Dilettante Trash

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How much of a genre does one have to like for it to be said that they like the genre? Or, put differently, how much do they have to like to not just be a piece of dilettante trash?

― Josh, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Try These>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Great in-car listening,natch.

side 1 Phil Collins - in the air tonight Dire Straits - Twistin by the pool Cliff Richard - we dont talk anymore Bee Gees -Stayin Alive Meatloaf - Dead ringer for love Oasis - Little James Shed 7 - going for gold Blur - song 2 Reynolds Girls - id rather jack Iron Maiden - number of the Beast Tom Jones Delila Belinda Carlisle - Heaven is a place on earth Side 2 Bay City rollers - bye bye baby Coldcut - Swingin' Abba- Waterloo Gerry Rafferty - night owl Toyah - its a mystery Joan Armatrading - drop the pilot Frank Zappa - stevies spanking cliff richard - from a distance Marilyn Monroe - my heart belongs to daddy Cast - sandstorm sting - englishman in new york Bryan Adams - summer of 69 Joni Mithell - big yellow taxi Nashville Pussy-Fried chicken and coffee

― sTEVIE sPARKLe>>>>>>>>>, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

All that matters is being able to get by in discussion of said genre without dropping any clangers. If you're attempting to infiltrate death-metal circles and then ask someone, "Why does the singer of Deicide do so many Cookie Monster impersonations", you'll be found out and probably burnt at the stake. If it's a comparatively worthless genre like 'conscious rap' or nu-skool breaks, just learn a bunch of names to drop, string people along for a few hours and then admit you think it's a load of bollocks, except from a position of knowledge, not ignorance. For some reason people are intimidated by dance-music fans (i.e.in specialist record shops) because of the number of micro-genres they're supposed to keep up with - don't worry about it! Techno bods aren't actually smarter than anybody, they just keep a poker face all the time and just reflexive dismiss the last thing said, it's like a game. In rock it's a bit different because there's so much variation WITHIN the micro-genres that if you claim to be 'into' one, it just sounds silly. (E.g. "I like punk, me. Punk, that's what I'm about." "Um, like what? The Offspring? Wire? Pere Ubu? Angelic Upstarts? 'Sandinista'?") It's paradoxical - in the 'rock' field, if you claim to like a entire genre, then you are a dilletante, because you obviously haven't gone far enough into it to develop any PREFERENCES. Whereas, when someone says, "I'm not really into bhangra, but that limited-edition Safri Boys cassette with the orange cover that I bought at a boot sale in Leicester is the bomb!", they reveal inadvertently that they've been paying attention. What people say about themselves and the REALITY of their devotion = two different things!

― tarden, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

To clarify - I'm using 'bhangra' as an example of a 'rock' micro- genre.

― tarden, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I'd argue that all it takes is like of an "exemplary" artist, which could be either a standout (Miles Davis to Jazz) or a middle-of-the-road (Mya to contempo. R&B). By implication their tastes would run to large portions of the rest of the genre, whether or not they bother to pursue those tastes. Dilettante trash, so to speak, begin and end with "crossover" artists who may be appreciated on aesthetic criteria different from those of the genre at large. Someone who likes an "exemplary" artist but claims to dislike the rest of the genre fits neither category, and is just an idiot.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Whoah Sterling! I can see what you're getting at, but why is it so much worse when people say "I hate d'n'b, except for Roni Size", than to say "The only punk album I own is a collection of Penetration B- sides"? Maybe they really like the exemplar for some well-thought-out- and-felt reason!

Although I'll grant you that's about 0.00001% of cases. This was a rather pointless posting, wasn't it?

― tarden, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

'By implication their tastes would run to large portions of the rest of the genre, whether or not they bother to pursue those tastes' - true enough I suppose, alas, but one must remain vigilant against this behaviour in ourselves (and others, if we don't care about being obnoxious) - otherwise we slip into Amazon.com world ("Like this? Try these!") in which everything is reduced to a lifestyle accessory! (AMG's 'music moods' - 'looking for something druggy/perplexed/raucous/empiricist etc etc ?')Everything must be judged purely on individual merits unless we want to slip into soma- coma!

― tarden, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Christ tarden, the question was about liking a genre, which is a question of psychosocial use categories. So of course we have to deal with generalizations. Besides which, there's really nothing wrong with being dilettante trash. I'm just trying to put together some useful working tools so that there's a mildly common and sensical vocabulary for empirical discussions.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

All I'm saying is, if somebody only likes the 'exemplary' artist but not the rest of the genre, maybe what they're responding to is THAT WHICH MAKES THEM THE EXEMPLARY (i.e.that which disqualifies them from being a pure genre example), and not necessarily an 'idiot'!

― tarden, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Ah. I see. Language slippage. I should have found two different words -- exemplar and paragon would do, and thus an exemplar would be one which stood at the top and a paragon would be one which was utterly representative. In any case, I still find it ridiculous that anyone could reasonably clam to like Led Zepplin, for example, and then dismiss the rest of rock, or claim to like N'Sync but no other boy band, or et cet.

― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Maybe, Tarden. Most real-life examples I've ever come across was a result of the person being an idiot, but statistically I suppose you would have to be correct.

I think being dilettante trash is cool fun and quite possibly demonstrates mad skillz (this is presently unconfirmed, however). Being an arrogant dilettante trashster is a crime, however - and that's the point really, isn't it: liking an 'exemplary' artist and totally dismissing everything else is usually an attempt to hide economic realities behind superior value judgement. It's impossible to keep track of everything going on or to have an aesthetic appreciation for every form of music, and I think most people acknowledge that. However, arguing that the single purchase you made from genre [X] stands alone simply because everything else in that genre is crap whether or not you've heard it is merely inviting criticism. But I've had beef with this before, so I'll cease.

One last thing: there's been a number of posts recently that attack the hyper-proliferation of genres in dance music as being deliberately designed to keep newcomers out of the loop. I disagree completely - one of the advantages of dance music's labelling discourse is that it's much easier to be a dilettante. You read the genre term, find a halfway decent definition and the names of maybe three major players, hear a couple of tracks from maybe one or two of them and you're set! Certainly I found getting into dance music via dilettantism two years ago a much less bewildering proposition than getting into rock a couple of years before that using the same process.

― Tim, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

'I still find it ridiculous that anyone could reasonably clam to like Led Zepplin, for example, and then dismiss the rest of rock'

Funny you mention that - Wynton Marsalis(never known for being a rock champion) claims to like 'Kashmir'

― tarden, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

That is because Kashmir is fantastic.

― mark s, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I'd leave it to the discretion of the record label.

― Mike Hanle y, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I like Tim's point about microgenres, but don't the vast majority of tracks generally cross said styles anyway? I sorta thought that was part of the charm.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Charles Rosen argues in "The Classical Style" that it's the big doods who set the style: Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven. If this is true of many pop genres, then why not just listen to the "greats"? E.g. people don't get told to go out and buy a Nada Surf album (at least I hope they don't) - they get told to buy a Weezer album.

― Josh, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

classic gal asked me 'was sibelius a ripoff merchant ?' to test me - so i gave the usual answer - 'dunno, but his early stuff was better' and failed - dammit it worked for napalm death, the bhundu boys etc.

1stborn's a self-defined goth due to possession of wheatus album, limp bizkit hoodie and opm single. schoolmates also definer thus.

― geordie racer, Wednesday, 18 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I dunno, Josh, something about that example seems lacking somehow. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

YOU GET ME, bitch.

― Josh, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Josh, the point is not about listening to just Weezer. It's about saying Weezer are good but anything else vaguely like them is bad. The other point: you mention people being told to buy Weezer albums, but how do these people know that Weezer are the 'best' or 'greatest' band of their type anyway? More importantly, once I've followed their advice, how would I? This sort of approach leads to the worst sort of canonism, surely.

― Tim, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

That it may, Tim. (I didn't say I went for this, by the way.) One response might be: if you liked it and thought it was "good" (made you dance, jump up and down, whatever), then you could just trust the word of the "experts".

― Josh, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

A-and some clarification might help. I posted this because of some ongoing thoughts re liking whole genres / being "into" them. Mailed back and forth with Sterling about it a while ago, if he remembers. Anyway, was talking to Ethan and he said it would be very Joshlike of me to just like the new Aaliyah album, no other new r+b, etc., which prompted discussion of what exactly he thought "Joshlike" was. I didn't quite agree with his answer, but it was admittedly not based on a lot. One thing that stuck out for me, though, was his sort-of contention that I'm not all that into rap (probably misrepresenting what he actually said, don't worry about it) because I own a little bit of it and it's all very boho whiteboy canonical stuff, etc. My questions: well how much is enough? And why can't liking what I've got an awful lot be considered basis enough for "liking rap"? I like quite a number of rap songs that I hear elsewhere - just don't have the breadth.

Similar questions raised for other genres might work out differently, too. If someone sez "I like Kind of Blue a whole bunch" and that's all they know, my jazz-snob self is prone to say "well they don't REALLY like jazz." DESPITE my liking that album dearly and holding it up as an exemplar of jazz - b/c it's hard to see, I think, what makes it great jazz rather than great music, in general, without knowing more about jazz. So "liking" a genre doesn't just involve liking, but also a certain amt. of knowledge. Which is apparently contra to my idea about rap. (May have something to do with much-purported greater "sophistication" of jazz.)

― Josh, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Kind of Blue might be great music but it also can only be understood as great music if there's some understanding of jazz. I find it difficult to see an appreciation of Kind Of Blue which doesn't imply an ability to appreciate other jazz. As for the whole rap question, the "white boy" jazz tends to have crossover potential less because of lyrics than musical ties to jazz. Rappers who "swing" for example. So Tribe, De La, might be considered more crossover potential artists or "gateway" artists. However, Josh does LIKE the other hip-hop he hears. Thus he likes hip-hop. He might not be an active fan, nor an expert, but he can still like it. I , for example, own no contempo country, but like it when I hear it, and tune my radio to it on occasion and like it. Thus I like country.

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Portrait of a fan: Shoppers who bought the Dixie Chicks' FLY from the Tower Records website also bought Various Artists BUDDHA BAR (Parisian Arab-flavored electronic dance), Alan Jackson EVERYTHING I LOVE, Stroke 9 NASTY LITTLE THOUGHTS, Bryan Adams CUTS LIKE A KNIFE, Gerry Rafferty CLOWNS TO THE LEFT, Barry White ALL TIME GREATEST HITS, Bruce Springsteen THE RIVER, The Doobie Brothers BEST OF THE DOOBIES, Stevie Nicks BELLA DONNA, Sir George Solti WAGNER: TANNHAUSER. So if someone who claims to like New Country tells me that he can't stand Barry White, I'd be skeptical about his REALLY liking country.

― Frank Kogan, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

For the record, Alan Jackson = DOPE.

― Sterling Clover, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

As in he's on some, surely. What the fuck is with that mustache?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 19 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

one year passes...

revive

― Josh (Josh), Wednesday, 28 August 2002 13:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

I am dilettante trash.

― gcannon, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 14:45 (twenty-one years ago) link

Sometimes I get frustrated by my dilettante trash attitude toward jazz. I love much of Sun Ra's music, and almost all of the Billie Holiday I have heard; but both of these artists tend to have a big crossover audience. What confounds me though is when I will even like a Sun Ra recording that stays pretty close to the jazz mainstream (like the song "Dark Clouds with Silver Linings"). Okay, granted I also like some Coltrane (when I am in the right mood), and a track here or there by the Art Ensemble of Chicago, Jimmy Giuffre, Charlie Parker, and some others. But still, for the most part I don't like jazz. Yet because some of my favorite music is jazz, I continue to be interested in trying to find other jazz that I will enjoy. Some examples of major artists who have not yet made a positive impression on me would include Miles Davis and Charles Mingus.

I think the only genres I really like in a big way, where I tend to like the very conventions of the genre, would be salsa, a certain form or forms of older Arabic pop music, and perhaps 70's soul.

― DeRayMi, Wednesday, 28 August 2002 16:34 (twenty-one years ago) link

five years pass...

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Emo dickheads are so up their own ass because they think 'Oh look at us, not into the mainstream' you definitely shouldn't limit your music taste. I listen to mainstream music, Grime, UK hip hop, Dub, Crunk, Reggae, some indy is alright.

― Dom Passantino, Monday, 26 May 2008 17:53 (fifteen years ago) link

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