 10:26 (two months ago) link

Is Waterfront proto-schaffel? Prog schaffel maybe?

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 10:31 (two months ago) link

They went right off the rails trying to compete with U2. I did blame Bono earlier but the real culprits where Kerr and Burchill of course.

pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Thursday, 19 September 2024 10:54 (two months ago) link

It was around this time jokes about Jim changing his name to Juan started emerging in Glasgow.

pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Thursday, 19 September 2024 10:57 (two months ago) link

he didn't even did get his rewards for becoming a total arse, as in getting invited to g8 summits to act like an obsequious clown around putin and blair. or maybe that's a plus.

vodkaitamin effrtvescent (calzino), Thursday, 19 September 2024 11:03 (two months ago) link

He is an arse but I can't hate him too much because he's a proper Celtic fan (so is Burchill) (as opposed to green and white cosplayers like B. Gillespie).

pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Thursday, 19 September 2024 11:07 (two months ago) link

Second half of Sparkle is a struggle. Street Hassle cover is no Spacemen 3 thats for sure. White Hot Day is a big old load of nothing. Kick Inside Of Me is probably the low point. Starts off Jim loudly announcing himself like John Lydon at the start of Public Image and then he goes for this edgy rock n roll thing, maybe in his head it sounds like Alan Vega but it comes off more Billy Idol. Bassline is cool though, very Magazine. Whats that of their's, the when-i'm-in-the-air one? Because that.

Talking of bass, the playing in C Moon is my highlight of side two, lovely soft volume swelly stuff, wonder how he played that? Really exquisite, makes me think of Eberhard Weber. I like Shake Off The Ghosts a lot too (its instrumental for starters). The shuffley drum thing comes back, but this time in slo-mo. Very Mark Brzezicki, could actually be a Big Country-side, quite an emotional bit of music for me.

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 11:32 (two months ago) link

b-side. sorry my fone is kaputt

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 11:33 (two months ago) link

I like Shake Off The Ghosts a lot too (its instrumental for starters).

'Theme from Great Cities' is arguably Kerr's best vocal performance.

Wry & Slobby (Portsmouth Bubblejet), Thursday, 19 September 2024 11:40 (two months ago) link

I do like Sparkle, but it is front-loaded, reminds me a lot of The Unforgettable Fire, a mix of really big songs and very slight experiments/jams.

Maresn3st, Thursday, 19 September 2024 11:42 (two months ago) link

Inspired by this thread I just listened to Sparkle in the Rain for the first time in several decades. I have to say it was a bit of a slog to get through! Empires and Dance/Sons and Fascination is their peak, New Gold Dream is good too, it has a lightness that the bloated Sparkle lacks, but I hear the beginning of the rot as well, the bombast creeping in...

Zelda Zonk, Thursday, 19 September 2024 11:49 (two months ago) link

Gotta admit that I was a child of the SM bombast, I still have a measure of love for Once Upon A Time (but nothing really after that), if you squint a bit you can just say 'Oh it's the Big Music, like The Waterboys...'

Jimmy Iovine with his 'hey you guys, I don't hear a SONG, where's the HITS YOU GUYS', fuck that clot.

Maresn3st, Thursday, 19 September 2024 11:57 (two months ago) link

Enjoyed the documentary, but the middle bit is the best because that's where the focus is. I'm a bit disappointed that - like the band heh? - the focus dissipates once we reach the late 80s and it all becomes a bit too simplified for my liking. Kerr seems to have forgotten that, uncool or not, Simple Minds were still selling more albums than "The Stone Roses and Madchester" over 89-91. And who apparently even knows what they did after Street Fighting Years. Did they still have two UK No. 2 albums after that?

Sparkle in the Rain is fantastic, through and through. Though it took me a while to see that. It's my favourite album for Derek Forbes if not my actual favourite Simple Minds (one of the three before it). The majesty of "Up on the Catwalk", so undeniable and splashy but compellingly oblique - a marble fountain done all modernist, like. It's the old 'may be meaningless but sure as hell doesn't sound it so it isn't' 1984 business at its best. "East at Easter" and "Shake Off the Ghosts" still have that 81/82 glacial texture put to an excellent if poignant ending. "Waterfront", actual Scottish industrial music (cf. Big Country's Steeltown), but on a killer catwalk bassline with the business of writing an actual tune a secondary concern, a la Frankie's "Relax". Those wave-poll bass whooshes on "White Hot Day" make it much the same. No mention of Lillywhite in the doc a bit surprising and sad, considering they even arranged for Steve Hillage to compliment John Leckie to his face.

But along came Jimmy Iovine, who told them to knock this 'atmosphere first, song-as-in-a-song-you-can-play-on-an-acoustic-guitar second' malarkey. Kerr seemed to really take that to heart.

you can see me from westbury white horse, Thursday, 19 September 2024 12:34 (two months ago) link

love a westbury post, even when their taste confounds me. gotta say i found it really sad when they talked about forbes being kicked out of the band. someone just slowly fucking up their big opportunity, must be an awful thing to live with. alcohol is truly cursed. was going to say 'and what iconic basslines has john giblin ever written anyway?' and then i remembered he played on cdb's 'the lady in red'

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 13:02 (two months ago) link

According to Derek Forbes he was sacked from the band over his addiction to the laydeez.

pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Thursday, 19 September 2024 13:19 (two months ago) link

haha fair enough

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 13:29 (two months ago) link

A few months ago I did a post on facebook where I summed up my feelings, which I repeated last week when someone brought up a Francois K. mix in Francois K's World of Echo facebook group. He came on to say it wasn't his best work.

Regardless my take was as follows and mostly aligns with most here...

First album has some great songs but too slavish to Magazine and Roxy among others.
Second album is the same but now with Kraftwerk and Joy Division influence.
I like both of those albums and they have some classic songs, but they're not game-changing.

Empires and Dance has them coming into their own, and Sons and Fascination/Sister Feelings Call is an embarrassment of riches. Just amazing stuff.

New Gold Dream is a masterpiece song and sound-wise...but it has a quality to the production that's a bit more homogenous and less interesting than the 3 before.

Sparkle in the Rain and Once Upon a Time push the synths more and more to the background and bring anthemic rock to the foreground, but I still like some of the songs and performances. They're not pushing any envelopes but there's some good songs. Losing Derek Forbes between the two is a big problem. I guess your tolerance for a certain type of overproduced 80s rock will impact your enjoyment of those two albums.

Nothing past those is of any interest to me whatsoever. But I like All the Things She Said. I love Alive and Kicking, but maybe that's as much nostalgia. I probably like Alive and Kicking more than anything U2 did that sounds like that.

dan selzer, Thursday, 19 September 2024 14:45 (two months ago) link

This Herald article on Forbes explains why he, Brian McGee and Mick MacNeil decided not to take part in the recent documentary, and gives Forbes' perspective on his sacking. Jim Kerr doesn't come out of the incident looking great.

Charlie, Mick and Paul Kerr, Jim’s brother, came into the office. Charlie and Mick were both crying, and Paul was raging about Jim, who was not there. I ended up talking to Jim on the phone. Jim just wouldn’t listen or give me a chance to redeem myself. I had disappeared from the band too often, giving too much attention to my girlfriend, and not nearly enough to the band. But, whatever the reason, I was sacked and that was it.

Wry & Slobby (Portsmouth Bubblejet), Thursday, 19 September 2024 15:20 (two months ago) link

Jim on Sparkle is night and day from the albums prior, even New Gold Dream. It's like a stage hypnotist has made him believe his is Bono. There's still much to like on the album, but it's inescapable

What I find interesting is that Achtung Baby has so much in common with what the Minds were doing circa Empires-Sons And Fascination, yet by 1991 Simple Minds had half turned into Runrig. INXS, Deacon Blue etc all had a go at 'doing an Achtung Baby' to some extent, but the Minds seemed to double down by the time of She's A River, by trying to keep the stadium dream alive

PaulTMA, Thursday, 19 September 2024 17:29 (two months ago) link

I thought “She’s a River” was an attempt to sound like Achtung Baby (or themselves, earlier), but that said, I did watch them at Glastonbury ‘95 giving it all the “Lemme see your hands in the air” to a few hundred disinterested crusties (and me).

Keith, Thursday, 19 September 2024 17:45 (two months ago) link

Nothing past those is of any interest to me whatsoever. But I like All the Things She Said

Yeah i always liked that one too, there is something beautiful lurking in that song somewhere. The video is charmingly terrible, i dont know if those were state of the art special effects back then, but they always seemed to conjur up some bbc sci-fi show from several years earlier, blakes 7 or something. Jim wears a variety of different costumes, all of them awful. When i saw them live in tbis era he had tight black leggings, a huge white blouse, an embroidered waistcoat and a giant black beret bejewelled with a large green stone that looked like a fucking time crystal or something. what we he even going for? renaissance space nonce?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tytPcvyJASc

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 19:05 (two months ago) link

rennainonce

Tim F, Thursday, 19 September 2024 19:06 (two months ago) link

it absolutely looks like the intro to 1986-era Doctor Who

the absence of bikes (f. hazel), Thursday, 19 September 2024 19:17 (two months ago) link

they all had naff retro-future clothing too

the absence of bikes (f. hazel), Thursday, 19 September 2024 19:17 (two months ago) link

Oh yeah, "All the Things She Said" is a good song. Jim, Jim, those stripey breeks, what were you thinking?

pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Thursday, 19 September 2024 19:46 (two months ago) link

I've seen someone else claim the Minds in 1995 were trying to do an Achtung Baby themselves, but I cannot hear that at all. They sound like Then Jericho

PaulTMA, Thursday, 19 September 2024 19:55 (two months ago) link

Or on Hypnotised (which is kinda great): INXS

PaulTMA, Thursday, 19 September 2024 19:56 (two months ago) link

I'm going to go see Derek Forbes in November. Probably Scotland's greatest ever bassist. https://www.stlukesglasgow.com/events/renegade-communications-presents-a-very-simple-mind-on-tour-derek-forbes-ex-simple-minds/

i was recently flying back to Glasgow from London and Jim Kerr was in the queue in front of me waiting to board. A man came over and said to him "You're someone famous aren't you? Where do I know your face from?" and without missing a beat Kerr replied "Crimewatch".

stirmonster, Friday, 20 September 2024 03:58 (two months ago) link

LOL, nice one Jim!

pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Friday, 20 September 2024 06:29 (two months ago) link

(xp) There is Jack Bruce to consider too.

pisspoor bung probe prog (Tom D.), Friday, 20 September 2024 06:30 (two months ago) link

Simple Minds did do a 'Pop', I suppose, or rather a late 90s 'electronica' album. The thing about Neapolis though is that if anything it's a roots move, where - at least in theory - they remember the band they were in the early 80s and largely forget the intervening decade and a half. Ofc it's not that simple but I do enjoy it and how it announces its 'we're no longer a stadium band oh noes' from the sleeve alone.

you can see me from westbury white horse, Friday, 20 September 2024 10:51 (two months ago) link

Also,

love a westbury post, even when their taste confounds me.

― Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Thursday, 19 September 2024 14:02 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

thanks! but even Simple Minds worked hard to convince me here because ten years ago i did not get Sparkle-era SM at all. I suppose there's no real consensus.

One of my parents' first concerts together was Simple Minds at Milton Keynes, 1991, opened by the Stranglers and OMD. I've never seen a copy of Real Life in the house. How the singles go I struggle to remember. I do wonder how well all those songs, invisible on the radio in the years to come, really went down to such an enormous crowd.

you can see me from westbury white horse, Friday, 20 September 2024 11:02 (two months ago) link

Ever since I heard "New Gold Dream" I've been on this quest to find a song with that sense of openness, of possibility.

the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 20 September 2024 11:44 (two months ago) link

The German 12" is the one

you can see me from westbury white horse, Friday, 20 September 2024 12:46 (two months ago) link

Yep, I own the deluxe edition of the album.

the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 20 September 2024 13:12 (two months ago) link

The bottin edit is the one!

dan selzer, Friday, 20 September 2024 13:26 (two months ago) link

one month passes...

I went to see Derek Forbes tonight doing a Q&A and live set. He is extremely entertaining and very funny. Lots of great anecdotes. Jim Kerr's ears must have been on fire. He talked quite a lot about Propaganda too and did an absolutely note perfect impression of Claudia Brücken singing.

He then played live for an hour with a drummer (I didn't catch who they were) and keyboard player (Brian McNeil, once upon a time a member of China Crisis). They were truly excellent. Forbes sang (very well). He has still got it - his bass playing sounded incredible and I didn't miss the lack of guitar at all). He played close to my dream Simple Minds set -

Waterfront
Celebrate
Love Song
Changeling
I Travel
New Gold Dream (81-82-83-84)
The American
Theme for Great Cities

stirmonster, Wednesday, 13 November 2024 22:54 (three weeks ago) link

Whoa awesome!

brimstead, Wednesday, 13 November 2024 23:17 (three weeks ago) link

oh man, that sounds fantastic! was hoping you'd do a gig report - god, i would've had mad goosebumps at the opening notes of some of those songs

internet says the drummer was probably tony soave who was in the silencers (who i'm sure you already know were the band that fingerprintz turned into, that drummer wasn't in them though)

Bernard Quidbins (NickB), Wednesday, 13 November 2024 23:22 (three weeks ago) link

it was indeed tony soave.

and yes, several mad goosebumps moments.

stirmonster, Wednesday, 13 November 2024 23:28 (three weeks ago) link

Wow sounds great.

dan selzer, Thursday, 14 November 2024 02:24 (three weeks ago) link

nice set

sparkling hebroic couplet (Hunt3r), Thursday, 14 November 2024 04:14 (three weeks ago) link

The documentary is off youtube now, is Paramount Plus really the only place its showing?

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 20 November 2024 18:55 (two weeks ago) link

Another person uploaded it on youtube, enjoyed it. I'm still quite new to the band and kind of hoping I'll like some of the albums after the first 5.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Friday, 22 November 2024 23:04 (two weeks ago) link


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