Throwing Muses: C-o-D

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There is maybe some alternate world where Kristin Hersh ended up dead or locked up at the end of the 80s, and is now an absolutely huge CULT LEGEND, the Sylvia Plath of pop. As it is she's one of the few mentally ill rock stars who resisted glamourisation, and now potters around and makes records which end up at No.18 on people's end of year lists.

Anyway, I bought House Tornado in the HMV sale, because I'd enjoyed it lots at 17, and I wasnt expecting to enjoy it again, and I do. So - classic, or dud?

Tom, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I've always gotten into isolated tracks by the band, rarely the whole album, but they were indeed a unique little combo for a while,...so, I vote CLASSIC.

Best track: "Fish" off the LONELY IS AN EYESORE 4AD compilation (the title of the album is a lyrical swipe from said tune as well).

alex in nyc, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

No-brainer classic. First two and last two Muses records are spectacular. Records between are merely good to average. (Being anti- Donelly, I'm in the minority about the Hunkpapa through The Real Ramona.)

As far as Hersh herself is considered, I haven't really liked much after Hips and Makers. She remains a unique lyricist, but the music seems so tame and normal in comparison. I'd hate to suggest -- a la Erica Jong -- that the decline is a result of positive lifestyle developments. You have to admit she isn't as fiery or great as she once was.

As far as Hersh the mother is considered, I'm normally irritated by couples who opt to overpopulate the planet with a big litter of offspring. Hersh is an exception to this -- the more of her genes floating around the better.

Had she kicked it by the end of the '80s, I agree she'd be quite the cult. Probably just above the level of Mary Margaret O'Hara (who is still alive, actually).

"Mexican Women" off House Tornado still spooks me. The line about running over the hill to tear off skin and eat it up comes to mind.

Andy, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I'd have to agree with Andy on the 1st two / last two album assessment, with _Limbo_ being my personal favorite of the whole bunch. (The recent reissue of the 1st album w/ the demo tape stuff is also quite good.) (Still need to find a copy of _House Tornado_ with _The Fat Skier_ attached.)

I used to whole-heartedly adore _Hips & Makers_, but soon found it to be a bit too samey. The same with _Strange Angels_ - both albums have amazing songs, though. It just seems that there's always that song (or two of those songs) that sabotage the pacing. _Sky Motel_ sounds like a return to her Throwing Muses days, but is a bit lackluster (again, with some gems in the rough). Those In The Know say that _Sunny Border Blue_ is her best yet. But they always say that.

David Raposa, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I don't think I'll ever like this badn as much as Certain People I Know do, but I do like The Real Ramona an extraordinary amount. (Which may just go to show that I'll never like the band the way other people do.)

the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

No, pinefox, you're right, uh, on the money. I think The Real Ramona is really where it all came together for the Muses, where they were able to finally fuse their herky-jerky (or jagged, to use a good ol' rock critic term) style with really solid songwriting and...gasp!...melody. To this day, The Real Ramona alone is enough to give them classic status, even with their decided mis-steps, like Red Heaven and Hunkpapa.

I still like the first album just fine, though they drifted on material between that album and Ramona. For the later material, I like Limbo okay, but I much prefer University, which is chilling and slinky at the same time. (I'm convinced that after the disastrously ugly Red Heaven, Hersh took some time to learn restraint again, with the great Hips and Makes album, and then took those lessons back to the band format for University.) So. Classic.

Sean Carruthers, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Classic x 10, especially the Fat Skier-era Muses.

'Ramona' also marked the last Muses lp with Tanya Donelly...

Jason, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

TM = Ut for lightweights

mark s, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Agree with comments abour Real Ramona - melody, passion and to hell with the herky-jerky time changes. A Classic.

Don't agree about Red Heaven - side one, possibly best TM ever. Will expand tomorrow.

Another classic - "University" - contains best TM track "Bright yellow gun". That drumming!

Duds - Hunkpapa, Fat Skier, most of debut, side 2 of House Tornado.

Dr. C, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Funny band, this, actually. Some people - intelligent people, and all that - LOVE them. And there's nothing about them that I really dislike. I think I can see some of what their appeal might be - the kooky-woman-poet thing that had Stevie T reciting Emily Dickinson to them doesn't much appeal to me, but must appeal to some. But apart from that record, I find what I've heard rather average rock music. Neither Classic Nor Dud (but Throwing Muses)? I'd quite like to hear why this relatively ignorant view is 'wrong'.

the pinefox, Tuesday, 3 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Tom, you got me into them way back when and I thank you for it even now. I still contend that 'The Real Ramona'is their peak achievement but hey, I like Belly too so what do I know?

Guy Flower, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Oh yes ... TM = Classic, of course!

Guy Flower, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Bizarrely enough, I was also going to ask this question today, as I've been wondering why no one had really brought them up in the 9 months ILM's been going.

Anyhow, absolute classic. Probably my favourite band ever. House Tornado and The Real Ramona are the peaks but I also love the first album, Fat Skier and Chains Changed unreservedly. I reckon they had a bit of a slump after Tanya left, as one of their main attractions for me was the interplay between the two guitars and voices, but University is still a fine album. Hunkpapa is the only serious misstep, with all its filler and mistaken attempts at going pop. Hips and Makers is also great but the last couple of Hersh solo albums have been a bit weak.

Richard Tunnicliffe, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

"Red Heaven" sounds like Tanya has just walked out mid-way through a pre-recording warm-up, and Kristen has said "OK, let's do the album without her -I'll turn up my guitar and David, you've got to hit the drums like fury". The opening trio "Furious", "Firepile" and "Dio" are damn near perfect, and Kristen even manages to rope in Bob Mould, who's working in a nearby studio, for backing vocals.

It's not as *finished* as The Real Ramona or University, but probably the one I'd say best defines what TM are *about*. It's a type of album I like - sort of like a Scooby album, but not quite. Can't think of a neat way to describe it, but these albums are usually seen as a move in a different direction, often a slightly wrong move (not a total disaster though), and polarise opinion like crazy. They're the kind of album I seek out. Other examples : "Brotherhood" , "Monster", "Punch the Clock".

Dr. C, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

So classic it's just not even a debatable issue in my mind.

I'd put them on a classic/sacred cow status equal to that of "The Smiths" (not the Smiths the band necessarily, but The Smiths, the Legend). In fact, for many of the same reasons-

First off, stunning and original guitarwork and musicianship (the hypnotic drums, especially the use of rolls for texture has only ever been matched by Echo & the Bunnymen)

Second, the interplay between two very powerful yet opposed figures (Ver Muses, however, managed to hold fast to their musical ideals even after the figures parted, as evidenced by the quality of the solo work)

Third, because no one has ever managed to quite penetrate and articulate the exact dimensions of the adolescent female mind in quite the same way. ("Delicate Cutters") In fact, probably *all* of the female experience- motherhood, madness, marriage, adulthood- without ever being cloyingly sentimental or insipid, or verving into the other extreme of being overly feminazi. Hersch simply *is* female, and she expresses it perfectly, not as an afterthought or a gimmick.

Standouts for me are:

The self titled album. I can no longer actually listen to this album, because it expressed and encapsulated so perfectly a time in my life that I would rather forget. It's not a fault of the album that I can no longer listen to it, but rather shows the POWER of it.

The Real Ramona. The two sisters at their most balanced, their most equal in power and songwriting ability, and of course, the band could not survive in that form. Also the most pop, and probably the most easily listenable of the albums.

Hips and Makers. Hersch wandering around the big, empty, spooky house of finally being a proper grown-up and wondering what to do with all the space. Never did anything so sparse sound so lush.

masonic boom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Gotto go with the Doctor, 'Red Heaven' is pretty good, so a bit of a Scooby Doo album. Although I like 'The Real Ramona' and just am not able to buy the first album (maybe because T.M are filed past the Dance section in my favourite recordshops ;). Pretty good live too, Tanya D. not an irritating factor, at all.

Omar, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Classic, especially Real Ramona, which features one of my favourite singles of all time - Not too soon, a joyous mess of a song

cabbage, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I loved University and Hips and Makers when they came out but then filed them away never to be listened to again after about a year...but I do remember enjoying them at the time. I actually saw them live at Reading once...which was nice. In answer...I'm not sure but I think I'll listen to then tonight, so thanks for bringing that back to my attention.

Add, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Masonic Boom is quite eloquent above - but I think her differentiation between the Smiths and "The Smiths" is, in this context, bogus. The question is: is the band good? - or: how much do you like this band and why? - not: let's discuss the mythology that's grown up around the band (interesting though that might be).

The distinction I make here also has a slightly bogus look. I haven't expressed it too well. But I suppose my point is: there is no difference, really - at least *in this particular context* - between the Smiths (the great pop group who changed so many of our lives) and "The Smiths" ("the great pop group who changed so many of our lives").

the pinefox, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

For a few years in the early 90s Throwing Muses were my favourite band in the world. I think they were the first band to affect me in *physical* way - like a punch to the stomach. I think roundabout the same time I was reading Camille Paglia, and they made her proselytising of clinical pagan daemonic art seem beautiful and true (Paglia on Emily Dickinson could almost be a great lost freeform Muses review - right down to the Amherst connection). 'Hate My Way' is the peak, probably: majestic in its crippled, stuttering prowl. But as an album, House Tornado is difficult to beat. Even the title is a perfect distillation of the *uncanny* (all that is un-homely, coming home to roost - in the same way that the group blasted open notions of the domestic, folk or country with blasts of noise, weird martial rhythms, the madwoman in the attic). It's an incredible contraption made from wood, electricity and the broken bones of the heart. I'm going to listen to it again, right now.

stevie t, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

No, Pinefox, my classification of The Smiths (the band) sv. The Smiths (the Legend) is not bogus. Throwing Muses, do, however, compare to both of them.

The Smiths (the band) = either "they saved my angsty teenage life" or "miserable whinging git Morrosey and his Elvis-ripping off henchmen" while The Smiths (the legend) = greatest British band since the Beatles, etc. etc. etc. and all the dissecting of the legend and the personalitys that shaped it and so on.

I was comparing TM to the legend, in terms of their status as giants of music.

masonic boom, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I still think the distinction is bogus. People who think of the Smiths as the greatest British band since the Beatles don't think of that as "legend" - it's simply their honest opinion on the Smiths.

Did I say "their"?

the pinefox, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Stevie: RIGHT NOW?

What you say above is eloquent and admirable. I wonder if one day you will be able to convince me of it. And I wonder what it would take.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

'Ang on, 'ang on. 'Broken bones of the heart'?

the pinefox, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I refer, of course, to "the heart" the legend, rather than the heart, the cardio-vascular organ.

stevie t, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Oh.

I "heart" you, Stevie.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Phew - there I was worrying that I'd have to waste vital Henman vs Federer time on this thread, scrambling around for the right phrases and so forth and Stevie T goes and articulates almost *precisely* what I loved about Throwing Muses in the period 1989-91.

The physical - yes. "House Tornado" - yes (it made no sense to me and I ignored the tape for weeks; it made sense somewhere near the perimeter of an MoD firing range on Formby beach, late summer '89, wind whipping sand into my headphones).

The most excited I've ever been at a gig - Muses, Trent Poly, Feb '91. The most excited I've ever been about a forthcoming release - "The Real Ramona", Feb '91. The most disappointed I've ever been by an eagerly-awaited release - "Red Heaven", Aug '92.

Right - come on, Roger...

Michael Jones, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Bloody hell, Mike! He's MURDERING him this set!!

the pinefox, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Other thing: I respect greatly your and Stevie's enthusiasm for the band. I like it more (as you can imagine) than your enthusiasm for All Saints (not that it's any of my business what you want to listen to on the bus). BUT I still don't feel that what is great about the band has been articulated. Good things have been said, even if they were about the broken bones of the legendary "heart" (hey - Only Connect to Lou Reed!). It's like the Sutherlands never happened. (I blame Alan Sunderland, as you know; but that's another [David] storey). BUT no, sorry, what you lads are saying about the band doesn't quite square with the memory of them that I have. Which is, um, metallic guitar sounds (but not much exciting guitar playing, save on the aforementioned classic LP that, oops, you don't like) - loping drums - atonal-type vocal style - cut-up-type lyrics - that kind of thing.

It must seem unreasonable of me to nitpick away at it like this. I'm not trying to say they're a Dud. I just don't quite see the Classic bit, either, on the whole.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I should probably explain why I have such a distaste for Red Heaven (rather than just calling it a disaster). As others have pointed out, it rocks, and it rocks really hard. From that perspective, it does it really well, and I have no complaints with that. Following hot on the heels of The Real Ramona, though, it couldn't help but be a disappointment. The band had shown that they were capable of some really unique songwriting and playing, and that they didn't have to sacrifice melody. By cranking the amps up so high on Red Heaven, they sounded like they were trying to prove something...notably that they still had energy after Donnelly left. I didn't buy it for one second, especially because I found the songwriting on Red Heaven extremely dull and simple. I should also mention that I absolutely lurved Bob Mould at the time, and thought he was the best guitarist around at the time. Even that wasn't enough to make me like "Dio". In an alternate plane where the Muses hadn't just released the most perfect album of their career, Red Heaven may have been okay, but in context it was a bitter disappointment. To me, anyhow.

Sean Carruthers, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I've just reread Stevie T's marvellous paean above for the umpteenth time, and, no, I still don't see it, I mean, hear it. Rock Music. You make it sound pretty interesting.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

bob mould's contribution to red heaven is entirely forgettable, sounds like he woke up and stumbled into the recording session but 'red heaven' has several wonderful songs especially 'pearl'. my faves are 'real ramona' and the first record, i don't much like fat skier or the last two which sounded a bit too polished and distant. hips and makers is also amazing, especially 'me and my charms' and 'a loon' which are truly breathtaking. i always get annoyed at people proclaiming sleater-kinney some sort of groundbreaking act of girls with guitars making powerful music when kristin and tanya were doing it years before them. i haven't gotten any of the last three solo records but i do like that appalachian folk thing she released only through the internet.

keith, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Who's the wise-ass up there dropping Ut into this conversation? Mark? Bypass the Raincoats entirely, why don't you? And not one mention of Yoko Ono?

"Not Too Soon" sounds totally out of place on _The Real Ramona_. It sticks out like a polished diamond in a pile of tarnished silver dollars. And it's Tanya's best TM offering, by a wide country hectare.

And it's funny that someone (Sean) thinks that _Hips & Makers_ is a back-to-basics move. I felt the same way, but I think that _University_ was actually recorded BEFORE _Hips & Makers_. I forget where I heard that, but I used that information (& that theory) as the foundation for my breathless praise of _Limbo_ on my site.

David Raposa, Wednesday, 4 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

But Pinefox, I thought you were already convinced that it was pretty much impossible to describe WHY you like something in any way that makes any sense to others. I guess this applies to TM as much as anyone.

I can't remember the thread where this discussion took place.

Dr. C, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Dr C: yes. It is always difficult (at best) to convince anyone of anything (unless, I suppose, they want to be convinced), and it is difficult to explain why you like sth, esp. if the answer keeps coming back 'Why?'. So in general, I agree with you (about my own inconsistency).

BUT all I was really looking for from our Scouse friends was a (favourable) description which was a little bit 'closer to the music'. Stevie's stuff about Camille Paglia is great - but it's great cos Stevie is great, not (I submit) because TH are great (and CERTAINLY not cos Camille Paglia is great; heaven forfend).

I appreciate that the desire for a description which is 'closer to the music' might be another chimera - another senseless request which our Scouse friends will find it impossible to fulfil. At the end of the day (Clive), I have a feeling that they are talking as much about themselves as about TM - who (I suspect) were very important to them at a certain time in their lives and have thus made a kind of emotional imprint that they can't really explain. That is not a criticism - it might be the best reason for loving a bit of pop music (I think it's my usual reason). It's just that it's not very 'transferrable'. I can appreciate that TM meant something to little Stevie T when he was a wee boy writing vast dissertations for Christopher Bigsby - but I can't hear that in their records. (Or can I?)

the pinefox, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Pinefox, at the risk of debating the Smiths off-topic on the far superior TM's thread...

You have clearly forgotten the early 90s, when every band from Suede to Blur was described as "The Best British Band Since The Smiths". That's legendeering on a scale with the B**tles.

Back on TM again, yesterday afternoon at the HMV mega-sale, I actually went and bought a copy of House Tornado and Fat Skiier on CD to replace vinyl back in storage. Damn ILM for influencing my record buying habits!!! Second time this week!

masonic boom, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

>>> You have clearly forgotten the early 90s, when every band from Suede to Blur was described as "The Best British Band Since The Smiths". That's legendeering on a scale with the B**tles.

Wrong again.

I have not forgotten the early 90s. At least, not totally. I wish I could remember them a little more vividly than I do - but really, that's another thread entirely.

Your argument now seems to be that because some media people in the early 90s implied that the Smiths were a great band, they're not really a great band - that was just all Legend stuff. Whereas (you asserted above) talking about 'That Miserable Git Morrissey' is not Legend-peddling, but is simply the rough, unvarnished Truth.

From my POV (which as ever is not anyone else's POV), the Smiths are perhaps the greatest British band after the Beatles. Put it another way: they are perhaps the most important band to me ever. This is not much to do with constructing Legends; it's just the way I feel about this band. (I don't ask anyone else to share this feeling.)

I fear that what this 'debate' comes down to is that you don't like the Smiths much, and I do. Fear not, I have no desire to make you like them more.

the pinefox, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Actually I like this distinction. The Beatles: nice listen to White Album on a sunday afternoon. "The Beatles": irritating-as-fuck seperate John-Paul-George-Ringo Mojo covers, going over the same bloody story again and again.

Omar, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

You are actually wrong, I love the Smiths.

But that does not stop them from having a "Legend" which has far overtaken either their music or their lasting influence. You are just unable to see them because your devotion outweighs your rationality.

masonic boom, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

I genuinely don't understand why people can't separate the music from the 'legend'. No doubt someone will argue that the music and the legend are in fact one and the same, but I'd disagree. My enjoyment of The Beatles isn't in any way altered by the fact that Mojo and Uncut both ran wank-pieces on them last month, nor would it change if no-one wrote about them ever again. I have the records, that's all that matters. I also don't see how the 'best band ever' syndrome makes any difference. They obviously weren't, and it's pointless to spend time trying to prove or disprove something as irrelevant as this. I guess it may make other bands ape the styles of the 'best bands ever according to legend' , but that doesn't make them any good, or make me like them.

If some people/lots of people/everyone except me/no-one thinks a particular artist is the best ever it couldn't possibly change the way that I think by itself. (However,weight of opinion might suggest that I have another listen and I COULD have been wrong all along : "Loveless". That's different.)

Dr. C, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Dr C: actually I do think Beatles = best band ever. (Have said this before.)

Masonic Boom: disappointed by your resort to cheap abuse. I maintain that you are mistaken and your distinction is, in this instance, utterly BOGUS. BUT you were right about one thing earlier: this is the Muses thread and we ought to be discussing them.

the pinefox, Thursday, 5 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

But what does 'best band ever' MEAN?

Dr. C, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Dr C: I don't know - or, if I do 'know', I don't really want to get into contentious territory and tangled up in definitions. I'm no great Beatles apologist, I own none of their records, and I hardly ever listen to them. I still think they're the best pop group ever. But other people on ILM (eg Nick D) know far more about them (and probably don't think they're best band ever?). Don't mind discussing this further - but perhaps (again) it should be kept off Throwing Muses thread?

Totally sublime, forgive-them-anything-for-that Throwing Muses moment which Scouse worshippers at shrine of Hersh have not mentioned (perhaps don't like?): TWO STEP.

the pinefox, Friday, 6 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Don't have much to say except C L A S S I C.

Melissa W, Friday, 13 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

Not much to say - but you said it with such idiosyncratic panache.

the pinefox, Saturday, 14 July 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link

one year passes...
I'm just listening to Red Heaven for the first time in years... And I couldn't resist responding to a couple of posts:

Sean Carruthers - Yes it rocks, but thats not its why it holds its own. Yes, maybe they did have something to prove and in my mind they did. The Real Ramona was a great album, but a follow-on would've been impossible. With Donelly onboard, it could've easily turned out to be little more than sugar-coated pop dross. Not that I dislike Donelly's post-Muses ventures, its just that I think another Ramona would've involved too many compromises. Tanya and Kristin were obviously going in different directions.

I agree with Dr C. - Red Heaven is a classic album. Its raw and fresh, like one of them just said "well its just me and you now, lets get down to it". Red Heaven really conveys a sense of rapport, especially Rosetta Stone. Kristin seems to hit upon something that transcends the 'bit'iness of some of their previous outings. To me, it appears as if she finally managed to give all her ambivalence a face of its own. Red Heaven has a very rich character, indeed. If they were attempting to reinstate a more personal and intimate sense of identity, then I think they certainly achieved it.

Given the choice between:-

a) a "chilling and slinky" male fantasy involving Kristin Hersh, ice cream and a black negligee.

and

b) the opportunity to ride along with someone blowing out the cobwebs during a transitional phase in their life.

... I would take the latter ;)

Nat, Saturday, 1 February 2003 14:47 (twenty-one years ago) link

... The production is spot on, too :D

Nat, Saturday, 1 February 2003 15:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

This thread pops up right as we got the "Reunion Record" in the post, along with the new solo acoustic thing which will be released on the same day. I like the reunion record, good to hear Kristin and Tanya doing those crazy harmonies again. I'm not sold on the acoustic stuff, though. More thoughts later when I've listened to the record more...

kate, Saturday, 1 February 2003 15:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

all i've heard is the "univerity" album; and i liked it, but not nearly as much as the rest of you folks seem to like the older releases (not a single full-on dud vote in the thread). am i just familiar with their dud album? should i start checking out the older material immediately?

dyson (dyson), Saturday, 1 February 2003 18:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

Classic. They're not without moments that feel redundant (if not totally shticky if you don't know the "legend"), but the guitar-bass-drums save the day when Kristin's vocals become too strident.

I definitely wouldn't say that you're only familiar with the "dud album", Dyson. From what I've heard of her discography it sounds like Hersh started with her most apocalyptic (or grating, depending on your tastes) work and then gradually mellowed, while remaining off-kilter and "in touch with her emotions". I'd certainly give the older stuff a try, but it's pretty up in the air what you'll prefer. I'm not sure myself, but my girlfriend would vote for "The Real Ramona" as her fave.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 1 February 2003 18:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

on a related note, her recent cover of "Like A Hurricane" totally rules

thinkmanship (sleeve), Friday, 12 August 2022 16:23 (two years ago) link

perfect description, verhexen!

assert (matttkkkk), Friday, 12 August 2022 23:46 (two years ago) link

also I mis-hear the chorus of “Pandora’s Box” as “milk-fed shithead” which is an insult I treasure; the real lines “your milk-fed shaved head / you move like an insect” are fantastic too

assert (matttkkkk), Friday, 12 August 2022 23:48 (two years ago) link

was Tanya Donelly's "The Party" ever released anywhere except the the Muses debut 7"? doesn't seem like it...

thinkmanship (sleeve), Friday, 12 August 2022 23:54 (two years ago) link

nope, nor adapted into anything else that I know of

assert (matttkkkk), Saturday, 13 August 2022 00:45 (two years ago) link

five months pass...

A boy was tangled in his bike forever
A girl was missing two fingers
Gerry Ann was confused
Mr. Huberty had a gun in his head
So I sit up late in the morning and ask myself again
How do they kill children?
And why do I want to die?

Mule, Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:09 (one year ago) link

written at age 18 iirc, just amazing

sleeve, Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:19 (one year ago) link

incredible song. love that album so much

j.o.h.n. in evanston (john. a resident of chicago.), Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:35 (one year ago) link

all time opening couplet

"I could be a smack freak
and hate society
I could hate God
and blame dad"

sleeve, Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:46 (one year ago) link

Just an astounding song. The emotional power blows you away. Such an incredible band.

Mule, Thursday, 9 February 2023 06:43 (one year ago) link

A shout out to Leslie Langston’s bass play on the early albums as well. Such melodic lines.

Mule, Thursday, 9 February 2023 06:45 (one year ago) link

I think she's a senior social worker in MA these days!
Yep: https://medical.mit.edu/find-a-provider/leslie-langston
Extraordinary player, fully half the appeal of the Muses' early records to me.

assert (matttkkkk), Thursday, 9 February 2023 07:01 (one year ago) link

That’s awesome.

Mule, Thursday, 9 February 2023 07:08 (one year ago) link

I watched some of those YouTube videos where the video maker plays along with records on his bass, and the guy tackled a couple of early Muses songs. Ofc it was fun to hear the bassline brought out front, but also: iirc he freely admitted it was a bit puzzling and hard, and LL came along in the comment field going something like "hi! the reason that bit doesn't quite work is because you need to use the thumb from the top of the fretboard at the same time you see". This was couple of years ago or something?

anatol_merklich, Thursday, 9 February 2023 07:53 (one year ago) link

Ha, that’s excellent. Just a natural, free-floating coolness to these guys.

Mule, Thursday, 9 February 2023 08:20 (one year ago) link

In the mid 90s I interviewed them for a no-circulation music zine - in Australia - and when they toured they invited me and a friend to the band room after, gave us drinks and cigarettes, Bernie showed me how to open a bottle using another bottle … it was a blast and they were such nice folks. K was a bit reserved after delivering a huge show but I probably would have passed out if I’d talked to her.

assert (matttkkkk), Thursday, 9 February 2023 09:44 (one year ago) link

Fun fact: I played "Hate My Way" for my family on or about Xmas day, from my phone. In boring moments we've developed a game where one nominates "the best song ever", choosing something fresh each time. This might have been the first time there were demands that such a selection be turned off lol.

Nag! Nag! Nag!, Thursday, 9 February 2023 10:18 (one year ago) link

jesus christ I told my same little fan boy story twice in the same thread, wow cool guy

assert (matttkkkk), Thursday, 9 February 2023 12:27 (one year ago) link

I love K. Hersh pretty much across the board. Saw her a couple years ago with Bob Mould and she remains a compelling presence.

For Muses particularly, of course yes to University ("Bright Yellow Gun" already mentioned upthread) but for many persons of my age and class and temperament, there is an iconic scene in Empire Records set to the song "Snakeface." It is a memorable one.

Auf Der Martini (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 9 February 2023 13:00 (one year ago) link

all time opening couplet

"I could be a smack freak
and hate society
I could hate God
and blame dad"

the next song's opening line is right up there too.

"He won't ride in
Cars anymore
It reminds him of
Blowjobs"

stirmonster, Thursday, 9 February 2023 14:55 (one year ago) link

xp I've also thought "Hate My Way" is the "best song ever" at times, but it's definitely something that would freak out normies.

I think Limbo is their best album after the debut. It's always been underrated coming after University, made worse by its absence from streaming due to being on Ryko. It has my favorite rhythm guitar tone ever-- shimmery, surfy, just perfect

J. Sam, Thursday, 9 February 2023 16:41 (one year ago) link

My dad brought Limbo home to me from a work trip to Chicago (we lived in Norway) when I was 12, after an older cousin had bought University for my birthday the year before. Those records (as well as Doolittle, which the same cousin bought me for Xmas the same year) rewired my brain.

Mule, Thursday, 9 February 2023 17:01 (one year ago) link

My college station played "Bright Yellow Gun" a few times in early '95 (approximately as much as they played Belly's "Seal My Fate"), but it's hard to tell what their profile was like. Was University a thing in alterna-music circles?

Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 9 February 2023 17:07 (one year ago) link

J. Sam otm re the guitars on Limbo. The solo on The Field, god yes.

Mule, Thursday, 9 February 2023 17:35 (one year ago) link

Was University a thing in alterna-music circles?

It certainly was in the Boston area, lots of play on WFNX.

Gerald McBoing-Boing, Thursday, 9 February 2023 17:44 (one year ago) link

seems like it got a decent promotional push — makes sense since Belly and the Breeders had broken through to some extent. i saw a pretty under-attended show on the University tour though.

tylerw, Thursday, 9 February 2023 17:48 (one year ago) link

University came right after Belly/Breeders for me and was just what I needed. I vividly remember the big Rolling Stone story on Throwing Muses, with its, uh, provocative photos (that few magazines would dare to stage now).

The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 9 February 2023 20:46 (one year ago) link

eight months pass...

I miss the all-consuming fervour I used to feel for this band

assert (matttkkkk), Tuesday, 10 October 2023 06:30 (one year ago) link

The go listen to their entire catalog in a row, it'll reignite it.

Gerald McBoing-Boing, Tuesday, 10 October 2023 22:22 (one year ago) link

I found Red Heaven in a pawn shop and tried it because I knew there was some connection to Belly, who I was a big fan of. “Pearl” won me over big time.

Cow_Art, Wednesday, 11 October 2023 00:57 (one year ago) link

It's a great song. I recommend their 2003 self-title for more of that giant-wave vibe.

assert (matttkkkk), Wednesday, 11 October 2023 04:28 (one year ago) link

Limbo is the last one that I spent time with, but I don't remember a lot of it. University was the big one for me, and the first one. I had a shirt with a bright yellow gun on it which I probably wouldn't wear today.

Saw Kristin and Vic Chesnutt in Atlanta. If I remember right, they both had acoustic guitars and would go back and forth, trading songs. Very, very good.

Cow_Art, Wednesday, 11 October 2023 06:47 (one year ago) link

I had the same shirt and thoughtlessly put it on a few days after the Port Arthur gun massacre (which was near my city). Had to retreat into a bathroom and flip it inside out when I realised the looks were not from Throwing Muses fans.

assert (matttkkkk), Wednesday, 11 October 2023 07:03 (one year ago) link

So I sit up late in the morning
And ask myself again
How do they kill children?
And why do I wanna die?
They can no longer move
I can no longer be still

Mule, Tuesday, 17 October 2023 13:35 (one year ago) link

^chills down the spine at that part

J. Sam, Tuesday, 17 October 2023 19:09 (one year ago) link

am down with a Throwing Muses listening thread

hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 17 October 2023 20:06 (one year ago) link

yes please

verhexen, Wednesday, 18 October 2023 21:09 (one year ago) link

I don't know if the "Mr. Huberty" reference in "Hate My Way" is common knowledge (I only learned about it a few years ago), but he's the man responsible for a 1984 mass shooting at a McDonald's in California:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Ysidro_McDonald%27s_massacre
This song still rattles me every time I listen to it, after 30+ years...

ernestp, Thursday, 19 October 2023 22:46 (one year ago) link

Matt I think I was at that 94 show too - there was merch that I recall was a tomato or apple on the front of the tshirt? And I was mad I couldnt buy one cos I hadn't brought any extra money with me (which seems bonkers but in those days I didnt drink).

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:16 (one year ago) link

I also have the red bright yello gun tshirt ha.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:17 (one year ago) link

hi guys, this revive made me dig out my old external drive so i could hear limbo again. thank you for the discussion and reminder of this masterpiece! it's such a monolithic album of 90s indie-ness and every goddamn song is arranged so incredibly perfect. it rocks out, it does ballads, classic jangly chamber pop, and a whole lot of heart. the way a lot of the songs just drop and change direction is so disorienting and exhilarating —— i could kiss you for remembering my address for crying out loud. i know i talk a big mess about the first album being kristin's definitive statement (and i probably will ride with that in the end); but if that album was unrefined, unfiltered, unadulterated chaotic kristin, limbo is all of those things polished over and made to be the best versions of themselves. i used to ride hard for "tar kissers" and swore up and down that was the pinnacle of this era. but listening now, i have at least 5 tracks that i could see saying the same exact thing about (and none of them are "tar kissers" — though that one still smashes). i was wanting to pick a song to put on my radio station playlist, but i can't narrow it down further than half of the damn album! is limbo her best work? dunno, but it sounds better than ever.

(and it has one of the prettiest/best hidden tracks ever with "white bikini sand")

i had some extras saved on that drive and i wanted to play you guys the demo of "serene" (retitled here "serene swing") so i had to upload it to youtube—
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c94BhagMCP4

i guess if forced to pick a single favorite track right now, it's definitely "serene." the original album version is pretty nice chamber pop and one of the album's calmest moments. "serene swing" though — !!?!?! clattering and just the complete opposite of everything about the finished version. really dig the crazy horse vibes. this fucking woman. what an absolute titan.

"another slice of death, please." (Austin), Tuesday, 31 October 2023 20:24 (one year ago) link

i have not the language to convey what i'm saying here so i'm just going to spit—

that transition from "shark" to "white bikini sand" just has something so entirely period specific to it. like there's certain media or technology that we sometimes say, "well that could have only worked in the (time period)." and i think about that transition "shark" is ultimately a rewarding song, but it's noisy, kind of dissonant. it ends on a long fadeout, an unsure coda. then "white bikini sand" comes in and is nothing but steady pleasant vibes. and it works so perfectly that the only cliche i can come up with is that it only would worked in the 90s.

"another slice of death, please." (Austin), Tuesday, 31 October 2023 20:35 (one year ago) link

I love Limbo too, it hit hard after a run of slightly diminishing, more cluttered albums and they came back ripped and focused as a trio. Everything about this record is a reinvention, down to the artwork, and I fell in love with them all over. Favourite is probably the title track, so apocalyptic and off-kilter, but it's ALL gold. Also loved the fast version of Teller they played on the tour.

assert (matttkkkk), Tuesday, 31 October 2023 23:51 (one year ago) link

slightly disappointed that, of all the times i've seen kristin in all of her various roles, they've never played anything from limbo.

"another slice of death, please." (Austin), Wednesday, 1 November 2023 00:39 (one year ago) link

Ignore my stupidity, of course University was a trio album as well, but Limbo was much gnarlier and more muscular.

assert (matttkkkk), Wednesday, 1 November 2023 00:41 (one year ago) link

def feels like a lost album these days (so does the kind of contemporaneous bob mould self titled album on ryko)

I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Wednesday, 1 November 2023 00:42 (one year ago) link

also hi again, sorry for tangent--

if you like the more orchestrated, multi-parted beach boys-esque turns mid song, and more of kristin's wry, yowling narratives and you've never dug into her albums sky motel and sunny border blue, do yourself a favor and visit/revisit. it's almost like an epic spiritual trilogy in hindsight -- that was basically her trajectory from 96-02: limbo-> sky motel-> sunny border blue. each album gets a bit more reflective and rootsy until sunny border blue contains a few songs about her old band and ends with pure catharsis on "listerine." gives me chills just thinking about it. anyway, yeah: those albums maybe don't ROCK as hard, but are definitely part of the same universe as limbo. highly recommended.

"another slice of death, please." (Austin), Wednesday, 1 November 2023 00:56 (one year ago) link

jeez she has a new album and I didn't even know

the absence of bikes (f. hazel), Wednesday, 1 November 2023 01:25 (one year ago) link

(Clear Pond Road released on May 30th)

the absence of bikes (f. hazel), Wednesday, 1 November 2023 01:25 (one year ago) link

eleven months pass...

New Music Announced

The new Throwing Muses record “Moonlight Concessions” is done, teaser single coming soon. Thank you Strange Angel listener supporters for helping us stay musically idealistic in an industry that prefers vanity and product. It’s everything to us. pic.twitter.com/I8x5frTyro

— Throwing Muses (@throwingmuses) October 23, 2024

djmartian, Wednesday, 23 October 2024 22:02 (one week ago) link


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